Author Topic: Glycogen discussion  (Read 1565 times)

calfzilla

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Glycogen discussion
« on: May 01, 2014, 08:40:38 PM »
Couple questions/discussion topics about glycogen.

  1.  When the average 200lb bodybuilder goes keto and is depleted of glycogen, about how many pounds less is he?  10-20 maybe?  I believe the body holds 3 grams of water per every gram of glycogen.

  2.  What is the purpose of glycogen?  As I understand it is the energy out bodies primarily run on except when keto then it's fat.

  3.  Are there any health benefits of having glycogen in the muscle?  I know the muscle looks flat without it but what about health? 

  Feel free to add any other glycogen questions, observations, or info.

TheShape.

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2014, 08:46:58 PM »
Glycogen is what your muscles hold as energy, when you're depleted you look flat and shitty. The trick is to deplete them close to game day and then fill them out for the show.

Thin Lizzy

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2014, 08:47:41 PM »
From a survival standpoint, Glycogen is your energy source for Anaerobic Emergencies, mainly running fast and lifting heavy weights. Fat is your default energy source for basic metabolic needs. You don't have to be in Ketosis to use fat as energy.

calfzilla

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2014, 08:50:12 PM »
From a survival standpoint, Glycogen is your energy source for Anaerobic Emergencies, mainly running fast and lifting heavy weights. Fat is your default energy source for basic metabolic needs. You don't have to be in Ketosis to use fat as energy.

So that must be why they say low intensity cardio is the "fat burning zone".

Marty Champions

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2014, 08:54:23 PM »
geez man all these years of diet and training and reading getbig we are back to square one. At least youre dedicated to finding the truth
A

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2014, 09:14:25 PM »
Glycogen is what your muscles hold as energy, when you're depleted you look flat and shitty. The trick is to deplete them close to game day and then fill them out for the show.

IME many look their best when they are at their most depleted. Say on a wednesday/thursday just before loading. Sometimes loading makes them look a little bit better yet, but the main thing of course is to be in shape (as lean as possible) in the first place. "Loading" is given too much credit or blame in stage shape IMO.

BigRo

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2014, 10:40:58 PM »
From a survival standpoint, Glycogen is your energy source for Anaerobic Emergencies, mainly running fast and lifting heavy weights. Fat is your default energy source for basic metabolic needs. You don't have to be in Ketosis to use fat as energy.

Yes well said.

kreator

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2014, 12:46:29 AM »
glycogen can be used as energy without the presence of oxygen, fat needs oxygen to burn. ur body first turns to ATP and CP(that's why creatine works, it restores ATP levels for energy), for quick sources of energy available (first 10 seconds of activity), only then it switches to glycogen stores and then to fat. Roughly said.

OTHstrong

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 01:06:01 AM »
IME many look their best when they are at their most depleted. Say on a wednesday/thursday just before loading. Sometimes loading makes them look a little bit better yet, but the main thing of course is to be in shape (as lean as possible) in the first place. "Loading" is given too much credit or blame in stage shape IMO.
this^^

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 03:07:54 AM »
I am using a creatine/glycogen loader currently(waxy starch maize) The products also has some glutamine peptides(predigested glutamine so it actually gets into your body unlike regular L-Glutamine) This product also has some citruline malate and the other basic vasodilators then to top it off they through in some fenugreek and some other cheap herbs to raise natural Test levels. I will say it is a pretty good product. It is suppose to be use after a heavy workout day but I drinok it close to the end of my work-out and I get some crazy pumps off the stuff. I think it has a tad too much sugar but other then that good product.

I know waxy starch Maize has been around forever but this blend with the creatine esters and the glutamine peptides really does do something. not a worthless supplements at all and it tastes good.

kreator

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2014, 03:15:47 AM »
i love it when they put carbs in preworkout powders and then some arginine etc, and claim that arginine will give u the pump, what a crock of shit, you'd have to take a shitload of arginine to achieve this and you'd probably shit your pants due to diarhea before making it to the gym ... most of the time it's the carbs that give the feeling of the pump ;)

wes

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2014, 04:46:58 AM »
IME many look their best when they are at their most depleted. Say on a wednesday/thursday just before loading. Sometimes loading makes them look a little bit better yet, but the main thing of course is to be in shape (as lean as possible) in the first place. "Loading" is given too much credit or blame in stage shape IMO.
Totally agree....been saying this for years to no avail.  :(

wes

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2014, 04:49:21 AM »
Glycogen is a multibranched polysaccharide of glucose that serves as a form of energy storage in animals[2] and fungi. The polysaccharide structure represents the main storage form of glucose in the body.

In humans, glycogen is made and stored primarily in the cells of the liver and the muscles, and functions as the secondary long-term energy storage (with the primary energy stores being fats held in adipose tissue). Muscle glycogen is converted into glucose by muscle cells, and liver glycogen converts to glucose for use throughout the body including the central nervous system.

Glycogen is the analogue of starch, a glucose polymer in plants, having a similar structure to amylopectin (a component of starch), but more extensively branched and compact than starch. Glycogen is found in the form of granules in the cytosol/cytoplasm in many cell types, and plays an important role in the glucose cycle. Glycogen forms an energy reserve that can be quickly mobilized to meet a sudden need for glucose, but one that is less compact than the energy reserves of triglycerides (lipids).

In the liver cells (hepatocytes), glycogen can compose up to 8% of the fresh weight (100–120 g in an adult) soon after a meal.[3] Only the glycogen stored in the liver can be made accessible to other organs. In the muscles, glycogen is found in a low concentration (1-2% of the muscle mass). The amount of glycogen stored in the body—especially within the muscles, liver, and red blood cells[4][5][6]—mostly depends on physical training, basal metabolic rate, and eating habits such as intermittent fasting. Small amounts of glycogen are found in the kidneys, and even smaller amounts in certain glial cells in the brain and white blood cells. The uterus also stores glycogen during pregnancy to nourish the embryo.


Liver

As a meal containing carbohydrates is eaten and digested, blood glucose levels rise, and the pancreas secretes insulin. Blood glucose from the portal vein enters liver cells (hepatocytes). Insulin acts on the hepatocytes to stimulate the action of several enzymes, including glycogen synthase. Glucose molecules are added to the chains of glycogen as long as both insulin and glucose remain plentiful. In this postprandial or "fed" state, the liver takes in more glucose from the blood than it releases.

After a meal has been digested and glucose levels begin to fall, insulin secretion is reduced, and glycogen synthesis stops. When it is needed for energy, glycogen is broken down and converted again to glucose. Glycogen phosphorylase is the primary enzyme of glycogen breakdown. For the next 8–12 hours, glucose derived from liver glycogen is the primary source of blood glucose used by the rest of the body for fuel.

Glucagon, another hormone produced by the pancreas, in many respects serves as a countersignal to insulin. In response to insulin levels being above normal (when blood levels of glucose begin to fall below the normal range), glucagon is secreted in increasing amounts and stimulates both glycogenolysis (the breakdown of glycogen) and gluconeogenesis (the generation of glucose from noncarbohydrates such as fatty acids).
Muscle

Muscle cell glycogen appears to function as an immediate reserve source of available glucose for muscle cells. Other cells that contain small amounts use it locally, as well. As muscle cells lack glucose-6-phosphatase, which is required to pass glucose into the blood, the glycogen they store is available solely for internal use and is not shared with other cells. (This is in contrast to liver cells, which, on demand, readily do break down their stored glycogen into glucose and send it through the blood stream as fuel for the brain or muscles). Glycogen is also a suitable storage substance due to its insolubility in water, which means it does not affect the osmotic pressure of a cell.

BigRo

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 05:00:44 AM »
Totally agree....been saying this for years to no avail.  :(

not for me, I come in fuller, harder,drier and more separated after few days eating up.

Melkor

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 05:31:22 AM »
It is worth noting too that glycogen depletion is a selective process. That is that the body preferentially depletes certain muscle groups and different muscle fibre types. So depending on the training stimulus the body could for example preferentially deplete glycogen from slow twitch or fast twitch muscle fibres. It would take a prolonged period of starvation and both an ultra endurance and high intensity training stimulus to truly exhaust all glycogen stores.
 

OTHstrong

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2014, 07:14:09 AM »
It is worth noting too that glycogen depletion is a selective process. That is that the body preferentially depletes certain muscle groups and different muscle fibre types. So depending on the training stimulus the body could for example preferentially deplete glycogen from slow twitch or fast twitch muscle fibres. It would take a prolonged period of starvation and both an ultra endurance and high intensity training stimulus to truly exhaust all glycogen stores.
 
not really, what you are describing is scrapings at the bottom of a jar.

buresu

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2014, 07:24:02 AM »
not for me, I come in fuller, harder,drier and more separated after few days eating up.

not for me either..I look like shit depleted

OTHstrong

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2014, 07:59:58 AM »
not for me either..I look like shit depleted
most do but most look like shit after they load. Also loading up and feeling bigger can be misleading. One can think they look great but really they do not look as good, they just think they do because they are bigger and everything has grown. From me being on stage a million times during the award ceremonies, I can honestly say that more then 50% of class winners are not full, they hold back.

wes

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2014, 08:45:18 AM »
not for me, I come in fuller, harder,drier and more separated after few days eating up.
I hear you Ro....I know a guy who ate 36 frozen waffles as a carb and he looked great.

Me personally,the less carbs,the harder I look.

I may do some fast digesting sugary carbs just before hitting the stage but never too much..........and,of course,it depends on how I`m looking.

whitewidow

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2014, 08:13:15 AM »
I hear you Ro....I know a guy who ate 36 frozen waffles as a carb and he looked great.

Me personally,the less carbs,the harder I look.

I may do some fast digesting sugary carbs just before hitting the stage but never too much..........and,of course,it depends on how I`m looking.

Holy shit that is 3 whole boxes of waffles. Does he eat them plain or with butter and syrup?Damn thats a shitload of waffles.

Hulkotron

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Re: Glycogen discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2014, 08:15:11 AM »
glycogen can be used as energy without the presence of oxygen, fat needs oxygen to burn. ur body first turns to ATP and CP(that's why creatine works, it restores ATP levels for energy), for quick sources of energy available (first 10 seconds of activity), only then it switches to glycogen stores and then to fat. Roughly said.

Correct