Steve Reeves - Measurements - How Strong Was He?

[NarcissisticDeity]

I love how every time Steve is mention there is an argument over his "natural" status.

Nobody knows but Steve. 

Well there are things we know and things we don't. We know there is no verifiable track record of athletes in the United States taking PEDs before Dr John Ziegler in the mid 1950s , years before Reeves retired. 

[Overload]

Well there are things we know and things we don't. We know there is no verifiable track record of athletes in the United States taking PEDs before Dr John Ziegler in the mid 1950s , years before Reeves retired. 

Exactly, i'm more on the side of things we "don't" know, but i'm not really into debating his use of PED's.  The guy had incredible genetics and it doesn't matter to me if he used or not, i just know history and science always have unknowns, so i'm open to the fact that he could have used.

Either way it doesn't matter.  Great man with a good build.

[Rambone]

All forms of testosterone. Not one anabolic steroid. Like I said on a previous post the Soviets in the late 50's started gaining ground on the American in Olympic lifting. It was a sudden change. They were the ones injecting large doses of testosterone and the result was an enlarged prostate. Dianabol was made to counteract that problem by making a testosterone pill that was more anabolic and less androgenic.

Reeves was in shape from lifting weights when he was a 15. There are pictures. During world war II he stationed over seas he repped out with 110lbs barbell set he had on his base. He was in fantastic shape every decade of his life until his health failed. So juice heads here trying to justify there own use think he was juicing at 15, during his time in the service and every decade until he became ill in his senior years?

It's complete rationalization. It's the old I look like crap with steroids so everyone else does too. No, there are guys that have a great physique without steroids.

Bingo.

[Skylge]

Found this pic, looks like 140 on the inclines.  Which is pretty good.

6 ft 1 and looking fantastic. That's how it should be

[BB]

No it doesn't. It doesn't prove anything. The creator of one of the first anabolics in history had NO success directly injecting testosterone into weight training athletes yet you somehow draw the conclusion that others were using and using successfully eons before? defies logic. I want something tangible not vague references I want a proven record of strength athletes using before Ziegler besides the Russians. It can't be done because if it could we wouldn't be having this conversation.  

Follow this logic -

Schmoes love to pull their dicks to the thought that Zeigler and Dianabol were the first widely available steroid, not true - There were 18+ available for the asking. Furthermore, Dr. Charles Kochakian was promoting them for treatment of burns and war wounds through muscle building by the 1940's, anyone who might of come in contact with the war wounded could have had knowledge of this. In fact, Peary Rader of Ironman fame mentions being told of them by an orderly on a military hospital wing right after WWII.

On the flip side of that, you have Paul de Kruif  in his book, The Male Hormone (1945) promoting them a strength and health restorative in the major media outlets of the day, which surely would have reviews read by the average man. Finally you have methyltestosterone freely sold in a major mens magazine of the day in the late 1940's.

While it is fair to say that Zeigler and the Dianabol trails of the 1950's were the first systematic steroid usage admitted too, you can't absolutely say that bodybuilders may not of tried them before that date, to do so is to be intellectually dishonest.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Follow this logic -

Schmoes love to pull their dicks to the thought that Zeigler and Dianabol were the first widely available steroid, not true - Their were 18+ available for the asking. Furthermore, Dr. Charles Kochakian was promoting them for treatment of burns and war wounds through muscle building by the 1940's, anyone who might of come in contact with the war wounded could have had knowledge of this. In fact, Peary Rader of Ironman fame mentions being told of them by an orderly on a military hospital wing right after WWII.

On the flip side of that, you have Paul de Kruif  in his book, The Male Hormone (1945) promoting them a strength and health restorative in the major media outlets of the day, which surely would have reviews read by the average man. Finally you have methyltestosterone freely sold in a major mens magazine of the day in the late 1940's.

While it is fair to say that Zeigler and the Dianabol trails of the 1950's were the first systematic steroid usage admitted too, you can't absolutely say that bodybuilders may not of tried them before that date, to do so is to be intellectually dishonest.

Again more vague references that equates to NOTHING. 

While it is fair to say that Zeigler and the Dianabol trails of the 1950's were the first systematic steroid usage admitted too, you can't absolutely say that bodybuilders may not of tried them before that date, to do so is to be intellectually dishonest.

That's speculation and nothing more. Is a possibility? a far fetched one sure. Now how about probability? highly unlikely you could purchase something out of a men's magazine and have it be effective to a degree that a medical doctor/pharmacist/inventor was unable to accomplish with all the resources of Ciba labs.

The references in the men's magazines are snake-oil ads nothing more.

[Rambone]

Synthol was invented in 1996. Ronnie won the olympia 2 years afterwards. Therefore, Ronnie was using synthol. Right?

[NarcissisticDeity]

Follow this logic -

Schmoes love to pull their dicks to the thought that Zeigler and Dianabol were the first widely available steroid, not true - Their were 18+ available for the asking. Furthermore, Dr. Charles Kochakian was promoting them for treatment of burns and war wounds through muscle building by the 1940's, anyone who might of come in contact with the war wounded could have had knowledge of this. In fact, Peary Rader of Ironman fame mentions being told of them by an orderly on a military hospital wing right after WWII.

On the flip side of that, you have Paul de Kruif  in his book, The Male Hormone (1945) promoting them a strength and health restorative in the major media outlets of the day, which surely would have reviews read by the average man. Finally you have methyltestosterone freely sold in a major mens magazine of the day in the late 1940's.

While it is fair to say that Zeigler and the Dianabol trails of the 1950's were the first systematic steroid usage admitted too, you can't absolutely say that bodybuilders may not of tried them before that date, to do so is to be intellectually dishonest.

Friday, August 21, 2009
The History of Steroids in Bodybuilding
Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'. When I see ignorance being masqueraded as fact I almost always feel compelled to join the discussion and refute some of the often outrageous statements being hurled about. I'm going to recap what's known about the history of anabolic steroid use in sports so I can refer people to this entry rather than go through it time and time again.

All reliable sources - publications by Terry Todd, John Fair, Randy Roach, Bill Starr, etc, as well as interviews and letters from John Ziegler, John Grimek, Bill March, etc - indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955. These 'trials' were short-lived, however, as the results were disappointing and testosterone use was deemed ineffective and carried the risk of harmful side-effects. A statistical analysis of Olympic-style Weightlifting performances published in the International Journal of the History of Sport concluded that Soviet athletes likely first used testosterone sometime between 1952 and 1956.

Dr. John Ziegler, physician for the U.S. Olympic Weightlifting team (i.e. the York team), described in interviews of learning about the Soviet use of testosterone injections at the 1954 World Weightlifting Championships in Vienna, Austria in October of that year. Some time after returning home, Ziegler convinced York affiliated lifters John Grimek, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara to be test subjects and receive testosterone injections. By Grimek's account, the results were disappointing. In a private letter, dated at the time, Grimek spoke of seeing nothing in the way of gains and quiting the injections because he felt he was actually regressing. Jim Park received only one injection which he claimed did nothing for him physically, but made him incredibly horny. It is unclear as to Kuzahara's experience but, in any case, it was not positive enough to warrant continued use and further experimentation was ceased. In light of the terrible side effects that Ziegler had heard of and witnessed Soviet users suffering, and lack of significant results in his own test subjects, no further experimentation with testosterone was tried by the York (U.S.) Weightlifting team for the duration of the 1950s.

This was not the end of Ziegler's involvement with steroids, however. Ziegler began work with CIBA Pharmaceuticals in 1955 to develop a testosterone derivative that would carry the anabolic properties of testosterone without the undesirable side effects. Preliminary results began coming in by 1956, and Dianabol was released to the U.S. prescription drug market in 1958 for use in wasting conditions. CIBA's competitor, Searle, beat them to the market, however, and introduced Nilevar, the first synthetic anabolic/androgenic steroid, to the prescription drug market in 1956 (used as a polio treatment).

In late 1959 (some claim as early as 1958, some as late as 1960) Ziegler decided to try the new Dianabol on some of the non-medal contending York lifters and enlisted Grimek to convince a few lifters to begin taking it under his (Ziegler's) supervision. Lower level or non-competitive lifters were chosen for the initial trials so as not to risk marring the performance of medal contenders at the upcoming 1960 Olympics (Dianabol was, at that time, a relatively untested drug and York chief Bob Hoffman was said to have feared trying it on his top lifters). Bill March, Tony Garcy, John Grimek, Ziegler himself and later Lou Riecke were the first Guinea Pigs, and the results were much more promising this time around.

From there, Dianabol use quickly spread to the entire York Weightlifting team. Now, up-and-coming York lifters and Strength and Health magazine writers such as Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs started letting the secret out to the bodybuilding community, and by the early-to-mid 1960s almost all high-level competitive bodybuilders were taking steroids in the weeks leading up to contests. This pre-contest cycling scheme by bodybuilders was based on the Weightlifters' practice of escalating steroid use in the weeks leading up to lifting meets - the logic being that just as the lifters wanted to be at their best (strongest) come meet day, bodybuilders wanted to peak at their biggest on the day of the contest. It didn't take long for steroid use to spill into the 'off-season' as well, as this allowed bodybuilders to build more ultimate muscle mass.

The man who would go on to become the first Mr. Olympia, Larry Scott, gained 8 pounds of muscle in two months between the 1960 Mr. Los Angeles (in which he placed third), and the 1960 Mr. California (which he won, defeating the two men who had placed above him in the Mr. Los Angeles two months earlier). A year earlier he had won the Mr. Idaho weighing just 152 pounds. Larry credits Rheo Blair, and his protein powder, as being instrumental in his sudden improvement. However, considering Larry's dramatic gains from that point onward, and Blair's reported possession of Nilevar a few years earlier before he even moved to California, it is quite likely that this time in 1960 also marks Larry's first usage of steroids (something to which he admits but, to my knowledge, hasn't specified the date).

But the early 1960s did't mark the true origins of bodybuilder's regular use of steroids, however. In an early edition of his book Getting Stronger, Bill Pearl told of meeting Arthur Jones (founder of the Nautilus line of training equipment and father of the "HIT" style of training) in 1958 and learning of Nilevar from him. After a little further investigation, Pearl began a twelve-week cycle of the steroid and gained 25 pounds. At around that same time, Irvin Johnson (aka Rheo H. Blair - 'father' of the first protein powders) is said to have had Searle's Nilevar in his possession, though he isn't believed to have been widely distributing it to bodybuilders at that time.

So what can we gather from all of this? First of all, no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958. From there it seems that knowledge of Nilevar and Dianabol to build muscle and strength was kept relatively in the closet until the early 1960s. After all, Hoffman did not want outside athletes to know his lifters' secrets and he was using their sudden gains via Dianabol to promote his supplement line and isometric training courses and racks. Bill Starr wrote that until he was a national calibre lifter with York in the early 1960s he had never heard of steroids. Reg Park (Mr. Universe 1951, 1958, 1965) said that the first he heard of them were in connection with rumours about East German and Soviet athletes during the 1960 Olympics, though he later heard of "steroids" being used on British POWs from Singapore in WWII as they were being nursed back to health in Australian hospitals. Chet Yorton (Mr. America 1966, Mr. Universe 1966, 1975) has said that he first heard of steroids (Nilevar) in 1964, and decided not to risk using them - Yorton went on to become one of the sports most outspoken campaigners against steroid use and founder of the first drug-tested, natural bodybuilding federation. The condition of national and world level bodybuilders appears to have taken a visible leap between 1960 to 1964.

As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes only, before that time. De Kruif himself made no connection between testosterone and possible athletic applications - his arguments were purely from the perspective of using testosterone to improve the vitality and health of aging men and those with specific conditions.

It has been said that John Grimek, upon reading publications such as de Kruif's, was inquiring about testosterone in the 1940s. But he would have had nothing other than a possible hunch that it could be used for athletic purposes, and no source or opportunity to experiment with it. It wasn't until 1954/1955 with Ziegler, that Grimek wrote of getting his first testosterone injections. It stands to reason that if even Grimek had no access to testosterone, and no knowledge of other top level bodybuilders or lifters using it before this - and as editor of Strength and Health magazine and second in command at York he certainly was in a position to know - then it is very unlikely that anyone in the west was using it for athletic/physique purposes before late 1954/1955. Given that these early experiments were unsuccessful and brief (likely because they knew little about dosing for increased strength and muscle mass), it is most likely that the first western bodybuilders began steroid use not with testosterone itself, but with Nilevar, sometime after 1956 to 1958. From there, Dianabol enters the picture at the elite level and by 1964 even the muscle magazines, such as Iron Man, were writing about what they called the "tissue building drugs".

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

For these reasons it can be stated with some certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using testosterone or steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58 (Pearl won the Mr. USA and Mr. Universe titles in 1956 before his knowledge of Nilevar). Some athletes' careers from the era, such as Reg Park's, do span the introduction of steroids into bodybuilding. In Park's case, he competed at 214 pounds when he won the Mr. Universe title in 1951, he weighed 215 when he won it the second time in 1958, and 216 when he placed 3rd in 1971 (at age 43 - he returned again in 1973 to place 2nd). If Park did jump on the steroid bandwagon when he learned of them in 1960, then they produced one pound of muscle in 11 years for him.

[BB]

It's ok, we've had these arguments before, and as expected it all leads to folks simply believing all drugs must happen post Zeigler in the bodybuilding world .

[Overload]

Synthol was invented in 1996. Ronnie won the olympia 2 years afterwards. Therefore, Ronnie was using synthol. Right?

From a purely scientific approach, you cannot say that he wasn't, since it was obviously available and very popular at the time.  That's why these arguments are stupid, because nobody really knows, but if the compounds existed during his time, you cannot say with 100% accuracy that he didn't use them.

[funk51]

He was actually smaller in all of his films , producers wanted him lighter because he dwarfed his fellow actors. I've seen reports where he was down to 190lbs or lighter from when he competed around 215lbs

And the guy had exceptional genetics and muscle memory , you don't think it was possible to snap back into shape? He wasn't exceptionally large for his time either , Park was 225 at the same height. If he was 6'1" and weighed 235-240lbs I would entertain the thought , but 215lbs on a man with many consider to this day the best genetics the sports ever seen? come on

he was only 190 for the first hercules anf bigger in later movies....

[Rambone]

From a purely scientific approach, you cannot say that he wasn't, since it was obviously available and very popular at the time.  That's why these arguments are stupid, because nobody really knows, but if the compounds existed during his time, you cannot say with 100% accuracy that he didn't use them.

When the basis of someone's argument is since something exists, that the person automatically used that substance since it was technically available, that's a pretty weak argument.

[BB]

When the basis of someone's argument is since something exists, that the person automatically used that substance since it was technically available, that's a pretty weak argument.

Same could be said from totally dismissing something out of hand, simply because it doesn't fall within your desired time frame;).

[NarcissisticDeity]

It's ok, we've had these arguments before, and as expected it all leads to folks simply believing all drugs must happen post Zeigler in the bodybuilding world .

Did you miss this part??

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

[Overload]

When the basis of someone's argument is since something exists, that the person automatically used that substance since it was technically available, that's a pretty weak argument.

That's why it's stupid.  Technically speaking, you cannot prove something that is unknown.  Once something is available and statistically possible to have been used during that time, it has to be considered, that's how the scientific method works.  It's not a matter of the strength of the argument.  Subject could have been exposed to the compound, it's merely a possibility.  No proof in either direction, so it's pointless.  Something cannot be proven based on the unknown, you must have the opportunity for the occurrence to happen, which we have depending on who you talk to.

I don't care if Steve used AAS or not, but to say the man was a lifetime natural during a time when AAS were in fact available needs to backed up by proof.  Just like the counter argument that he used AAS.

Just like I've never used heroin or raped someone, but i can be classified as someone who "could have".

I'd honestly rather argue the existence of God than Steve using hormones.

[NarcissisticDeity]

That's why it's stupid.  Technically speaking, you cannot prove something that is unknown.  Once something is available and statistically possible to have been used during that time, it has to be considered, that's how the scientific method works.  It's not a matter of the strength of the argument.  Subject could have been exposed to the compound, it's merely a possibility.  No proof in either direction, so it's pointless.  Something cannot be proven based on the unknown, you must have the opportunity for the occurrence to happen, which we have depending on who you talk to.

I don't care if Steve used AAS or not, but to say the man was a lifetime natural during a time when AAS were in fact available needs to backed up by proof.  Just like the counter argument that he used AAS.

Just like I've never used heroin or raped someone, but i can be classified as someone who "could have".

I'd honestly rather argue the existence of God than Steve using hormones.

a time when AAS were in fact available

Simply not accurate , they weren't ' available ' 

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

[BB]

Did you miss this part??

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

Bodybuilding magazine horseshit. Again multiple compounds freely available to the point of methyltestosterone being avaliable for order through major magazines of the time, open discussion about it in the major media of the day  (De Kruif's book, etc....),  etc....

Again, did Reeves use? I don't know, I don't care. But to dismiss the idea that steroids weren't a complete unknown to the average man at the time? That is laughable. It smacks of a person simply trying to protect the name of boyhood idols.

[orion]

A rational well thought out post.

he was gifted from the beginning no drugs needed

Yes, those pics show a physique that can be attained without steroids.  I remember in high school there were 3 guys who had similar physiques.  Coincidentally all three were gymnasts.  Considering the era and their ages and the country I can tell you for a fact no one even heard of steroids.

[JasonH]

I think ND has this one right - on the balance of probability Reeves was clean.

From what I've read in the past about him he was just over 6'0 tall and weighed about 210 at his heaviest. Anyway, the pictures don't lie - that physique is easily attainable naturally.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Bodybuilding magazine horseshit. Again multiple compounds freely available to the point of methyltestosterone being avaliable for order through major magazines of the time, open discussion about it in the major media of the day  (De Kruif's book, etc....),  etc....

Again, did Reeves use? I don't know, I don't care. But to dismiss the idea that steroids weren't a complete unknown to the average man at the time? That is laughable. It smacks of a person simply trying to protect the name of boyhood idols.

Bodybuilding magazine horseshit. Again multiple compounds freely available to the point of methyltestosterone being avaliable for order through major magazines of the time, open discussion about it in the major media of the day  (De Kruif's book, etc....),  etc....

It's horseshit because it doesn't fit your narrative   and FYI that's NOT from a bodybuilding magazine and somehow if it were that's a negative but the snake-oil ads in the back of men's magzines you're pushing isn't 

Again I have zero problems with PEDs I say they should be legal to use freely. I have no agenda with athletes using. But some people simply didn't use. it's a fact.  Your vague references are nothing more than wishful thinking , snake oil ads aren't proof.

[BB]

It's horseshit because it doesn't fit your narrative 

My narrative is perfectly sound - "Certain steroids were somewhat widely known and openly available on the free market before Dianabol, therefore it is not unimaginable that they may have been used before the invention of the steroid known as dianabol". Anyone who that does not have a vested interest in the topic can see that it is a perfectly logical stance.

[NarcissisticDeity]

My narrative is perfectly sound - "Certain steroids were somewhat widely known and openly available on the free market before Dianabol, therefore it is not unimaginable that they may have been used before the invention of the steroid known as dianabol". Anyone who that does not have a vested interest in the topic can see that it is a perfectly logical stance.

no it's most certainly NOT  ' a perfectly logical stance ' Sorry beg to differ. Snake-oil ads which equate to Cybergenics ads aren't worth the paper they were printed on. All those ' steroids ' weren't ' steroids '

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

[BB]

Take this list-

Androsterone - (Schering - 1934)
Androfort (Richter - 1936)
Testosterone Propionate - Sterandryl (Roussel - 1936)
Testoviron (British Schering - 1936)
Virormone (Paines & Byrne - 1936)
Perandren (Ciba - 1937)
Neo-Hombreol (Organon - 1937)
Pantestin (Richter - ?? *at least 1941)
Erugon-S (Bayer - ?? *at least 1941)
Methyltestosterone - Metandren (Ciba - 1940)
Perandren Linguets (Ciba - 1940)
Glosso-Sterandryl (Roussel - 1941)
Neo-Hombreol-M (Organon - 1941)
Oreton M (British Schering - 1942)
Oraviron (British Schering - 1942)
Viromone- Oral (Paines & Byrne - 1942)
Testosterone Cypionate

Type it into - https://books.google.com/  individually. See where those drugs are mentioned? Actual medical journals as being available for sale. Gosh, who'd of thunk it.

See that ad for MethylTest tablets in the magazines? Guess what the FDA did after a few years? They made Hudson remove them because they were actual drugs being sold - http://archive.nlm.nih.gov/fdanj/bitstream/123456789/13388/3/174001130.txt .  .

And this De Kruif fellow that had his book on testosterone reviewed by Life Magazine, The New York Times, etc....? Was this a schome with a Smith Corona? Nope, World respected doctor, friend of Upton Sinclair, and writer for some of the major magazines of the day -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_de_Kruif .

But yes, I'm sure that it was a deep dark secret till Zeigler    .

[Rambone]

Same could be said from totally dismissing something out of hand, simply because it doesn't fall within your desired time frame;).

You mean guilty till proven innocent? Makes sense...

[BB]

You mean guilty till proven innocent? Makes sense...

By that standard let's just stifle all specific "xxx bodybuilder's drug stack" talk till we hear them admit to usage or we see an actual Sustanon preload jammed into glute? Why are bodybuilders from early steroid eras protected by their fans, but Ruhl, Cutler, etc.... not?