Author Topic: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case  (Read 5872 times)

bears

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2014, 10:18:39 AM »
"When I tell people I’m a feminist, they look at me like I’m a witch that set my hair on fire. I understand the reaction. The name conjures images for some of a conspiracy to elevate women and demote men, but true feminists encompass men and women alike. You, the reader, may even be a feminist. If you think the pressure placed on men to be strong and not show emotion is wrong, you’re a feminist. If you think women should be held to the same standards as men in sexual abuse and domestic violence cases, you’re a feminist. It’s all about defying patriarchal standards for both genders, and true proponents of the philosophy have managed to achieve a lot of good.
 However, there is another breed of feminist with an agenda that runs counter to the principles of feminism, and they are as wrong as they are crazy. These women give feminists a bad name, much like how current liberals have bastardized the term, leaving us classical liberals to adopt the name ‘libertarian.’ This recent Hobby Lobby decision brought out the crazies in droves, and attempting to address their manufactured outrage is something you should do at your own risk. Those who have tried to do so on social media know exactly what I’m talking about. It’s like walking through a field of land mines that look and talk like Rachel Maddow.
 I was accused of being a victim of libertarian propaganda and sending women back to the dark ages over my support of the Supreme Court decision. I was told birth control pills were “a human right.” As Inigo Montoya would say, they keep using that word. I don’t think it means what they think it means. I must have missed “birth control” the last time I perused the Bill of Rights. Yes, women have a right to buy birth control. No, others aren’t obligated to buy it for them. What should be a fairly simple concept is lost on women stirred into a frenzy by a media that relishes divisiveness.
 While the majority of their comments were downright headache inducing, what particular roused my ire were their attempts to say that the company’s decision to continue covering Viagra and vasectomies for men was a double standard.
 First, let’s clear up what is and isn’t covered under Hobby Lobby’s new plan.
 It doesn’t affect:
• Most birth control pills
• Condoms
• Sponges
• Sterilization
 The only drugs Hobby Lobby are choosing not to cover are intrauterine devices and the morning-after pills Ella and Plan B. They believe these drugs cause abortions by preventing fertilized eggs from attaching to the uterus. They are not against preventative measures, as evidenced by their continued coverage of vasectomies for men and birth control for women.
 As for their support of Viagra, it should not be that surprising, given their Christian stance. It’s right there in Genesis. “Be fruitful and multiply.” If there were a female equivalent to Viagra that Hobby Lobby denied coverage for, that would be another matter, but IUD’s and morning-after pills cannot be equated to a libido booster.
 It hurts to see my female friends manipulated so easily by the left into thinking that a company’s decision to not cover IUD’s and morning-after pills is somehow an attack against women. It is not. The Supreme Court’s decision for Hobby Lobby is correct under the First Amendment’s protection of religious freedom. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” This ruling states that these people cannot be forced to do something that violates their perceived moral responsibility.
 The indignant response of women to this decision is especially disheartening when you look at what the government is doing to actual human rights. The government can threaten every American with incarceration at the point of a gun to pay taxes, which are used to bust down people’s doors in the middle of the night during a no-knock raid, order drone strikes on children overseas, or provide money and weapons to Syrian rebels. All Americans should be applauding the broad precedent set by this case, because it means that maybe one day, you, me, and everybody else will finally be free from having to pay our hard-earned money to support the state’s values of death, slavery, and the pursuit of misery."


Archer77

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2014, 12:45:49 PM »
The viagra comparison is thrown around a lot and its one of the poorest arguments.  Viagra is not perscribed to a person unless they have a medical condition which requires it. Birth control perscribed for the purpose of preventing pregnancy does not treat a medical condition.  A better comparison is peopecia for hair loss.   Finasteride for prostate enlargement is a recognized medical condition and covered by insurance while using finasteride for hair loss is not covered by insurance.
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bears

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2014, 02:48:25 PM »
this may sound weird but i'm honestly surprised at how disingenuous and downright dishonest liberals have been about this case.  I honestly was starting to agree with a lot of their points until I actually started to find out the facts of the case.  wow.  this is all a bunch of bullshit. 

RRKore

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2014, 03:10:47 PM »
this may sound weird but i'm honestly surprised at how disingenuous and downright dishonest liberals have been about this case.  I honestly was starting to agree with a lot of their points until I actually started to find out the facts of the case.  wow.  this is all a bunch of bullshit. 

Hey hey Bears,  this new info from an AP article I've excerpted below doesn't impact your opinion about whether anyone should have birth control bought for them but you may be interested to learn that the ruling isn't as narrow as it seemed on Monday in that it now seems that the ruling does not only apply to only 4 of the 20 methods of birth control.  (At least not for the closely-held businesses other than Hobby Lobby that are challenging the law in court.)

Associated Press
July 1, 2014 10:23 AM

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court on Tuesday confirmed that its decision a day earlier extending religious rights to closely held corporations applies broadly to the contraceptive coverage requirement in the new health care law, not just the handful of methods the justices considered in their ruling.
...


More at:
http://news.yahoo.com/justices-act-other-health-law-mandate-cases-133633160--politics.html

RRKore

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2014, 03:26:10 PM »
The viagra comparison is thrown around a lot and its one of the poorest arguments.  Viagra is not perscribed to a person unless they have a medical condition which requires it. Birth control perscribed for the purpose of preventing pregnancy does not treat a medical condition.  A better comparison is peopecia for hair loss.   Finasteride for prostate enlargement is a recognized medical condition and covered by insurance while using finasteride for hair loss is not covered by insurance.

Are you saying that you think that healthcare insurance should pay only for treatment of a "medical condition"? 

And by your reckoning, pregnancy is not a medical condition since one can't call it an illness?

Hmmm, it's got to be a little more complicated than that, otherwise a lot of preventive medicine, wouldn't it? 

Archer77

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2014, 03:30:25 PM »
Are you saying that you think that healthcare insurance should pay only for treatment of a "medical condition"?  

And by your reckoning, pregnancy is not a medical condition since one can't call it an illness?

Hmmm, it's got to be a little more complicated than that, otherwise a lot of preventive medicine, wouldn't it?  

Pregnancy is a condition that requires medical attention.  Preventing pregnancy is not.  Illness is your word.  I never used the term.   Name a preventive medicine covered by insurance that is perscribed to prevent a condition someone doesnt have early signs for or is unlikely to get?
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RRKore

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2014, 03:43:28 PM »
Pregnancy is a condition that requires medical attention.  Preventing pregnancy is not.  Illness is your word.  I never used the term.   Name a preventive medicine covered by insurance that is perscribed to prevent a condition someone doesnt have early signs for or is unlikely to get?

You're right, you did not use the word illness.

But you're contending that healthcare insurance shouldn't be covering the prevention of a condition that requires medical attention?

Can you please rephrase your last question?  I'm not sure I understand.  (But, as an old man, I'm just itching to use a colonoscopy as an example if I can, lol.)

Archer77

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2014, 03:50:53 PM »
You're right, you did not use the word illness.

But you're contending that healthcare insurance shouldn't be covering the prevention of a condition that requires medical attention?

Can you please rephrase your last question?  I'm not sure I understand.  (But, as an old man, I'm just itching to use a colonoscopy as an example if I can, lol.)

Im saying nothing of the sort.  Name a preventative medicine that is prescribed to a patient by a doctor and covered by insurance to a person who has no signs of a potential medical condition?  Anyone who is perscribed preventative medicine is given that medicine because they show symptoms whether early or not of a medical condition that requires medical intervention to prevent or treat.   Birth control does not qualify.
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Dos Equis

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2014, 03:57:12 PM »
this may sound weird but i'm honestly surprised at how disingenuous and downright dishonest liberals have been about this case.  I honestly was starting to agree with a lot of their points until I actually started to find out the facts of the case.  wow.  this is all a bunch of bullshit. 

Completely agree.  Had the same experience. 

RRKore

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2014, 04:00:57 PM »
Im saying nothing of the sort.  Name a preventative medicine that is prescribed to a patient by a doctor and covered by insurance to a person who has no signs of a potential medical condition?  Anyone who is perscribed preventative medicine is given that medicine because they show symptoms whether early or not of a medical condition that requires medical intervention to prevent or treat.   Birth control does not qualify.

Hepatitis vaccinations and the like for overseas travelers.   What do I win?

Archer77

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2014, 04:06:45 PM »
Hepatitis vaccinations and the like for overseas travelers.   What do I win?


You don't win anything because you prove my point.   The potential for a medical condition is there because the traveler may come into contact with a virus.  I would argue that since the person is choosing to travel of their own free will he or she should pay for their own inoculation.  Anyway, this is not a fair comparison to birth control.
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RRKore

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2014, 04:16:12 PM »

You don't win anything because you prove my point.   The potential for a medical condition is there because the traveler may come into contact with a virus.  I would argue that since the person is choosing to travel of their own free will he or she should pay for their own inoculation.  Anyway, this is not a fair comparison to birth control.

Hey mang, just trying to answer your question which was "Name a preventative medicine that is prescribed to a patient by a doctor and covered by insurance to a person who has no signs of a potential medical condition?"

And, seems to me, nearly all vaccinations would be an answer as would almost any check-up not prompted by some complaint.

Archer77

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2014, 03:48:05 AM »
Hey mang, just trying to answer your question which was "Name a preventative medicine that is prescribed to a patient by a doctor and covered by insurance to a person who has no signs of a potential medical condition?"

And, seems to me, nearly all vaccinations would be an answer as would almost any check-up not prompted by some complaint.

Mang?   Arent you old? Its a horrible comparison because it has no relation to birth control.  Wellness check ups arent comparable to birth control either.  Vaccinations and check ups are done to maintain the wellness of the patient and/or determine a patients current state of health in order to to establish whether the patients current state of health has changed . Birth control for pregnancy prevention doesn't do any of this.
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RRKore

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2014, 08:27:54 AM »
Mang?   Arent you old? Its a horrible comparison because it has no relation to birth control.  Wellness check ups arent comparable to birth control either.  Vaccinations and check ups are done to maintain the wellness of the patient and/or determine a patients current state of health in order to to establish whether the patients current state of health has changed . Birth control for pregnancy prevention doesn't do any of this.

Yer movin' the goalposts, mang.  But that's OK because this shouldn't just become an exercise in if Archer can come up with a comprehensive but succinct rule for what health insurance should cover (while making sure pregnancy prevention isn't part of it).

If you ask me, pregnancy IS a medical condition that some would like to avoid so birth control methods, especially the cheaper ones, SHOULD be covered by healthcare insurance.  Especially since child birth IS covered and that's a hell of lot more expensive than birth control.

Oh well, as a dood (am I too old to write that in your seemingly not-so-open-minded world?, lol) it doesn't bother me much since I can't get pregnant.

How, though, do you think women will react to all of this?  Get Out The Vote, indeed!

Sheesh, the fact that we're even discussing this is a victory of sorts for the left, don't ya think?

flipper5470

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2014, 09:42:43 AM »
In the vast majority of cases, birth control isn't used to address a specific health condition.   It's used by choice...the woman taking it's life will go on as before, unless she does the old boom-chicka-chicka...which is a another choice.   My insurance won't cover me to buy twinkies so I can get fat, but they will pay for the drugs to keep me going if I become obese.

Mr. MB

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2014, 10:32:10 AM »
Hobby Lobby is a business...not a church.  If it was ruled in their favor, you can bet that every business out there would claim the same shit. 


Hobby Lobby is only concerned about their bottom line in the guise of "religious freedom".  Fuck them and fuck every other flat earther who believes this garbage

Vince I believe Hobby Lobby (a privately held family corporation) has about 19 birth control RXs in their coverage. Its only the 4 that abort that they had a problem with.The cost each is about $9 for the user....not a back breaker. Has zip to do with the bottom line.  Even Alan Dershowitz the Harvard Law liberal says that we are confusing emotional political belief with the Law. He agrees with the Supreme Court on this one. And I agree with Deshowitz. BTW I am an agnostic Libertarian not a "flat earther". Neither is Alan Dershowitz.

Dos Equis

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2014, 02:51:05 PM »
Harry Reid Issues Bizarre Threat About Hobby Lobby, Then Makes Absurd Gaffe About How US Gov’t Works
By Caroline Schaeffer 

Rattling off a laundry list of legislation the Senate needs to tackle, Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) made it clear that he is dismayed by the Supreme Court’s ruling that Hobby Lobby has the right to opt out of government-mandated reproductive services on religious freedom grounds.

In classic Harry Reid fashion, it appears that the Senate Majority leader is unaware that there are three separate branches of government, and might be a bit confused about what the Supreme Court does.

We have so much to address over the coming weeks, Mr. President. Sportsmen’s bill denied, the highway bill, emergency supplemental, manufacturing legislation… we going to do something about the Hobby Lobby legislation, we need to correct.

Hobby Lobby… legislation? Senator Reid, I don’t think you know how this works. The Senate cannot undo a decision made by the Supreme Court, unless it wants to act outside of the Constitution. Not a problem for some in the Democratic Party, but there you have it.

Here’s a refresher course, Mr. Reid, in case you need some brushing up on high school civics.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/07/154671-uh-oh-watch-harry-reid-says-hes-going-something-hobby-lobby/

Archer77

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2014, 03:29:38 PM »
Yer movin' the goalposts, mang.  But that's OK because this shouldn't just become an exercise in if Archer can come up with a comprehensive but succinct rule for what health insurance should cover (while making sure pregnancy prevention isn't part of it).

If you ask me, pregnancy IS a medical condition that some would like to avoid so birth control methods, especially the cheaper ones, SHOULD be covered by healthcare insurance.  Especially since child birth IS covered and that's a hell of lot more expensive than birth control.

Oh well, as a dood (am I too old to write that in your seemingly not-so-open-minded world?, lol) it doesn't bother me much since I can't get pregnant.

How, though, do you think women will react to all of this?  Get Out The Vote, indeed!

Sheesh, the fact that we're even discussing this is a victory of sorts for the left, don't ya think?

Im not moving any goal posts.  Vaccinations are given because there is a legitimate health concern, particularly for the young and elderly.  And there are no alternative treatments.  Vaccination is the only option.  The potential for a future health issue is highly likely otherwise.  The same doesnt apply unless a woman has a condition where pregnancy can directly endanger her life or cause death. Exposure to a virus is generally beyond a persons control unless they live in quarantine.  The same cant be said for pregnancy. 



You can help yourself from having your little passive aggressive tantrums. 
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avxo

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2014, 03:43:02 PM »
Harry Reid Issues Bizarre Threat About Hobby Lobby, Then Makes Absurd Gaffe About How US Gov’t Works
By Caroline Schaeffer 

[...]The Senate cannot undo a decision made by the Supreme Court, unless it wants to act outside of the Constitution.[...]

This isn't entirely correct. To be sure, they can't just wave their hands and directly undo a decision but they aren't powerless either: Congress is free to draft and pass new laws, and the Supreme Court which could affect previous decisions. If they drafted the text carefully then they could essentially twist the Court's arm. Even in Constitutional case Congress can still act: it can begin the process to adopt an Amendment to the Constitution. An Amendment would change the calculus and could, potentially, completely remove the matter from the purview of the Court. You might find this paper to be of interest.

With all that said, ugh... Harry Reid. He's almost out the door, but it drives me crazy to think that he could have already been kicked out if it weren't for the insane primary voters that nominated a complete and utter nutjob like Sharron Angle. A sensible Republican candidate could have beaten Reid in 2010.

Dos Equis

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2014, 06:01:45 PM »
This isn't entirely correct. To be sure, they can't just wave their hands and directly undo a decision but they aren't powerless either: Congress is free to draft and pass new laws, and the Supreme Court which could affect previous decisions. If they drafted the text carefully then they could essentially twist the Court's arm. Even in Constitutional case Congress can still act: it can begin the process to adopt an Amendment to the Constitution. An Amendment would change the calculus and could, potentially, completely remove the matter from the purview of the Court. You might find this paper to be of interest.

With all that said, ugh... Harry Reid. He's almost out the door, but it drives me crazy to think that he could have already been kicked out if it weren't for the insane primary voters that nominated a complete and utter nutjob like Sharron Angle. A sensible Republican candidate could have beaten Reid in 2010.

If we're being technical, it is entirely correct because the Senate cannot pass a bill and get it to the president's desk without the House.  The excerpt says "Senate," not "Congress." 

Overall, though, I understand your point. 

Dos Equis

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2014, 07:16:18 PM »
A Company Liberals Could Love
JULY 5, 2014

FOR a generation now, liberals have bemoaned the disappearance of the socially conscious corporation, the boardroom devoted to the common good. Once, the story goes, America’s C.E.O.s recognized that they shared interests with workers and customers; once wages and working hours reflected more than just a zeal for profits. But then came Reagan, deregulation, hostile takeovers, and an era of solidarity gave way to the age of Gordon Gekko, from which there’s been no subsequent escape.

There are, however, exceptions: companies that still have a sense of business as a moral calling, which can be held up as examples to shame the bottom-liners.

One such company was hailed last year by the left-wing policy website Demos “for thumbing its nose at the conventional wisdom that success in the retail industry” requires paying “bargain-basement wages.” A retail chain with nearly 600 stores and 13,000 workers, this business sets its lowest full-time wage at $15 an hour, and raised wages steadily through the stagnant postrecession years. (Its do-gooder policies also include donating 10 percent of its profits to charity and giving all employees Sunday off.) And the chain is thriving commercially — offering, as Demos put it, a clear example of how “doing good for workers can also mean doing good for business.”

Of course I’m talking about Hobby Lobby, the Christian-owned craft store that’s currently playing the role of liberalism’s public enemy No. 1, for its successful suit against the Obama administration’s mandate requiring coverage for contraceptives, sterilization and potential abortifacients.

But this isn’t just a point about the company’s particular virtues. The entire conflict between religious liberty and cultural liberalism has created an interesting situation in our politics: The political left is expending a remarkable amount of energy trying to fine, vilify and bring to heel organizations — charities, hospitals, schools and mission-infused businesses — whose commitments they might under other circumstances extol.

So the recent Supreme Court ruling offers a chance, after the hysteria cools and the Taliban hypotheticals grow stale, for liberals to pause and consider the long-term implications of this culture-war campaign.

Historically, support for religious liberty in the United States has rested on pragmatic as well as philosophical foundations. From de Tocqueville’s America to Eisenhower’s, there has been a sense — not universal but widespread — that religious pluralism has broad social benefits, and that the wider society has a practical interest, within reason, in allowing religious communities to pursue moral ends as they see fit.

But in the past, tensions over pluralism’s proper scope usually occurred when a specific faith — Catholicism and Mormonism, notably — unsettled or challenged the mostly Protestant majority. Today, the potential tensions are much broader, because the goals of postsexual revolution liberalism are at odds with the official beliefs of almost every traditional religious body, be it Mormon or Muslim, Eastern Orthodox or Orthodox Jewish, Calvinist or Catholic.

Continue reading the main storyContinue reading the main storyContinue reading the main story
If liberals so desire, this division could lead to constant conflict, in which just about every project conservative believers undertake is gradually threatened with regulation enforcing liberal norms. The health coverage offered by religious employers; the activity of religious groups on college campuses; the treatments offered by religious hospitals; the subject matter taught in religious schools ... the battlegrounds are legion.

And liberals seem to be preparing the ground for this kind of expansive conflict — by making sharp distinctions (as the White House’s mandate exemptions did) between the liberties of congregations and the liberties of other religious organizations, by implying that religion’s “free exercise” is confined to liturgy and prayer, and by suggesting (as Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg did in her Hobby Lobby dissent) that religious groups serve only their co-believers, not the common good.

That last idea, bizarre to anyone who’s visited a soup kitchen, could easily be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Insist that for legal purposes there’s no such thing as a religiously motivated business, and you will get fewer religiously motivated business owners — and more chain stores that happily cover Plan B but pay significantly lower wages. Pressure religious hospitals to perform abortions or sex-reassignment surgery (or some eugenic breakthrough, down the road), and you’ll eventually get fewer religious hospitals — and probably less charity care and a more zealous focus on the bottom line. Tell religious charities they have legal rights only insofar as they serve their co-religionists, and you’ll see the scope of their endeavors contract.

But this is not a path liberals need to choose — not least because the more authentically American alternative does not require them to abandon their policy goals. (Obamacare’s expansion of contraceptive coverage, for instance, will be almost as sweeping if some religious nonprofits and businesses opt out.)

Rather, it just requires a rediscovery of pluralism’s virtues, and the benefits of allowing different understandings of social justice to be pursued simultaneously, rather than pitted against each other in a battle to the death.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/ross-douthat-a-company-liberals-could-love-.html?_r=0

avxo

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2014, 07:28:54 PM »
If we're being technical, it is entirely correct because the Senate cannot pass a bill and get it to the president's desk without the House.  The excerpt says "Senate," not "Congress." 

Zing! A technicality call! Excellent!


Dos Equis

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2014, 07:31:35 PM »
Zing! A technicality call! Excellent!



One technical point deserves another.   :)

RRKore

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Re: ObamaCare Supporters Explain Hobby Lobby Case
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2014, 07:45:18 PM »
Im not moving any goal posts.  Vaccinations are given because there is a legitimate health concern, particularly for the young and elderly.  And there are no alternative treatments.  Vaccination is the only option.  The potential for a future health issue is highly likely otherwise.  The same doesnt apply unless a woman has a condition where pregnancy can directly endanger her life or cause death. Exposure to a virus is generally beyond a persons control unless they live in quarantine.  The same cant be said for pregnancy. 

You can help yourself from having your little passive aggressive tantrums. 

Ok, how about sunscreen?  (Maybe sunscreen is not covered by insurance?)

Look, Archer, sorry if I hurt your feelings before but I don't feel like I'm having a passive-aggressive tantrum.  (What is that, exactly?)

I think maybe you're just defensive because somehow you've taken it upon yourself to defend misogyny.  I mean, first you threw in with rapists and now you're against women getting birth control.  Seems like you have some issues with women, mang, lol.

On a serious note, I'm very sorry for whatever your mommy/wife/girlfriend did to you but I have to say that it had nothing to do with me so your vitriol is misplaced. 

I'm not even female, fergawdsake. 

Can we be friends now? ;D