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HowDog
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« on: January 21, 2006, 05:49:56 PM »

I mean how can they give advice to build muscle when they only did it on the juice anyway.
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2006, 08:47:03 PM »

I mean how can they give advice to build muscle when they only did it on the juice anyway.
That's right, it was the juice and the juice alone Roll Eyes

If that was the case there would be a shit load of people walking around that look like pro BB

...and so ends my visit to the "Natural" board... my only question is, when will the natties stop hating on the gear users. You don't see AAS users hating on the natties.
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2006, 10:53:58 PM »

That's right, it was the juice and the juice alone Roll Eyes

If that was the case there would be a shit load of people walking around that look like pro BB

...and so ends my visit to the "Natural" board... my only question is, when will the natties stop hating on the gear users. You don't see AAS users hating on the natties.

Really?  Could have fooled me.
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2006, 11:03:55 PM »

I mean how can they give advice to build muscle when they only did it on the juice anyway.

They can give advice if they keep in mind the differences between training natural and training with gear. Mike Mentzer had the right idea.
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2006, 08:29:54 AM »

...and so ends my visit to the "Natural" board... my only question is, when will the natties stop hating on the gear users. You don't see AAS users hating on the natties.

Don't leave bro. Looks like this board needs a lot of help.
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2006, 10:30:11 AM »

What did Mike Mentzer preach in regard to Natural BB.  And on the remark about hating, what is that the main word around here.  God forbid if you question anything on these boards and by the way ass it is not hating.  I would just want genuine advice from a true Natural or as you put it "Nattie" so if you are  a gear head stay the fuck out!!!! Because in 20 ys you will be a disfunc bitch and I will still be big and will not need heart surgry, transplant etccc  hahahahahahhahahaha  Beeotch
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2006, 11:09:02 AM »

What is the point of a natural board? We do the same exercises, eat the same food, gravity pulls just as hard at our dumbells as the guys on gear. Obviously it takes a lot longer to build but do we need another board for it?
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2006, 12:53:43 PM »

What did Mike Mentzer preach in regard to Natural BB.  And on the remark about hating, what is that the main word around here.  God forbid if you question anything on these boards and by the way ass it is not hating.  I would just want genuine advice from a true Natural or as you put it "Nattie" so if you are  a gear head stay the f**k out!!!! Because in 20 ys you will be a disfunc bitch and I will still be big and will not need heart surgry, transplant etccc  hahahahahahhahahaha  Beeotch

Meltdown.
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Oliver Klaushof
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2006, 03:53:30 PM »

What is the point of a natural board? We do the same exercises, eat the same food, gravity pulls just as hard at our dumbells as the guys on gear. Obviously it takes a lot longer to build but do we need another board for it?

Training without gear is completely different. You should know this.
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2006, 03:54:09 PM »

Personally,

I read all these different boards to learn.

Sometimes what to do, sometimes what not to do, but I do not presume to know all there is to know about anything.

I have learned alot about gear use, how recovery differs, traning, etc. from very knowledgeable people on that board like Division, Mem, Muscle19 and others. I respect their opinions for what they are, real life experience with the topics of that board.

I hope that this board will have alot of knowledge on it about natural training the same way.

I have never used gear, and have no plans on it yet, but I do not condone those who do. The reason I read these boards as opposed to getting the information out of magazines and such, is you get to read about other's real life experiences. If this board turns out to be a hate thing on gear users, then it would be a disappointment, at least to me.

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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2006, 04:24:50 PM »

i dont think training without gear is that different.
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2006, 04:34:00 PM »

i dont think training without gear is that different.

You can work out half-assed and eat poor and still make gains on gear. That's the truth.

You can't follow a marathon workout like Jay Cutler's routine and expect to get big. Not gonna happen.
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2006, 05:27:35 PM »

Define marathon workout. Your not one of those HIT suckers are you?
http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=74

IMO and in my personal experience of training alongside juicers natural training differs in two ways. 1) the rate at which you recover 2) your strength per bodyweight
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2006, 05:41:29 PM »

Marathon IMO is a workout that includes 3-4+ sets per exercise and more than 3 exercises per bodypart. I'm talking about hardgainers though. Hardgainers should limit themselves to this.

Meso or endo bodytypes should do the opposite of this, but I'm sure most people are hardgainers and that's what got them started.
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2006, 06:50:22 PM »

Point is that there is adequate research, classical research (i.e. not the one conducted by Muscle-Tech in their "labs") conducted in the realm of motor learning and physiology which explicitly states that NM failure is to be avoided in the long run and muscle fatigue is to be avoided for any hope of having high frequency and high intensity (as a % of 1RM) workouts.

Now the HIT jedis will argue that only one or two intense (defined unscientifically as percentage of maximum effort, instantaneous effort etc) workouts a week are more than what the "hardgainer" can withstand. And that is true because they are prescribing a workout methodology which essentially "fries" the neuromuscular system to the point that subsequent frequent workouts become more difficult to perform. The integral of the force velocity curve is always low in the HIT workout. HIT style workouts make impressive videos, a la "blood and guts" it is more of a show of strength than true strength. If you are training your fast twitch fibers train them in the manner them in a manner consistent with the muscle physiology. Muscle failure is good if you want to do lactate interval training and are interested in pushing your speed endurance higher, for instance in a break from the pack in a road race in the Tour de France and not if you care to up your one rep max.

Good luck.
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2006, 06:57:18 PM »

Point is that there is adequate research, classical research (i.e. not the one conducted by Muscle-Tech in their "labs") conducted in the realm of motor learning and physiology which explicitly states that NM failure is to be avoided in the long run and muscle fatigue is to be avoided for any hope of having high frequency and high intensity (as a % of 1RM) workouts.

Now the HIT jedis will argue that only one or two intense (defined unscientifically as percentage of maximum effort, instantaneous effort etc) workouts a week are more than what the "hardgainer" can withstand. And that is true because they are prescribing a workout methodology which essentially "fries" the neuromuscular system to the point that subsequent frequent workouts become more difficult to perform. The integral of the force velocity curve is always low in the HIT workout. HIT style workouts make impressive videos, a la "blood and guts" it is more of a show of strength than true strength. If you are training your fast twitch fibers train them in the manner them in a manner consistent with the muscle physiology. Muscle failure is good if you want to do lactate interval training and are interested in pushing your speed endurance higher, for instance in a break from the pack in a road race in the Tour de France and not if you care to up your one rep max.

Good luck.

I'm not a HIT jedi - I just use what works for me. I gained 20 pounds in a little over a year following this routine. On my second set I simply lift until I feel a good pump. I also try to take a week or 2 off every month or so if I feel like the nervous system has taken a beating. Like I said, this works for me.

I try to follow this guideline when working out -
I do 2 sets of each exercise and do about 3 or 4 exercises per bodypart.
I don't workout more than 3 days a week.
I only do heavy exercises like squats and deadlifts every other week, but not both the same week.
Once every month or so I take a week off.

On the second set of the exercise I go until failure using my other hand to assist the lift.

WEEK I                                                                         WEEK II
SUNDAY-Biceps,Forearms                SUNDAY-Biceps, Forearms
Cheat Curls - 1 set                                          (SAME AS WEEK ONE)
Concentration Curls - 2 sets
Outer Bicep Curls - 2 sets
Hammer Curls - 1 set
Brachioradialis(reverse curl)- 2 sets
Extensors - 2 sets
Flexors - 2 sets
Grippers - failure

TUESDAY-Chest,Triceps                   TUESDAY-Deltoids, Triceps                 
Free Weight Press - 2 sets                        Overhead Press - 2 sets
Dumbell Flys - 2 sets                                  Front Deltoid Raises - 1 set to failure
Tricep Extensions grip1 - 1 set                   Side Deltoid raises - 2 sets
Tricep Ext. Grip2 - 1 set                              Tricep Extensions grip1 - 1 set   
Triceps Ext. Grip3 - 1 set                             Tricep Ext. Grip2 - 1 set                                                                                                                      Tricep Ext. Grip3 - 1 set

FRIDAY-Back                                     FRIDAY-Legs
Deadlift - 2 sets                                          Front Squats - 2 sets
Shrugs - 2 sets                                           Calf Raises - 2 sets
Fireman's carry - Failure
Bent Row - 2 sets
Single Arm Row - 1 set
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2006, 08:32:03 PM »

The integral of the force velocity curve is always low in the HIT workout.

lol. And thats supposed to imply what exactly? Nothing since force isnt dependent on velocity.  That gets my vote for the most redundant statement of the week.

I guess by your definition I do marathon workouts. When I started off I followed all that if you train for more then an hour your over training nonsense. Once I started training with people who had been in the game for a while and switched to these so called marathon workouts I got much better results not only in size but in strength as well. I usually do between 12 and 16 sets per bodypart and 2 bodyparts per workout. I train 6 days a week.
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2006, 08:56:16 PM »

Judging from some of the remarks in this thread, you guys are going to freak out at the way I work out.


The Luke
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2006, 09:04:50 PM »

Judging from some of the remarks in this thread, you guys are going to freak out at the way I work out.


The Luke
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2006, 11:25:43 PM »

Judging from some of the remarks in this thread, you guys are going to freak out at the way I work out.


The Luke

As I mentioned before I only followed that one hour max when I was first starting out like 5 years ago. I usually spend upwards of two hours a day in the gym now. Frankly I am supprised at how many people seam to thing HIT/dogcrap is the way to go.
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2006, 08:26:56 AM »

I mean how can they give advice to build muscle when they only did it on the juice anyway.

Maybe they didn't start out that way and they know how to get results naturally?

I wouldn't ever limit resources.   A lot of the principles pros use apply to natural bodybuilding also.
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2006, 08:29:53 AM »

That's right, it was the juice and the juice alone Roll Eyes

If that was the case there would be a shit load of people walking around that look like pro BB

...and so ends my visit to the "Natural" board... my only question is, when will the natties stop hating on the gear users. You don't see AAS users hating on the natties.

I would have to agree with Arnold Jr. on this.  It does take more than gear to build a physique.  And why hate......on either end.  Using gear is a choice for everyone to make.  I doesn't make a person any less no matter what they chose.
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2006, 10:03:23 AM »

I mean how can they give advice to build muscle when they only did it on the juice anyway.

THIS is single-handedly the most uneducated, unintelligent, short-sighted, bullshit remark I've ever heard on this whole board!!!  Dude your comment reeks of nothing but jealosy!  Come on bro, i know tons of juicers and they look no where near pro bb standards...in fact some look like total shit from eatin shitty and drinkin like a fish!!!  If it were all about the juice, Id be in the pros instead of my regular job....

PEOPLE dont realize that most of the pros were freakin huge before they even touched a syringe.  Ronnie Coleman was a solid 245-260 naturally before he began competing....Some of you bastards really need to brush up on some research before you post stupidass shit like this!

If you choose not to juice, I'm all fine with that...i stayed natural a long damn time!  I have a lotta respect for natural bbs but damn dont go hatin on others just because they view things a little differently....If one chooses to juice its his business and no one elses....Ive gotta lotta people at my gym who hate on me for liking anabolics....yet they go out and smoke weed, snort coke, and drink like hell and yet they are on my ass for moderate steroid use...JUST BECAUSE u aint got the BALLS to try something dont go bashing those who do!!!  the best attitude you can have is "to each his own" and thats the way i look at it.
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2006, 01:04:24 PM »

BAck off Iron Mike you don't know squat about me and yes I have done cycles and I can tell you there is a different training method between natural and juiced.  I am not hating, is that the only word you know, I am simply trying to state a fact taht some pros might be a little disillusioned on juice when handing out advice to pure natties, got it.  peace
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2006, 01:06:03 PM »

lol. And thats supposed to imply what exactly? Nothing since force isnt dependent on velocity.  That gets my vote for the most redundant statement of the week.

I guess by your definition I do marathon workouts. When I started off I followed all that if you train for more then an hour your over training nonsense. Once I started training with people who had been in the game for a while and switched to these so called marathon workouts I got much better results not only in size but in strength as well. I usually do between 12 and 16 sets per bodypart and 2 bodyparts per workout. I train 6 days a week.

Dear Cauthon,

The integral of a force-velocity curve is the power. How is the force dependent of the velocity? If I press 100 lbs (assuming 200 lbs is my 1RM) then I can press it fast or I can press it slow until lock out. Work done is the same. Rate of work aka power is higher when the movement is faster.

In both cases if I do not accelerate the barbell on its upward movement then the force (let us assume it is uniform) times velocity (again assuming the velocity is uniform) is the power. So this means I put in 100 lbs of force to lift it (remember no acceleration) and then multiply it by the velocity say 1 ft/s. Power is 100 lb-ft/s. Now if I double the velocity even you will realise that my power output has doubled to 200 lb-ft/s.

Now I heard you complain that force and velocity is not constant along a trajectory in a complicated shoulder press. Correct! Thats why I said integral of the force velocity curve. Using force plate measurement techniques and high speed camera one can determine power output. The force plate and camera data will give you a force and a corresponding velocity at the time instant.

And did I hear you say that Fred Hatfield (aka Dr. Squat) likes us lifters to use "compensatory acceleration". That is try to accelerate the weight along it trajectory. Fine so I will accelerate the barbell. Now I push with 150 lbs of force. Lo and behold the barbell moves faster and in fact accelerates towards lock out. I will leave it as an exercise for the readers to figure out the acceleration. However since acceleration is non-zero you will realise that the velocity is changing (increasing and then decreasing towards the end as I have to stop at lockout. Again the integral of the force velocity curve will give me the power output.

HIT produces lower average power than more workouts designed to improve strength.

And yes I know we have to accelerate the barbell from rest even in the zero acceleration case. Because the bar starts from rest and then achieves a uniform velocity of 1ft/s. However once I reach a velocity of 1ft/s I turn off enough muscle fibers to produce only 100 lbs for vertical force so as to let the bar move up without acceleration. The initial drive happens quickly and the time period is small therefore is ignored in analytical mechanics. But if you give me the initial impulse that my muscles impart (which kineseologists call starting strength) and time length for that impulse then I can determine the initial acceleration required to get the bar moving even for the zero acceleration case. Again real life is not as nice as Professor Snatch_Clean's high school physics crash course. Thats why you learn about integrals and derivatives to handle non constant functions

PS: You migh want to read my earlier post again. I do not think HIT is the way for anyone to train for any length of time. Next time when you feel like blasting out an extra post think and pause and reflect. It will save you a lot of wasted effort.
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