Author Topic: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage  (Read 24428 times)

visualizeperfection

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #150 on: April 08, 2014, 08:53:11 PM »
Solid post by no one

can people just ignore shit-sos annoying Woolycock gimmick until he fucks off and drinks himself unconscious ?

who?


we already forgot who you were talking about.

LiftEaTsLeEpRePeAt

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #151 on: April 08, 2014, 08:56:47 PM »
Solid post by no one

can people just ignore shit-sos annoying Woolycock gimmick until he fucks off and drinks himself unconscious ?
we need a mod to delete retarded responses from ass clowns and then the shit would cease
a

Wolfox

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #152 on: April 08, 2014, 08:58:15 PM »
Let's see if I got the formula. Instinctive training as long as it works for you. Keep lean. Then decades of drugs to look good at the beach.

This is a recipe for lunacy.


A

BodyMachine

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #153 on: April 08, 2014, 09:34:03 PM »
honestly dude I thought you were twisting my words. sorry to jump on you.

that being said again I ask you what role metabolism plays in the uptake of nutrients to the trained muscle?

No worries my man. When active one certainly burns more cals, burn more than you take in for too long and your body has to compensate (glycogen, fat, eventually muscle); nothing new here. As far as actual nutrient uptake itself, I don't know the science to say if metabolism plays a role so I can't comment.

Here is an interesting article I found, chapter 2,3,4,8 are very interesting check it out if you have time http://arno.unimaas.nl/show.cgi?fid=5893

All the best

Coach is Back!

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #154 on: April 08, 2014, 10:28:21 PM »
I don't know if I buy into the whole "metabolism "slows down" as you age" thing. 

Most of the things we think are inevitable changes with age are likely due just as much (if not more so) to activity level. 


Metabolism is a simple transfer of energy from one cell to another.

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #155 on: April 08, 2014, 10:35:55 PM »
You are demonstrating that musclemen are not that bright. All brawn. Anyway, don't give me your 'instinctive' training program 'works for you'. How on earth can anyone deduce anything whatever from what you wrote?

First we have the nonsense that free weights are better than machines and now all programs are okay 'if they work for you'. That is a totally empty method and has zero information of value.

Since you are repeating what you read in the muscle magazines you figure you have state of the art information. I am afraid you are not an expert in hypertrophy. Few people on Getbig are.


I agree with this, no one excluded.

That being said, the only other thing that I DONT agree with is that machines are superior to free weights. Nothing could be further from the truth and I've proven this to you many times over the years. For BODYBUILDING purposes only, machines have there place but minimally at best. 

Van_Bilderass

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #156 on: April 09, 2014, 12:10:38 AM »
I didn't read every post here but...

I think eating pre and post workout, at least protein, is a good idea. Perhaps not absolutely necessary but the research points to it most likely being beneficial. In some elderly people there is zero increase in protein synthesis if there is no protein intake soon after the training session, the effect is lost altogether... but they were elderly, so...

If anyone really wants to know what the research says, i.e. not most of getbig, look at this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/

As far as gaining in a deficit, is it not true that muscle growth requires energy? And if you're
in a caloric deficit and eating enough protein, will not some of that protein be used for energy, gluconeogenesis  etc? Yes I have seen recomps on many guys during contest prep. Especially if they went from being clean to starting a cycle. But the most successful recomps happen when you have periodic refeeds. I remember asking Disgusted if the cheat day on his diet contributes to the muscle gained during his prep diets and he said definitely. I think the muscle gain is realised when the body senses there is excess energy coming in. It's very hard to grow in a constant deficit. I remember Mentzer talking about this, he suspected the body could "steal" calories from bodyfat, that's how one could grow in a deficit, but he wasn't sure and he was no scientist either.


D.O.U.P

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #157 on: April 09, 2014, 04:44:27 PM »
No one-

Typically, what do you eat in a day?

Break it down please.

LiftEaTsLeEpRePeAt

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #158 on: April 09, 2014, 05:19:50 PM »
No one-

Typically, what do you eat in a day?

Break it down please.
I can answer this one for ya... he had a wolffox with a side order of visualcorrection..... he ate them up and then shit them out   lol
a

visualizeperfection

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #159 on: April 09, 2014, 05:20:37 PM »
I can answer this one for ya... he had a wolffox with a side order of visualcorrection..... he ate them up and then shit them out   lol

I think you might be referring to me?


LiftEaTsLeEpRePeAt

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #160 on: April 09, 2014, 05:28:38 PM »
I think you might be referring to me?


me thinks your getting a little smarter
a

visualizeperfection

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #161 on: April 09, 2014, 06:03:13 PM »
me thinks your getting a little smarter

I was born smarter than you.

any-who, read through the thread, and the entirety of getbig.

me and No One have never had an issue.


no one

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #162 on: April 09, 2014, 06:20:13 PM »
I agree with this, no one excluded.

That being said, the only other thing that I DONT agree with is that machines are superior to free weights. Nothing could be further from the truth and I've proven this to you many times over the years. For BODYBUILDING purposes only, machines have there place but minimally at best. 

i see a lot of value in using whatever provides you with the best workout. i have gotten some of the best results for my arms using strictly cable work. accroding to conventionality this should not possible over using free weights.


I didn't read every post here but...

I think eating pre and post workout, at least protein, is a good idea. Perhaps not absolutely necessary but the research points to it most likely being beneficial. In some elderly people there is zero increase in protein synthesis if there is no protein intake soon after the training session, the effect is lost altogether... but they were elderly, so...

If anyone really wants to know what the research says, i.e. not most of getbig, look at this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/

As far as gaining in a deficit, is it not true that muscle growth requires energy? And if you're
 in a caloric deficit and eating enough protein, will not some of that protein be used for energy, gluconeogenesis  etc? Yes I have seen recomps on many guys during contest prep. Especially if they went from being clean to starting a cycle. But the most successful recomps happen when you have periodic refeeds. I remember asking Disgusted if the cheat day on his diet contributes to the muscle gained during his prep diets and he said definitely. I think the muscle gain is realised when the body senses there is excess energy coming in. It's very hard to grow in a constant deficit. I remember Mentzer talking about this, he suspected the body could "steal" calories from bodyfat, that's how one could grow in a deficit, but he wasn't sure and he was no scientist either.



to be honest Van i care little for 'research'. i have found that 'real life' seldom reflects what 'research' would have you believe. i followed the research for years. it got me fat. then i started using common sense.

in my experience, in a calorie deficit the body utilises protein strictly for anabolism, and will use in the absence of carbs and fats, the bodies own fat for fuel.

you touch on something interesting- recomps, so lets examine that. think about the last week prep and the depletions that are undertaken, esp water. what occurs? we force the body to take in more fluid than it can use or need in oder to get it used to passing unwanted water. then we cut water off. the body keeps expelling it thinking there is more to come. as a result you end up nice and dry. its a little more complicated than that, but that will do for this example. now that the body is forced to remain without water when water is re introduced it hoards, because the body loves stasis.

now think of this in terms of protein and a higher cal diet. what happens. the body, knowing more protein is coming simply wastes it as it does the water in the above example. we have trained our bodies to know there is always more protein coming so it excretes it. now throw yourself into a severe deficit. what will the body do with the protein? hoard it. it does it for water, why would it not do it with nutrients it needs, esp protein, and thus utilise it for the purpose the body demands it for- regeneration and repair.

it is my belief and opinion that is why you grow in a deficit- im not talking a constant deficit- im talking going from say 8% to 4 or 5%. i dont think one can truly live in a constant deficit. the body needs fat to survive and, for the organs, including the brain to function properly.

No one-

Typically, what do you eat in a day?

Break it down please.

hey dude like i said when i am dieting i love fats and proteins.

my fat choices are peanut better (simon loves this:D) almonds, cashews.

my protein choices are extra lean ground beef, whole eggs and chicken breast.

my cals when dieting are typically around 1200 on my lower days to upwards of 1500 on days i graze on nuts (insert joke here :D)

one or two meals a day. i just eat when hungry. no set schedule.

when im not dieting i eat everything and anything. fasting and training fasted allows me to stay within a month or so of striking distance of a nice bf level for summer.

I can answer this one for ya... he had a wolffox with a side order of visualcorrection..... he ate them up and then shit them out   lol

VP is my homeboy. he thought i was too terse at first. i think he understands me better now.
b

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #163 on: April 10, 2014, 03:28:38 AM »
@ no one, I really believe and want to believe that you don't need to eat a ton to put on muscle, but how do you explain those guys we see at the gym all the time but look normal like they don't lift? 

Are they just hard gainers?  I don't have a hard time putting on muscle (for a natural) but get fat very easy; just by looking at carbs.  :-X

Maybe it's true that some are "hard gainers" and need to eat that surplus  ???

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #164 on: April 10, 2014, 03:58:22 AM »
Quote
to be honest Van i care little for 'research'. i have found that 'real life' seldom reflects what 'research' would have you believe. i followed the research for years. it got me fat. then i started using common sense.

Why read up on a scientific study of 100 people that concludes that 60 of them 'x' happens and 40 them 'y' happens.

Its purely down to how you yourself react/respond that counts.
What difference does the results of someone else matter?

Van_Bilderass

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #165 on: April 10, 2014, 04:22:36 AM »
Why read up on a scientific study of 100 people that concludes that 60 of them 'x' happens and 40 them 'y' happens.

Its purely down to how you yourself react/respond that counts.
What difference does the results of someone else matter?

That is a meta-study looking at all the available literature. It very clearly ackowledges when and where you can't draw definitive conclusions. In the end it very clearly states, for example:

Quote
Distilling the data into firm, specific recommendations is difficult due to the inconsistency of findings and scarcity of systematic investigations seeking to optimize pre- and/or post-exercise protein dosage and timing. Practical nutrient timing applications for the goal of muscle hypertrophy inevitably must be tempered with field observations and experience in order to bridge gaps in the scientific literature. With that said, high-quality protein dosed at 0.4–0.5 g/kg of LBM at both pre- and post-exercise is a simple, relatively fail-safe general guideline that reflects the current evidence showing a maximal acute anabolic effect of 20–40 g

Read that again!

I think the anti-science crowd is ridiculous, it's because of science we even talk about protein, know that muscle is made of protein and so on.
It's because of science we have synthetic anabolic steroids, growth hormone, insulin, thyroid hormones, antiestrogens and everything else that has resulted in the modern bodybuilder.
If "gurus" didn't read scientific papers after say mid 60s the bodies would still look the same as back then. The anti-science crowd loves to cite research when suits them though, when it confirms their hunches but only then!

No we are not all unique with uniquely working bodies. We all work roughly the same. Otherwise, why would 'no one' even write about his experiences? It only works on him! ::) :D
I also doubt any research made 'no one' fat, more likely it was broscience and dogcrapping that made him fat... there is no research saying anyone needs 500 grams of protein and an enormous amounts of calories for any purpose. The research would have said bodybuilders don't need more protein than anyone else (at least that was main stance of the scientific community for a long time).

Hulkotron

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #166 on: April 10, 2014, 04:28:54 AM »
That is a meta-study looking at all the available literature. It very clearly ackowledges when and where you can't draw definitive conclusions. In the end it very clearly states, for example:

Read that again!

I think the anti-science crowd is ridiculous, it's because of science we even talk about protein, know that muscle is made of protein and so on.
It's because of science we have synthetic anabolic steroids, growth hormone, insulin, thyroid hormones, antiestrogens and everything else that has resulted in the modern bodybuilder.
If "gurus" didn't read scientific papers after say mid 60s the bodies would still look the same as back then. The anti-science crowd loves to cite research when suits them though, when it confirms their hunches but only then!

No we are not all unique with uniquely working bodies. We all work roughly the same. Otherwise, why would 'no one' even write about his experiences? It only works on him! ::) :D
I also doubt any research made 'no one' fat, more likely it was broscience and dogcrapping that made him fat... there is no research saying anyone needs 500 grams of protein and an enormous amounts of calories for any purpose. The research would have said bodybuilders don't need more protein than anyone else (at least that was main stance of the scientific community for a long time).

Great post

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #167 on: April 10, 2014, 04:30:50 AM »
Quote
No we are not all unique with uniquely working bodies. We all work roughly the same.


Which means we all differ.
So what works for me might not work for you, which is what 'no one' has emphasised all along.

Im not anti science, Im anti statistical study.

Van_Bilderass

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #168 on: April 10, 2014, 04:36:59 AM »


Which means we all differ.
So what works for me might not work for you, which is what 'no one' has emphasised all along.

Im not anti science, Im anti statistical study.

So when I said, "eating protein pre and post workout is probably a good idea" it was a worthless comment based on useless statistics? If studies say that training fasted results in a net catabolic state that is hard to reverse even if you eat after the workout, it was based on useless research?
Would you train fasted and then wait a few hours before eating if you wanted to gain muscle? I mean purely based on your personal experiences?

I'm sure it "works" for no one and galeniko but neither are putting on new muscle and both are on hormones.  Neither even has the goal of gaining muscle.

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #169 on: April 10, 2014, 04:59:33 AM »
Quote
So when I said, "eating protein pre and post workout is probably a good idea" it was a worthless comment based on useless statistics? If studies say that training fasted results in a net catabolic state that is hard to reverse even if you eat after the workout, it was based on useless research?
Would you train fasted and then wait a few hours before eating if you wanted to gain muscle? I mean purely based on your personal experiences?

I do all of those things depending on circumstances.
I eat before training , I eat after training, sometimes I dont do either.
I sometimes dont eat for a long time after training depending on how my lifes panning out and if I have something else to do.

None of it really effects me one way or another to a significant degree.
Just because I have a shake after training every day for 6 months doesnt mean Im going to gain any more muscle than if I eat a chicken breast 4 hours later.

In fact I have dropped shakes from my diet over the last three months and look better for it, I bet the supplements scientific studies doesnt come to that conclusion.

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #170 on: April 10, 2014, 05:34:38 AM »
Most people don't have even the most basic of understanding of what "statistics" is and how it is an essential component of scientific inquiry with critical implications in how the world works, even on an individual level.

For that matter most people have an even worse understanding of what "science" is.

Also if you want to criticize scientific work you should actually read the studies in question (not the abstract and not some popular-press summary) and what the authors have to say about the results.  Nearly all of them address the issue of generalizability.

Simple Simon

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #171 on: April 10, 2014, 05:37:40 AM »
Quote
Also if you want to criticize scientific work you should actually read the studies in question (not the abstract and not some popular-press summary) and what the authors have to say about the results.  Nearly all of them address the issue of generalizability.

Does that translate as "Read our study but it may not be applicable to you at all anyway"?

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #172 on: April 10, 2014, 05:49:59 AM »


Which means we all differ.
So what works for me might not work for you, which is what 'no one' has emphasised all along.

Im not anti science, Im anti statistical study.

Simple Simon it is. Discussing serious things with you doesn't work for me! Cling to the 'everyone is different so do what works for you' theory because it explains nothing, simpletons excepted!

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #173 on: April 10, 2014, 06:11:29 AM »
I didn't read every post here but...

I think eating pre and post workout, at least protein, is a good idea. Perhaps not absolutely necessary but the research points to it most likely being beneficial. In some elderly people there is zero increase in protein synthesis if there is no protein intake soon after the training session, the effect is lost altogether... but they were elderly, so...

If anyone really wants to know what the research says, i.e. not most of getbig, look at this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/

As far as gaining in a deficit, is it not true that muscle growth requires energy? And if you're
in a caloric deficit and eating enough protein, will not some of that protein be used for energy, gluconeogenesis  etc? Yes I have seen recomps on many guys during contest prep. Especially if they went from being clean to starting a cycle. But the most successful recomps happen when you have periodic refeeds. I remember asking Disgusted if the cheat day on his diet contributes to the muscle gained during his prep diets and he said definitely. I think the muscle gain is realised when the body senses there is excess energy coming in. It's very hard to grow in a constant deficit. I remember Mentzer talking about this, he suspected the body could "steal" calories from bodyfat, that's how one could grow in a deficit, but he wasn't sure and he was no scientist either.



the refeed, if done at the right time, causes hormonal upregulation (thyroid, leptin, test) and ideally should replenish glycogen that in turn will limit amino acid (BCAA)  utilisation as an energy substrate. 

And yes, a natural guy can certainly grow in an alleged calorie deficit (but what does this mean as calories are not all equal) for a while, assuming he isn't in top shape and has been making lots of mistakes in the past.

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Re: my thoughts on training, nutrition and anabolics usage
« Reply #174 on: April 10, 2014, 06:19:31 AM »
Does that translate as "Read our study but it may not be applicable to you at all anyway"?

Did a scientist fuck your boyfriend or something?

It translates as "read something and understand it before you criticize it and the people who did it."  You seem capable of reading at perhaps an 8th-grade level, understanding may take a little effort though.

Or just continue to think you're a special snowflake who is smarter/better than everyone else and ignore a huge volume of tremendously valuable information on human health and physiology that science has produced over the last few centuries.