Growing hate toward religious people at Getbig.com

[loco]

Besides, my personal belief is anyone who holds a fundamentalist belief in any religion is mentally ill (for real) which again makes for a pointless discussion

not only is it still my personal belief but I've responded to it the two times you posted it in this thread

I FVCKING HATE DELUSIONAL EVANGELICALS 

I will welcome the day that religion is forced underground!

What if the help was to formulate a plan to kill all christians? would you help me them?

It should be legal to kill religious zealots.

I've had people on these boards that hate that I'm a Christian that have told me they're gonna rape my wife and daughter, kill my family, that I should kill my daughter now before she's completely brainwashed and that they would kill me if given a chance.

Very sad indeed.

[Man of Steel]

I never debate religion and I've never post on the religion board (I've only looked at it once or twice)  

In my opinion it's pointless to debate with someone who holds a position without evidence or in contrary to evidence.

Besides, my personal belief is anyone who holds a fundamentalist belief in any religion is mentally ill (for real) which again makes for a pointless discussion

Totally feel this guy!!  I too prefer my self-gratifying posturing to remain unobstructed by any obnoxious "back and forth", clarification or context either.

I want my objections to be heard, my insults to be flung carelessly and I want to suffer no consequences in any form when my frequent, long-winded rants are concluded.

Plus, my position comes fully loaded with the presupposition that the object of my grandstanding is fully illogical, mentally ill and potentially dangerous.....there's no reasoning to be had and I know this as fact! 

Bully!!

[Man of Steel]

This little thread is riddled with hate, but in all honesty it's par for the course stuff:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=536578.0

It truly is a shame because I don't hate the people that appear to hate me.  I won't be speaking to some of them anymore.....just a shame.

I pray Christ does a powerful work in their lives that at least softens them a bit so they can seek to know him a bit more.

The Lord has brought me tremendous joy and peace in my life and I pray others can experience the same....even those that don't like me.  

[_bruce_]

Religion is a bedrock for spirituality but keeping at the same level and not moving on is kinda strange.
I love Christianity and honest Christians because they're great at detecting and revealing bullshit that has plagued earth for eternity.
Can't agree with the bible as being "perfect" though.

[Novena]

Fundamentalist Protestants really brought this on themselves. It is the unreasoned opposition to the concepts in Darwin’s  “Origin of Species” that is the fountainhead from which this all springs.

[Skeletor]

Zealots on all sides.

[Man of Steel]

Fundamentalist Protestants really brought this on themselves. It is the unreasoned opposition to the concepts in Darwin’s  “Origin of Species” that is the fountainhead from which this all springs.

"unreasoned opposition".....makes me LOL a bit....sorry not "hatin" 

[Gonuclear]

"unreasoned opposition".....makes me LOL a bit....sorry not "hatin" 

I think the hostility from atheists - especially the so-called "new atheists" like Hitchins, Dennett, Harris, and especially Dawkins - stems from their own uncertainty about faith and G-d.  Freud called it "reaction formation", which is attacking something in others in order to squelch it in yourself.

You can see the same thing at work in strident homophobes, who attack gays to suppress their own fear of being gay.

[Necrosis]

Very sad indeed.

How you gonna include me in this you. I hate all people equally, it hasn't grown either. I also don't think what strawman said was hateful in any way.

[Necrosis]

I think the hostility from atheists - especially the so-called "new atheists" like Hitchins, Dennett, Harris, and especially Dawkins - stems from their own uncertainty about faith and G-d.  Freud called it "reaction formation", which is attacking something in others in order to squelch it in yourself.

You can see the same thing at work in strident homophobes, who attack gays to suppress their own fear of being gay.

That's quite the belief, using freud's bullshit theories is also great. Perhaps his superego is being run by his id and Oedipus complex and repressed sexual desires. Get outta here with all that shit, they state they are uncertain, they see no reason to believe in this god. Where is he? The universe is set up for death.

[Man of Steel]

That's quite the belief, using freud's bullshit theories is also great. Perhaps his superego is being run by his id and Oedipus complex and repressed sexual desires. Get outta here with all that shit, they state they are uncertain, they see no reason to believe in this god. Where is he? The universe is set up for death.

Are you suggesting that since the universe is setup for death it can't be created by God?

[Necrosis]

Are you suggesting that since the universe is setup for death it can't be created by God?

Not at all, kinda fucked up that he set it up for death though?

[haider]

lol that's cute, try being jewish / muslim / black on the board.

[Man of Steel]

Not at all, kinda fucked up that he set it up for death though?

There's definite purpose behind it....it isn't capricious or sadistic.

I'll attempt to summarize:

God created us so that we may fellowship with him.  He desires to enter into a relationship with us.  God gave humanity the ability to choose and thereby gave mankind an almost bottomless well of potential choices to draw from.  Sin entered the world via our choices and brought with it decay and death and evil.  What is sin?  It's an offense against God....a breaking of his law.  God's law is divine and eternal.  Since God's finite creation can break his infinite, eternal law there comes with that choice infinite, eternal repurcussions.  Now, God expresses his infinite, divine nature through a trinity of persons in Father, Son and Spirit.  All are coeternal, coequal persons yet differently purposed and forming one God.  God entered the world and became flesh through his Son Jesus Christ.  Christ now exists with a dual nature in that he is both divine and human.  Theology refers to this as the hypostatic union.  Since the infinitely divine cannot perish he assumed a finite human form that can perish yet he lived a sinless, human life complete with freedom of choice.   He became the perfect sacrifice for our sin.  Sin leads to death, but since God is eternal life and our life is found in the blood, it was Christ's perfectly shed blood that symbolically covered over all of mankind's sin.....life in Christ trumps death in sin.  His sacrifice on Calvary's cross provided the way by which those who belief in him would be deemed righteous and thereby saved from the judgement of God.  This saved body of believers forms God's church.  Those who don't choose to align themselves with God will face the divine judgement yet have their choice to be permanently separated from God (and all his divine attributes) honored.  The good creation that God established did succumb to decay and death via sin, but that evil will be eliminated and a new creation will be established that is free from sin and populated with God's church.  The path were are on now is not the problem of evil it's the resolution of evil and it is accomplished one life at a time.  It's the freedom of choice that can result in either righteousness or unrightousness that makes the end result so pure and purposeful.   God allowed the choices to be made so that those that willingly chose God did so of their own volition.

[Necrosis]

There's definite purpose behind it....it isn't capricious or sadistic.

I'll attempt to summarize:

God created us so that we may fellowship with him.  He desires to enter into a relationship with us.  God gave humanity the ability to choose and thereby gave mankind an almost bottomless well of potential choices to draw from.  Sin entered the world via our choices and brought with it decay and death and evil.  What is sin?  It's an offense against God....a breaking of his law.  God's law is divine and eternal.  Since God's finite creation can break his infinite, eternal law there comes with that choice infinite, eternal repurcussions.  Now, God expresses his infinite, divine nature through a trinity of persons in Father, Son and Spirit.  All are coeternal, coequal persons yet differently purposed and forming one God.  God entered the world and became flesh through his Son Jesus Christ.  Christ now exists with a dual nature in that he is both divine and human.  Theology refers to this as the hypostatic union.  Since the infinitely divine cannot perish he assumed a finite human form that can perish yet he lived a sinless, human life complete with freedom of choice.   He became the perfect sacrifice for our sin.  Sin leads to death, but since God is eternal life and our life is found in the blood, it was Christ's perfectly shed blood that symbolically covered over all of mankind's sin.....life in Christ trumps death in sin.  His sacrifice on Calvary's cross provided the way by which those who belief in him would be deemed righteous and thereby saved from the judgement of God.  This saved body of believers forms God's church.  Those who don't choose to align themselves with God will face the divine judgement yet have their choice to be permanently separated from God (and all his divine attributes) honored.  The good creation that God established did succumb to decay and death via sin, but that evil will be eliminated and a new creation will be established that is free from sin and populated with God's church.  The path were are on now is not the problem of evil it's the resolution of evil and it is accomplished one life at a time.  It's the freedom of choice that can result in either righteousness or unrightousness that makes the end result so pure and purposeful.   God allowed the choices to be made so that those that willingly chose God did so of their own volition.

Didn't he drown everyone in a flood to start over? so he had to start over twice? jesus being the second mulligan? would this be an accurate statement?

I also don't buy the choices argument, being god he has control of the options. If I put my kid on the floor and know he is going to pick up shit I don't lay grenades and blades on the floor. That's what god has done, he has created a brutally void universe where life appears to be the exception.

What is the purpose of heaven? what is your purpose as a dead person there?

[Gonuclear]

Didn't he drown everyone in a flood to start over? so he had to start over twice? jesus being the second mulligan? would this be an accurate statement?

I also don't buy the choices argument, being god he has control of the options. If I put my kid on the floor and know he is going to pick up shit I don't lay grenades and blades on the floor. That's what god has done, he has created a brutally void universe where life appears to be the exception.

What is the purpose of heaven? what is your purpose as a dead person there?

The problem of evil and human suffering is indeed a challenge - perhaps the greatest challenge - to believing in the benevolence and omnipotence of G-d.  You are absolutely right about that.

The answers that helped me with these questions are in Rabbi Harold Kushner's "When Bad Things Happen to Good People.".

He wrote it after his son died from an incurable genetic disease.  The book rejects the idea that suffering and illness and catastrophes are in any way part of G-d's inscrutable (to us) "plan".   It offers a very deep alternative.  Reading it restored my faith after a series of horrible events that befell my family.

[Necrosis]

The problem of evil and human suffering is indeed a challenge - perhaps the greatest challenge - to believing in the benevolence and omnipotence of G-d.  You are absolutely right about that.

The answers that helped me with these questions are in Rabbi Harold Kushner's "When Bad Things Happen to Good People.".

He wrote it after his son died from an incurable genetic disease.  The book rejects the idea that suffering and illness and catastrophes are in any way part of G-d's inscrutable (to us) "plan".   It offers a very deep alternative.  Reading it restored my faith after a series of horrible events that befell my family.

Let me guess, god distances himself from creation and weeps because he can do nothing for interference would remove free will, true love etc.

Post his argument or central thesis if you will

[Gonuclear]

Let me guess, god distances himself from creation and weeps because he can do nothing for interference would remove free will, true love etc.

Post his argument or central thesis if you will

I'll try, but if you are at all interested, I suggest you read it yourself.

G-d created nature and the laws that govern nature.  Nature is imperfect, by definition and since human beings are part of nature, we are also imperfect.

Let's assume that G-d intervened continuously in nature so that nothing bad ever happened to anyone.  Or maybe just to evil people.  So if someone fell off a building who was good, G-d rescued him or her.  But if someone like Hitler did it, He would let him fall to his death.

If G-d did that, there would not be any regularity in nature, no natural laws for humans to discover so that they could find cures for diseases, invent agriculture, technology, etc.  Because you could not predict anything, since G-d would micro-manage every single event to make sure that good always won out.

In that kind of universe, people would wind up being like the Eloi in H. G. Wells' "The Time Machine.". They would become utterly passive, dependent like children on what G-d did or did not do for them.

G-d did not want to create that kind of universe, as He makes clear in Genesis by giving mankind the knowledge of good and evil, which requires self-awareness, and dominion over the world.  So it's more than making free will possible; it's about making the world intelligible and hospitable to humanity.

Kushner also discusses how G-d helps us when we suffer and how He does suffer with us.  Why?  It is a fundamental part of His nature.  Here I would have to refer you to Kushner directly, since I don't remember enough of that thread to give you a good account of it.

And I have to also say again that I don't think any of the above really does justice to the book overall; Kushner approaches these issues from many viewpoints and does a far better job of developing his ideas than what I have tried to capture in this summary.

It is not really Deism; it is more about the logic of what it means to have created the kind of universe we live in so that we, as part of creation, can understand and live in it using the gifts that G-d has given us.

[Man of Steel]

Didn't he drown everyone in a flood to start over? so he had to start over twice? jesus being the second mulligan? would this be an accurate statement?

I also don't buy the choices argument, being god he has control of the options. If I put my kid on the floor and know he is going to pick up shit I don't lay grenades and blades on the floor. That's what god has done, he has created a brutally void universe where life appears to be the exception.

What is the purpose of heaven? what is your purpose as a dead person there?

You bring up a good point, but it lacks some context (no offense). 

Did God drown everyone and start over?  No.

Picture the worst person you can that has committed so much atrocity that it turns your stomach and then populate the earth with that type of person.  Then give those folks hundreds and hundreds of years to turn from their evil ways.  Give them chance after chance after chance.   Allow them to bring new life into the world and fully corrupt generation after generation of children.  At some point something has to give and it did - God passed down judgment upon a reprobate world.     He saved the few righteous that existed and flooded the earth, but that earth is same earth you and I exist on today.

We have many examples of God handing down judgment upon reprobate societies in scripture.  These groups of folks were always given hundreds and hundreds of years to repent and turn from their sin, but they refused to change and thereby refused God.   These are the Lord’s very early periods of education  in which the Almighty lets humanity know that utter and complete adoption of sinful depravity will not be tolerated and that God’s justice will be administered.  Be it flood, fire, famine or man God has given us clear examples of how he views sin, judges sin and punishes sin.....he uses a number of instruments.  Why don't we see that judgment handed down today?  Personally I believe mankind has finally begun to understand that reprobate sin and utter depravity won't be tolerated by God. I believe we’ve become a better version of mankind, but it won’t last (that’s prophetic).   It seems that once that condition is entered into and repeated indefinitely divine judgment becomes inevitable; although, this time judgment has been reserved for one final outcome.

In these OT circumstances what we see exemplified is humanity’s inherent need of divine salvation.....everything points to the person of Jesus Christ.   The Son of God isn’t a mulligan….he’s the prophetic answer to the problem of evil.   Today’s world has been left with a history of judgments handed down by God that illustrates very clearly that man alone is incapable of righteousness on their own, but they are capable of choosing to align themselves with ultimate righteousness.   In the days of Abraham the new covenant of Christ did not yet exist, but Abraham had righteousness credited to him because he chose to align himself with God and serve his will and not his own.   

Good news about the universe is that despite God’s ultimate control you exist on an exquisitely designed planet that fully sustains your life.  God has also entrusted this creation and it’s ample resources to the whole of humanity.   Now, for my understanding, what are the “grenades and razor blades” you mention?   We’ve already established that sin brings death and decay upon us, but the world didn’t begin that way. 

You don’t buy the choices argument?  Well, that is your choice.

The purpose of heaven?  It’s the dwelling place of God.   

What is your purpose as a dead person there?   There are no dead people in heaven.   As we discussed earlier we were created to enter into a relationship with God…..he wants to fellowship with us.

[Man of Steel]

I'll try, but if you are at all interested, I suggest you read it yourself.

G-d created nature and the laws that govern nature.  Nature is imperfect, by definition and since human beings are part of nature, we are also imperfect.

Let's assume that G-d intervened continuously in nature so that nothing bad ever happened to anyone.  Or maybe just to evil people.  So if someone fell off a building who was good, G-d rescued him or her.  But if someone like Hitler did it, He would let him fall to his death.

If G-d did that, there would not be any regularity in nature, no natural laws for humans to discover so that they could find cures for diseases, invent agriculture, technology, etc.  Because you could not predict anything, since G-d would micro-manage every single event to make sure that good always won out.

In that kind of universe, people would wind up being like the Eloi in H. G. Wells' "The Time Machine.". They would become utterly passive, dependent like children on what G-d did or did not do for them.

G-d did not want to create that kind of universe, as He makes clear in Genesis by giving mankind the knowledge of good and evil, which requires self-awareness, and dominion over the world.  So it's more than making free will possible; it's about making the world intelligible and hospitable to humanity.

Kushner also discusses how G-d helps us when we suffer and how He does suffer with us.  Why?  It is a fundamental part of His nature.  Here I would have to refer you to Kushner directly, since I don't remember enough of that thread to give you a good account of it.

And I have to also say again that I don't think any of the above really does justice to the book overall; Kushner approaches these issues from many viewpoints and does a far better job of developing his ideas than what I have tried to capture in this summary.

It is not really Deism; it is more about the logic of what it means to have created the kind of universe we live in so that we, as part of creation, can understand and live in it using the gifts that G-d has given us.

There's the crux.  It's always about what we need and what we can learn.  

This notion that God is impotent or sadistic or does things in error does not hold water when the vastly greater context is considered.

[OTHstrong]

I don't mind taking the hits, the odd time during the heated discussions you get something out of those hating atheist lol, like necrosis, I finally got him to say his position on the existing universe is not logical,... after all these years on getbig making it seem like God is not logical and their position is,... oh oh foot in mouth 

[Necrosis]

You bring up a good point, but it lacks some context (no offense). 

Did God drown everyone and start over?  No.

Picture the worst person you can that has committed so much atrocity that it turns your stomach and then populate the earth with that type of person.  Then give those folks hundreds and hundreds of years to turn from their evil ways.  Give them chance after chance after chance.   Allow them to bring new life into the world and fully corrupt generation after generation of children.  At some point something has to give and it did - God passed down judgment upon a reprobate world.     He saved the few righteous that existed and flooded the earth, but that earth is same earth you and I exist on today.

Ya, that's some crazy dictator shit right there dude. No matter how nicely you put it he knew what he was going to do before he did it yet continued with worldwide genocide. I find your thinking process disturbing to be honest. Kids, infants would have been drown there is no justification for that, zero.


We have many examples of God handing down judgment upon reprobate societies in scripture.  These groups of folks were always given hundreds and hundreds of years to repent and turn from their sin, but they refused to change and thereby refused God.   These are the Lord’s very early periods of education  in which the Almighty lets humanity know that utter and complete adoption of sinful depravity will not be tolerated and that God’s justice will be administered.  Be it flood, fire, famine or man God has given us clear examples of how he views sin, judges sin and punishes sin.....he uses a number of instruments.  Why don't we see that judgment handed down today?  Personally I believe mankind has finally begun to understand that reprobate sin and utter depravity won't be tolerated by God. I believe we’ve become a better version of mankind, but it won’t last (that’s prophetic).   It seems that once that condition is entered into and repeated indefinitely divine judgment becomes inevitable; although, this time judgment has been reserved for one final outcome.
Been a while since handed down some judgement huh? I bet he never will again now that we don't believe in magic

In these OT circumstances what we see exemplified is humanity’s inherent need of divine salvation.....everything points to the person of Jesus Christ.   The Son of God isn’t a mulligan….he’s the prophetic answer to the problem of evil.   Today’s world has been left with a history of judgments handed down by God that illustrates very clearly that man alone is incapable of righteousness on their own, but they are capable of choosing to align themselves with ultimate righteousness.   In the days of Abraham the new covenant of Christ did not yet exist, but Abraham had righteousness credited to him because he chose to align himself with God and serve his will and not his own.   

Oh it's a mulligan, that's two failures on god's watch in my eyes.

Good news about the universe is that despite God’s ultimate control you exist on an exquisitely designed planet that fully sustains your life.  God has also entrusted this creation and it’s ample resources to the whole of humanity.   Now, for my understanding, what are the “grenades and razor blades” you mention?   We’ve already established that sin brings death and decay upon us, but the world didn’t begin that way. 
The world begin as a molten fucking lava mass of death. You are delusional if you think it's exquisitely designed also. It will be engulfed by the sun in a miserable death, such a pleasant place. if his design for a home is something that will ultimately burn and explode then yes it is great . There is no reason the sun need explode, it indicates no plan instead of a plan.

You don’t buy the choices argument?  Well, that is your choice.

The purpose of heaven?  It’s the dwelling place of God.   

What is your purpose as a dead person there?   There are no dead people in heaven.   As we discussed earlier we were created to enter into a relationship with God…..he wants to fellowship with us.
can we test your theory somehow?

[Man of Steel]

Ya, that's some crazy dictator shit right there dude. No matter how nicely you put it he knew what he was going to do before he did it yet continued with worldwide genocide. I find your thinking process disturbing to be honest. Kids, infants would have been drown there is no justification for that, zero.

Now what you're about to read may be offend you, but that’s not my intent.  

Ok, your perspective and conclusions are basically founded on notion that God does not exist.   For you, when this life ends there's nothing else.  If God takes a life you simply classify him as a murderer just like Dahmer, or Hitler or a gang member killing for whatever reason.  A life is taken by God and there’s no justification for it.  Everything you interpret of God you do so with a "God does not exist" and a “life then death then nothing” idea.  You factor God into your argument up to a point and then stop.  You stop at the point of sin because you deny the notion of "offenses against God".  You deny offenses against God because you deny God.  Yet you'll consider his involvement in the context of our finite lives and force the reason behind his actions to align with those of mankind.  You simply reject that there is no greater purpose in what he does.  Where God is concerned nothing stands apart and nothing is transcendent. In a crude way, God becomes the same as your neighbor Doug or your coworker Sue…..all subject to the same pattern of “life then death then nothing”.  If Doug takes a life or God takes a life it’s treated in the same manner….there is no demarcation there whatsoever.  You infuse God into the human experience and make absolute comparisons between the actions of the creator and the actions of the created.  Yet, you deny everything transcendant that makes God who he truly is.  You refuse to make the will of God greater, different, more just or more purposeful than your own.

Yes, children died in the flood.  I assume then that from your chair that means that lives were ended mercilessly and brutally….no more, no less….God murdered them.   From my chair, God rescued those same children from a life in which they too would’ve adopted their parents reprobate behavior and become permanently separated from God as they would’ve died in their sin like the generations before them.   Those innocents taken by the flood now exist with God….they were spared.  God ended that cycle of utter depravity in one fail swoop.   Further, considering that God is both merciful and just is seems reasonable that the innocents....the children....that perished via the flood may have done so without pain.  I can't confirm that idea though.

Yes, God knew what would happen, but he also made it clear to us what would happen if people sinned.  God gave us boundaries (via his law), he gave us choice, he gave us responsibility and he put in place repurcussions for violations of his law.   Although, when folks entire this life they do so in a state of innocence.  We progress into sin based upon our choice, but we’re created spotless.   The world chose to indulge in sin, God gave them centuries to repent and they refused….judgment was handed down.  Law without consequences is not truly law….it’s nothing.  God’s omniscience doesn’t negate our choices nor does knowing an outcome make God a sadist.  God still has only one will for our lives.  He created us so that we may fellowship with him.  He didn’t create us in to die in our sin….he created us to live with him.  

How does God prevent his omniscience?   Why does the reprobate world get a pass in your eyes?  Why are their actions glossed over?  I’d honestly like to know that.  
 

Been a while since handed down some judgment huh? I bet he never will again now that we don't believe in magic

Nothing to add.

Oh it's a mulligan, that's two failures on god's watch in my eyes.

Well, despite what I explained that’s absolutely your choice to feel that way.

The world begin as a molten fucking lava mass of death. You are delusional if you think it's exquisitely designed also. It will be engulfed by the sun in a miserable death, such a pleasant place. if his design for a home is something that will ultimately burn and explode then yes it is great . There is no reason the sun need explode, it indicates no plan instead of a plan.

How is it that you know there’s no purpose behind exploding stars?   There’s the vast majority of the universe out there we know absolutely nothing about.   How is it you have assurance that the greater context of the universe isn’t connected with definite purpose?   Just because you perceive something as meaningless doesn’t make it so.  In fact, Lawrence Krauss has stated that the most poetic aspect of the universe is the explosion of stars themselves in that their explosion can lead to the generation of heavier elements that could potentially lead to new life.  As he states, "We are all made of stardust."   Now, I'm not here to debate his position.  I mention it because modern cosmology disagrees with your position, but I'd like to know why you are certain exploding stars have no purpose (or reason)?

can we test your theory somehow?

Would the revelation of Jesus Christ in your life be enough to validate what I’ve stated is correct?  If God himself can be revealed in your life what else would be needed?   Would knowing with certainty that he is alive and is the life-giving source validate for you that there is life in those that believe in him and dwell with him once they exit this life?