God will heal your kidney failure

[El Diablo Blanco]

Based on the content of and discussion within this thread who in this thread represents this statement?

Anyone that believes in God see themselves as being more special than anyone else. The whole notiong of being the "chosen people", by have a higher power, by being able to pray and get what you want.  That God created humans in his image.  this whole notion is putting humans on a pedestal in this world.

When you talk to atheists do you feel sorry for them?  Do you pray for them?  Do you see yourself as more special?

[Skorp1o]

Respectfully, you didn't answer my question.

Respectfully, I have been told that many times, I know that the majority of religious persons believe that an Athiest is an idiot/moron who is going to burn in hell. This is a fact, may be in your church you take a milder stance, however, taking the religious populace as a whole, the statement I am making is true.

In all honesty, when you're an Athiest you are bewildered as to how can someone believe in angels and devils and Gods when theres as much evidence to support this as theere is evidence of the existence of Pinocchio, tooth fairy, fire breathing dragons and santa claus.

No, if I walked up to you and called you an idiot for believing in God, that's not showing repsect providing I instigated this conversation and the tone and language chosen was also an unjustified escalation. I couldn;t care less if someone believed in flying Lizards who control our countries and society, or someone who believes Jesus was sub-saharan Black.

[El Diablo Blanco]

MOS (change your name by the way)  why is it when religious people reference heaven or god they look up?  Before humans realized that the earth wasn't this magical flat land that the sun orbited around, they beleived God lived in the clouds.  Images of God are always in the clouds.  Do you believe this?  How about the devil?  How many times is the devil mentioned in the bible?  The devil is a church made boogey man to scare people to believe them or else the devil will get you.  Did you know the devil was originally depicted as blue as the way hindus believed it but catholics realized blue wasn't scary enough so they made him red, added horns and a forked tail to make him scarier.

If the bible is the end all of religions then why can christians even believe in the same thing.  How many variations are there from Roman catholic, greek orthodox, anglican, lutheran, presibiterian, southern baptist, baptist, evangelical etc....  Each one will tell you something different about the bible.

[Knooger]

Man of Steel, as an atheist am I going to go to hell when I die? I assume the answer is yes.

You said you know some nice, respectful people who are atheists, what do you think about them burning in hell for eternity?

[Man of Steel]

Anyone that believes in God see themselves as being more special than anyone else. The whole notion of being the "chosen people", by have a higher power, by being able to pray and get what you want.  That God created humans in his image.  this whole notion is putting humans on a pedestal in this world.

When you talk to atheists do you feel sorry for them?  

Do you pray for them?  

Do you see yourself as more special?

Well, I’m sorry you feel that way about believers, but it simply isn’t an absolute truth as you claim.  

I understand you dislike the word “chosen” because you feel it implies an undeserved quality of “being special”.  Still, I would agree with you in that there’s nothing special about believers.  

The Israelites were God’s chosen people not because they were inherently special, but because Abraham surrendered  himself to God and had righteousness credited to him by God because of it.  His descendants were then promised to become a powerful nation that were chosen to fulfill a purpose in service of God….no more, no less.  There is nothing inherently special about any followers of Jesus Christ.  In fact there are only four folks in scripture that God blessed throughout their lives (and could be considered “special”):  Samson (who wasted his life), Samuel, John the Baptist and the incarnate Son of God in Jesus Christ.

When I talk to atheists do I feel sorry for them?  Sometimes yes because I would love for them to experience Christ’s love and they reject it.  Most times atheists simply frustrate me.

Do I pray for atheists?  I pray for both believers and nonbelievers so yes.

Do I see myself as more special?

I've already experienced the distinct privilege of others coming to me privately and thanking me for my words and my testimony.   Some have expressed a renewal of their faith in God and to be a part of that is a divine privilege that I cherish.   What I share I do for the glory of Jesus Christ….not for MOS (I’m meaningless).

[Man of Steel]

Respectfully, I have been told that many times, I know that the majority of religious persons believe that an Athiest is an idiot/moron who is going to burn in hell. This is a fact, may be in your church you take a milder stance, however, taking the religious populace as a whole, the statement I am making is true.

In all honesty, when you're an Athiest you are bewildered as to how can someone believe in angels and devils and Gods when theres as much evidence to support this as theere is evidence of the existence of Pinocchio, tooth fairy, fire breathing dragons and santa claus.

No, if I walked up to you and called you an idiot for believing in God, that's not showing repsect providing I instigated this conversation and the tone and language chosen was also an unjustified escalation. I couldn;t care less if someone believed in flying Lizards who control our countries and society, or someone who believes Jesus was sub-saharan Black.

You are correct, many religious persons do feel that way about atheists, but  they’re also wrong for feeling that way and acting upon those feelings in a negative manner.   

Please, make no mistake, I have no soft position on scripture.   I can do “hell, fire and brimstone” just fine LOL, but I disagree with the approach completely.  I don’t believe you win folks to Christ with an presentation of fear and condemnation.

I can talk evidence all day (and I have…..many times…..repeatedly…..for years), but I can’t force you to accept it.  I can lead you to the very proof of God, but I can’t force anyone to surrender to his will either.   If you choose “NO GOD FOR ME” I don’t prefer that and I will do my very best to plainly state that I wholeheartedly would love for you to desire to know Christ, but I can’t force that desire out of you.   

In the end I choose to respect your choices and I do so without insults, jabs or potshots.

[Man of Steel]

MOS (change your name by the way)  why is it when religious people reference heaven or god they look up?  

Should I change it to “MOS”?  

God’s heaven is the “third heaven”.  

The first heaven are the clouds and upper atmosphere.  The second heaven is the universe beyond earth.  The third heaven exists beyond the universe….God’s spiritual realm where he dwells.   There is no man in the clouds as depicted in fairytales and other literature.  That frequently cited notion is simply based on scriptural ignorance.

Before humans realized that the earth wasn't this magical flat land that the sun orbited around, they beleived God lived in the clouds.  Images of God are always in the clouds.  Do you believe this?  

No I do not, but I do believe that all men recognize God within his creation whether they acknowledge that fact outright or attempt to suppress it completely.

How about the devil?  How many times is the devil mentioned in the bible?  The devil is a church made boogey man to scare people to believe them or else the devil will get you.  

I don’t know how many times the enemy of God is mentioned in scripture.

Did you know the devil was originally depicted as blue as the way hindus believed it but catholics realized blue wasn't scary enough so they made him red, added horns and a forked tail to make him scarier.

No I did not know that.

If the bible is the end all of religions then why can christians even believe in the same thing?  

How many variations are there from Roman catholic, greek orthodox, anglican, lutheran, presibiterian, southern baptist, baptist, evangelical etc....  Each one will tell you something different about the bible

So you’re questioning why there are multiple denominations.   Point of fact, the majority of Christian denominations agree on the foundations of scripture in salvation, the trinity, Jesus Christ, the resurrection, etc…..this is the core of scripture.  This agreement goes back to the council of Nicea (which I can discuss further if you’d like).  

Where denominations differ are on the non-essential or lesser aspects of scripture that impact styles of worship.

Now there is a definite difference in theology between Catholics and Protestants.  Catholics put the papacy of Rome ahead of scripture (“sola Roma”) and approach scripture from a more isogetical perspective while Protestants put scripture ahead of the church (“sola scriptura”) and approach scriptural study from a more exogetical position (this comment might get some heat LOL).

[Man of Steel]

Man of Steel, as an atheist am I going to go to hell when I die? I assume the answer is yes.

You said you know some nice, respectful people who are atheists, what do you think about them burning in hell for eternity?

Discussing hell is never an easy topic to deal with….I don’t enjoy it.   Not because it can’t be dealt with, but because with all my heart I don’t wish it upon anyone.     Christ discussed it often in his ministry….he drove the point home.   Still, those that enter eternity and spend it separated from God did so out of choice.   

No matter how nice we may be if we reject God, reject his standards, reject his laws, reject his gift of salvation, reject his blessings, reject his promises and willfully (and woefully) offend him he will still honor that personal choice of rejection and let us choose our sin over his grace.  Although that choice involves spending an eternity in a hell in which all of God’s attributes are removed.....no love, no grace, no mercy, no hope, no protection, no promise…..all gone.   What you have left is a Godless condition filled with the utterly reprobate and those that simply rejected God.   Are there literal flames in hell?  Absolutely.  Do I think everyone that enters hell will be subject to them directly for all eternity…..I don’t believe so (each will be judged accordingly).    I think the true hell will come at the judgment when those that rejected God come to realize the gravity of their choice and are then given exactly what they wanted for all eternity.

I’ve encountered plenty of very nice atheists that would also welcome the chance to spit in the face of Jesus Christ.  So, as hard as it is to discuss hell and as much as I want no one to enter it, I’m without the ability to prevent it if God’s grace is spat upon.

[Knooger]

Discussing hell is never an easy topic to deal with….I don’t enjoy it. 

First of all thanks for your response, that's about what I expected I guess.

When you said, "spit in the face of Jesus" I assume you meant that as a metaphor for not believing in him, rather than would actually spit in his face if they met him. As an atheist I believe Jesus lived but would have no animosity toward him.

Although I make crude jokes on Getbig I actually live a moral life. I don't steal, don't cheat on my wife, I follow most of the 10 commandments just out of common sense and courtesy. Yet I will burn in hell as my lack of a belief in God is my choice.

Someone can rape, torture and kill hundreds of women and children. They can do any heinous crime they want, but then before death genuinely accept Jesus into their heart and they will have a nice seat in Heaven. This is because Jesus died on the cross to forgive us for all of our sins except for non-belief. Even Hitler, as long as he worships God he's in.

If you were God, would you keep it the same way?

[Man of Steel]

First of all thanks for your response, that's about what I expected I guess.

When you said, "spit in the face of Jesus" I assume you meant that as a metaphor for not believing in him, rather than would actually spit in his face if they met him. As an atheist I believe Jesus lived but would have no animosity toward him.

Although I make crude jokes on Getbig I actually live a moral life. I don't steal, don't cheat on my wife, I follow most of the 10 commandments just out of common sense and courtesy. Yet I will burn in hell as my lack of a belief in God is my choice.

Someone can rape, torture and kill hundreds of women and children. They can do any heinous crime they want, but then before death genuinely accept Jesus into their heart and they will have a nice seat in Heaven. This is because Jesus died on the cross to forgive us for all of our sins except for non-belief. Even Hitler, as long as he worships God he's in.

If you were God, would you keep it the same way?

“Spit in the face of Jesus” as a pure metaphor?  For most yes, for some no….they mean it literally and completely…..and some of these are the “nice ones” LOL.

So often when we discuss hell, sin, judgment and the justice of God we often refer to Hitler, rapists and baby torturers.  Am I making light of the evil within those folks?  Absolutely not.

Here’s the thing, within scripture we see several examples of the truly reprobate in society going to their graves never once feeling a shred of guilt or remorse.   Hitler is no exception, but what you stated is true regardless.  The reality is that the truly reprobate…..the utterly evil…….don’t have deathbed conversions.   I honestly can’t think of one and even if one is documented God knows the contents of who we are and he is fully just and righteous…..he knows the fakes from the genuine article.

I hear you, but following most of the 10 commandments is not enough to align yourself with God…..all of our sin must be dealt with as mandated by God and only through Jesus Christ is that possible…..it’s why he came.

If I were God would I keep it the same way?  From the perspective of a finite man I’d probably wipe out the human garbage of this world, but I can’t see beyond that finite perspective to grasp the infinite implications.  Would I truly be just in doing so?  

[avxo]

Respectfully, I made a statement about those that mock prayer yet have never engaged in prayer, but somehow they know it's a false practice.

I don't practice necromancy, tasseography, crystal gazing or astrology either and I know they're all false, bullshit practices. Why is your particular method of supernatural communication any different?

Please, make no mistake, I have no soft position on scripture.   I can do “hell, fire and brimstone” just fine LOL, but I disagree with the approach completely.  I don’t believe you win folks to Christ with an presentation of fear and condemnation.

But isn't fear and condemnation the trump card of most religions in general and yours in particular? After all, it is, when all is said and done, entirely based around the threat of a bully that says "repent or else!" With the threat established, does it then matter if you speak the threat out loud and make it explicit or just wink and leave it implicit by not speaking those words?

You see, this is an important question. Christianity is represented as a religion of love and the Christian God as one that loves us all so boundlessly that he would sacrifice himself for us. But if those representations are true, what we're left with is a chain of almost irreconcilable contradictions:

• a God that claims to love us without bounds, but alas, not enough to save us unconditionally;
• a God that wants us to worship him but who doesn't unconditionally establish his existence;
• a God that claims to be all good, omnipotent and omnipresent but will allow terrible evils to occur;
• a God that claims we have free will but who knows what we will do;
• a God that created the rules under which we are to be punished and who, instead of changing the rules and saving everyone, decides to sacrifice himself to himself so that only a subset of us will be saved.

I submit to you that your God, if he were real, is at best psychotic.

[sagittal chest]

Discussing hell is never an easy topic to deal with….I don’t enjoy it.   Not because it can’t be dealt with, but because with all my heart I don’t wish it upon anyone.     Christ discussed it often in his ministry….he drove the point home.   Still, those that enter eternity and spend it separated from God did so out of choice.   

No matter how nice we may be if we reject God, reject his standards, reject his laws, reject his gift of salvation, reject his blessings, reject his promises and willfully (and woefully) offend him he will still honor that personal choice of rejection and let us choose our sin over his grace.  Although that choice involves spending an eternity in a hell in which all of God’s attributes are removed.....no love, no grace, no mercy, no hope, no protection, no promise…..all gone.   What you have left is a Godless condition filled with the utterly reprobate and those that simply rejected God.   Are there literal flames in hell?  Absolutely.  Do I think everyone that enters hell will be subject to them directly for all eternity…..I don’t believe so (each will be judged accordingly).    I think the true hell will come at the judgment when those that rejected God come to realize the gravity of their choice and are then given exactly what they wanted for all eternity.

I’ve encountered plenty of very nice atheists that would also welcome the chance to spit in the face of Jesus Christ.  So, as hard as it is to discuss hell and as much as I want no one to enter it, I’m without the ability to prevent it if God’s grace is spat upon.

What about people that don't have contact with Christianity:

An animist living isolated in Africa or Siberia.

I guess those people go to hell too?

"God has a plan" Some plan. 

[sagittal chest]

TTT

[The Ugly]

You see, this is an important question. Christianity is represented as a religion of love and the Christian God as one that loves us all so boundlessly that he would sacrifice himself for us. But if those representations are true, what we're left with is a chain of almost irreconcilable contradictions:

A God that wants us to worship him but who doesn't unconditionally establish his existence.

Clear up this ONE, I could maybe reconcile the rest.

[wes]

fuck off you retarded prick

men are talking

[Man of Steel]

What about people that don't have contact with Christianity:

An animist living isolated in Africa or Siberia.

I guess those people go to hell too?

"God has a plan" Some plan.  

A post from a couple months back that addresses your comments:

This is a big question.  First, I must offer that scripture is not completely clear on this issue in that it is not laid out in one book, chapter or passage of scripture.

Further, this question often focuses directly or indirectly on 5 categories of people:  

-   those of the old testament that came before Christ
-   those in general that have never heard the gospel of Christ
-   those born into cultures with non-Christian religions/faiths
-   children and babies
-   mentally handicapped individuals

The first category concerns those folks of OT that never new Christ.    If Christ is the “way, truth and life” and only through him is salvation attained how can OT believers in God attain salvation?   As it states in scripture, Abraham believed in God and to him was credited righteousness…..it was Abraham’s faith that was key despite Mosaic law not yet being given to man.    The Israelites given Mosaic law atoned for their sins and were aligned with God via the sacrifice of the prime specimens of their herds and flocks.  The blood atonement acted as a temporary covering for sin until Christ came and provided the ultimate sacrifice on calvary’s cross that paid the debt for all sins past, present and future.

The second and third category concerns those in general that have never heard the gospel of Christ and those born into cultures raised in non-Christian religions/faiths .  Here we look to the primary traits of God in love, grace, justice and mercy.   This is not an exhaustive list of God’s traits, but those most often associated with him.   It’s within God’s justice that we find the word “just”.   God’s justice is grounded in him being just in that he will always do what is good and correct.   It was the apostle Paul that said all people instinctively know of God’s existence through his creation and that people that don’t know God instinctively know his law as their consciences and thoughts accuse them of wrong  doing or tell them they are doing right.  Given that God is a just God he will judge those persons that have never heard the gospel according to what has been revealed to them and according to how righteously they lived.  In this instance I must trust in the righteous justice of God since he has already revealed his love, grace and mercy to me.  On a sidenote, I wanted to mention that Buddha was born into the Hindu culture and of his own volition rejected the caste sytem and formed his own path of enlightenment.

The fourth and fifth categories concern children and the mentally handicapped.  I group them together given their inherent innocence.   When I read about King David’s child with Bathsheba passing away and David suggesting that as a believer he would he see his child again in God’s kingdom it affirmed for me the innocence of children and others with disabilities that prevent them from making an honest choice about sin and Christ in their lives.  They don’t need salvation because being saved by grace through Christ means we are saved from the wrath/judgment of God.  The innocents need not fear God’s wrath for they are without blame or need for judgment.   “Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. Then he said, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.  So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.’”  Christ also indicated how severely those that cause the children (the little ones) to fall into sin would be judged.  The children are lead into sin and out of innocence.   Further, the primary attributes of God (justice, love, grace and mercy) don’t jive together if the innocents are separated eternally from him after their death.    As believers in Christ we are saved by grace through faith and thereby justified and deemed righteous….like the innocents who are inherently righteous we become like the them through Christ.

I should note that this is why outreach and missionary work is so crucial in today's churches.  What's the point of believing in Christ if believers sit idle and not share his good news?

Again, this isn’t an exhaustive reply, but here it is for what it’s worth.

[Man of Steel]

I don't practice necromancy, tasseography, crystal gazing or astrology either and I know they're all false, bullshit practices. Why is your particular method of supernatural communication any different?



But isn't fear and condemnation the trump card of most religions in general and yours in particular? After all, it is, when all is said and done, entirely based around the threat of a bully that says "repent or else!" With the threat established, does it then matter if you speak the threat out loud and make it explicit or just wink and leave it implicit by not speaking those words?

You see, this is an important question. Christianity is represented as a religion of love and the Christian God as one that loves us all so boundlessly that he would sacrifice himself for us. But if those representations are true, what we're left with is a chain of almost irreconcilable contradictions:

• a God that claims to love us without bounds, but alas, not enough to save us unconditionally;
• a God that wants us to worship him but who doesn't unconditionally establish his existence;
• a God that claims to be all good, omnipotent and omnipresent but will allow terrible evils to occur;
• a God that claims we have free will but who knows what we will do;
• a God that created the rules under which we are to be punished and who, instead of changing the rules and saving everyone, decides to sacrifice himself to himself so that only a subset of us will be saved.

I submit to you that your God, if he were real, is at best psychotic.

Thought this thread was fully died and low and behold it clings to life LOL!!   

When I get an extra minute I'll be sure and respond.   Hope all is well!!

[Man of Steel]

I don't practice necromancy, tasseography, crystal gazing or astrology either and I know they're all false, bullshit practices. Why is your particular method of supernatural communication any different?

In essence, what makes my brand of faith unique?  

The foundation of my faith is found in Jesus Christ’s life, death and resurrection.  The proof of my solid foundation of faith is found in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me that came about by faith.   This same proof of God can be experienced and understood by anyone that humbly desires to know God and simply beliefs in his act on Calvary’s cross.
 
God’s revelatory acts are based on his terms, not ours.  Everyone wants the revelation first, but that’s not how it works.  You must be willing to step out in faith given the evidence for Jesus Christ and your own personal desire to know him.  

But isn't fear and condemnation the trump card of most religions in general and yours in particular?

I won’t speak for other religions, but I will speak on behalf of Christianity.  Are fear and condemnation the “trump cards” for some believers?   Yes.  In some cases it’s not only the “trump card” it’s also the only tactic employed.  And I don’t agree with the approach.

After all, it is, when all is said and done, entirely based around the threat of a bully that says "repent or else!" With the threat established, does it then matter if you speak the threat out loud and make it explicit or just wink and leave it implicit by not speaking those words?

I’ve often seen Christ’s ministry twisted from “come unto me” into “repent or else”.  

When I see examples of lucid folks threatening one another I see that threat made out of either need, desperation or both.  The only instances of threats being made out of pure “want” are those of psychotics.   When you casually replace Jesus Christ’s desire to engage in a loving relationship with his creation with a manufactured desire for him to psychotically punish his creation you can formulate a case for yourself.  

Well, as you and I have discussed before God needs nothing from us.  Since he needs nothing from us then that leaves a possible psychotic condition as the foundation for the threat.  Psychosis is a mental impairment or limitation of our mental capacity; although God’s nature is transcendent, infinite, limitless and divine.  It can never be subject to our finite physical and mental limitations.

So, why would an infinite God need to threaten a finite creation?  

You see, this is an important question. Christianity is represented as a religion of love and the Christian God as one that loves us all so boundlessly that he would sacrifice himself for us. But if those representations are true, what we're left with is a chain of almost irreconcilable contradictions:
 

• a God that claims to love us without bounds, but alas, not enough to save us unconditionally;
• a God that wants us to worship him but who doesn't unconditionally establish his existence;
• a God that claims to be all good, omnipotent and omnipresent but will allow terrible evils to occur;
• a God that claims we have free will but who knows what we will do;
• a God that created the rules under which we are to be punished and who, instead of changing the rules and saving everyone, decides to sacrifice himself to himself so that only a subset of us will be saved.

I submit to you that your God, if he were real, is at best psychotic.

You’ll have to forgive me, but I started responding to your list of “irreconcilable contradictions” point by point and then I just stopped writing and deleted my responses because I have addressed these or versions of these points so many times before.   Some points have even been addressed in this very thread.  

I had already responded to points 1, 2 and 4 and was working on point 3 “problem of evil” and then I just stopped (LOL, this point has literally been written about for centuries).
While responding I had noted "Christ's shed blood for our sins" and then I stopped and thought "he'll just ask again 'why shed blood at all?'," and I've already addressed that point before also LOL.  

I could literally write all day on some of this stuff and/or scour my post history for old replies, but I’m out of gas today when it comes to rehashing.  Further I could do all of that and receive nothing more than a reply of “b.s.” at the end.  Now, I don’t expect that of you and I respect your words, but someone else might LOL.   Maybe I’ll feel differently about it later on.

[avxo]

In essence, what makes my brand of faith unique?  

The foundation of my faith is found in Jesus Christ’s life, death and resurrection.  The proof of my solid foundation of faith is found in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me that came about by faith.   This same proof of God can be experienced and understood by anyone that humbly desires to know God and simply beliefs in his act on Calvary’s cross.

But how is that quantifiably any different from other people's faith in something else? The answer is it's not. And there's nothing wrong with that, but the fact is that you cannot prove that the particular rituals of your faith are any more effective than the rituals of some other randomly chosen faith or even of a faith that I just made up on the spot.

 

God’s revelatory acts are based on his terms, not ours.  Everyone wants the revelation first, but that’s not how it works.  You must be willing to step out in faith given the evidence for Jesus Christ and your own personal desire to know him.

Of course. And it's quite the convenient arrangement, is it not? I first have to believe in our God without any evidence before evidence can even be presented... Would you fall for this: "There's an invisible elf sitting next to me. You cannot see it, hear it, touch it, smell it or perceive it in any way. But if you have faith that it actually is there, then I can provide proof to you that it exists."

I won’t speak for other religions, but I will speak on behalf of Christianity.  Are fear and condemnation the “trump cards” for some believers?   Yes.  In some cases it’s not only the “trump card” it’s also the only tactic employed.  And I don’t agree with the approach.

It's not an approach “trump card.” It's the essence of Christianity's proposition: either you believe, repent and worship in which case all is good, or you don't in which case you're screwed.

When I see examples of lucid folks threatening one another I see that threat made out of either need, desperation or both.  The only instances of threats being made out of pure “want” are those of psychotics.   When you casually replace Jesus Christ’s desire to engage in a loving relationship with his creation with a manufactured desire for him to psychotically punish his creation you can formulate a case for yourself.

The God of the Bible punishes his creation repeatedly and the Book of Revelations quite explicitly states that a punishment is coming and it will be not only severe but quite final. I'm not putting any words into Christ's mouth than the authors of the Bible haven't already put there.

Well, as you and I have discussed before God needs nothing from us.

As you and I have discussed before, we need a definition for the term "God" before we can even begin trying to understand what God needs from us, or anyone else.

Since he needs nothing from us [...]

Except worship?

[...] then that leaves a possible psychotic condition as the foundation for the threat.  Psychosis is a mental impairment or limitation of our mental capacity; although God’s nature is transcendent, infinite, limitless and divine.  It can never be subject to our finite physical and mental limitations.

And yet, this transcendent, infinite, limitless and divine being, a being that you claim personifies infinite love, is so consumed by anger and hate that he wanted to destroy the Israelites (until Moses, a non-transcendent, finite, non-divine being, intervened (Exodus 32) and calmed him down, causing him to "repent[ed] of the evil which he thought to do unto his people") and he claims that he will sentence those who don't believe in and worship him to eternal punishment and torment.

The words of the Bible make your transcendent, infinite, limitless, divine God sounds very limited, finite, emotional and, yes, even human. Why, then, would he also not have human issues?

So, why would an infinite God need to threaten a finite creation?

Great question - if only he could answer us...

You’ll have to forgive me, but I started responding to your list of “irreconcilable contradictions” point by point and then I just stopped writing and deleted my responses because I have addressed these or versions of these points so many times before.   Some points have even been addressed in this very thread.  

I had already responded to points 1, 2 and 4 and was working on point 3 “problem of evil” and then I just stopped (LOL, this point has literally been written about for centuries).

It has - pity that the answers haven't been satisfactory, isn't it?

While responding I had noted "Christ's shed blood for our sins" and then I stopped and thought "he'll just ask again 'why shed blood at all?'," and I've already addressed that point before also LOL.

I would have... we've had danced to this song before, you and I. It's another question that hasn't been sufficiently answered.

I could literally write all day on some of this stuff and/or scour my post history for old replies, but I’m out of gas today when it comes to rehashing.  Further I could do all of that and receive nothing more than a reply of “b.s.” at the end.  Now, I don’t expect that of you and I respect your words, but someone else might LOL.   Maybe I’ll feel differently about it later on.

Thanks for the civilized discussion.

[sagittal chest]

A post from a couple months back that addresses your comments:

Translation:

You believe animist, totemist, and other native beliefs lead to burning in hell for all eternity.

[LittleJ]

Anybody on here tried to communicate with deceased relatives?  I asked them to move certain objects in the room and it worked. 

[The Ugly]

Anybody on here tried to communicate with deceased relatives?  I asked them to move certain objects in the room and it worked. 

Really, J? They moved?

Jesus.

[LittleJ]

Really, J? They moved?

Jesus.

I'm serious! You should try it.

[The Ugly]

I'm serious! You should try it.

Ok, pal. Do I need a Ouija board?

[Man of Steel]

But how is that quantifiably any different from other people's faith in something else? The answer is it's not. And there's nothing wrong with that, but the fact is that you cannot prove that the particular rituals of your faith are any more effective than the rituals of some other randomly chosen faith or even of a faith that I just made up on the spot.

 
Of course. And it's quite the convenient arrangement, is it not? I first have to believe in our God without any evidence before evidence can even be presented... Would you fall for this: "There's an invisible elf sitting next to me. You cannot see it, hear it, touch it, smell it or perceive it in any way. But if you have faith that it actually is there, then I can provide proof to you that it exists."


It's not an approach “trump card.” It's the essence of Christianity's proposition: either you believe, repent and worship in which case all is good, or you don't in which case you're screwed.


The God of the Bible punishes his creation repeatedly and the Book of Revelations quite explicitly states that a punishment is coming and it will be not only severe but quite final. I'm not putting any words into Christ's mouth than the authors of the Bible haven't already put there.


As you and I have discussed before, we need a definition for the term "God" before we can even begin trying to understand what God needs from us, or anyone else.


Except worship?


And yet, this transcendent, infinite, limitless and divine being, a being that you claim personifies infinite love, is so consumed by anger and hate that he wanted to destroy the Israelites (until Moses, a non-transcendent, finite, non-divine being, intervened (Exodus 32) and calmed him down, causing him to "repent[ed] of the evil which he thought to do unto his people") and he claims that he will sentence those who don't believe in and worship him to eternal punishment and torment.

The words of the Bible make your transcendent, infinite, limitless, divine God sounds very limited, finite, emotional and, yes, even human. Why, then, would he also not have human issues?


Great question - if only he could answer us...



It has - pity that the answers haven't been satisfactory, isn't it?


I would have... we've had danced to this song before, you and I. It's another question that hasn't been sufficiently answered.


Thanks for the civilized discussion.

I'm going to consider your replies thoroughly and also locate some of my previous postings in my post history to assist me.  

It's much easier to copy and paste than write out 5000 new words......I hope I don't write 5000 words LOL!!  

It's always a million times easier to ask several questions or make several brief comments than it is to respond with good, concise yet semi-exhaustive explanations.  But I'm on this side of it so I'll suck it up!