Author Topic: Do todays Christians know more about prayer than Jesus did?  (Read 3023 times)

Agnostic007

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Jesus in Matt 6 verses 5-13

Prayer

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
 
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:


“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
    but deliver us from the evil one.



Todays Christians feel public prayers at all manner of events is actually the way to go. Are they saying Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he gave explicit instructions on prayer?

Agnostic007

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Re: Do todays Christians know more about prayer than Jesus did?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2014, 09:22:13 AM »
OPINION: Prayers at meetings of lawmakers: What would Jesus think?


 On July 12, the Henrico County Board of Supervisors decided to stop having public prayers at its meetings. As one might expect, the decision has generated controversy. Let us assume, however, that a plan could be devised whereby a large percentage of the sectarian prayers would be delivered by Christian clergy and that the courts would approve of it. Should Christians approve of it? Would Jesus Christ approve of it?
 

On July 12, the Henrico County Board of Supervisors decided to stop having public prayers at its meetings. As one might expect, the decision has generated controversy. The editors of the Richmond Times-Dispatch expressed approval of the decision; a few days later Ben Sparks, a retired Presbyterian minister, expressed disapproval and letters to the editor of the newspaper have been divided in their opinions.
 
Why did the supervisors make the decision? Some federal courts have held that only non-sectarian prayers—i.e., prayers that would be acceptable to persons of any religion—can be delivered at official government meetings without violating the religion clauses of the First Amendment. At one of the supervisors’ previous meetings a Christian prayer was delivered, and Muslims who were present at the meeting complained and hinted that they might sue the county for violating their constitutional rights.
 
Given these facts, the supervisors were faced with a dilemma. Although they could have decided to continue opening their meetings with non-sectarian prayers, they knew that if they did, many of those asked to say the prayers would object to having to “water-down” their prayers so they would be non-sectarian. Faced with this dilemma, the supervisors opted for no prayers at all.
 
Did the supervisors make the right decision? Not according to Rev. Sparks. He believes that the dilemma could have been avoided if the supervisors had decided to allow sectarian prayers but also to make sure that clergy from “all faith traditions” were asked to pray on behalf of the government.
 
Would, however, such a policy be upheld by the courts? Rev. Sparks presents no reason to think that it would. He apparently assumes that such a policy would meet the constitutional requirement of government neutrality toward all religions, but whether it would depends on its specifics. If all Christian denominations were considered to be “faith traditions” and their clergy, along with those of non-Christian religions, took turns leading prayers, then the overwhelming majority of the sectarian prayers would be Christian. Such a policy would be unlikely to be acceptable to the courts or to the adherents of minority religions.
 
Another alternative would be to treat Christianity as just one religion, along with Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and a few others, which would mean that its clergy would pray only once every five or six times the supervisors met. That might be acceptable to the courts, but it would certainly not be acceptable to most citizens of Henrico County and would likely lead to more religious conflict in the county.
 
Let us assume, however, that a plan could be devised whereby a large percentage of the sectarian prayers would be delivered by Christian clergy and that the courts would approve of it. Should Christians approve of it? Would Jesus Christ approve of it?
 
In Jesus’ day, the Pharisees functioned as both religious and civic leaders; Jesus said they sat “in the chair of Moses.” He also repeatedly condemned them for being “hypocrites,” persons whose prayers and good deeds were done to impress others but who were “dead” inside. (See Matthew 23.)
 
With them in mind, Jesus said to his disciples, “Be careful not to make a show of your religion before men” because God ignores it. He advised them not to pray in public, but “in secret” and in “a room by yourself” where God is present and will hear their prayers (Matthew 6: 1-6).
 
These passages suggest that Jesus, if alive today, would not approve of public prayers at meetings of lawmakers. Granted, the lawmakers themselves do not say the prayers, but they are responsible and receive credit for them.
 
Notice, however, Jesus would not necessarily disapprove of all prayers by or for legislators. If they sincerely wanted to ask God to guide their deliberations and decision-making, there is a way they could do so without appearing to be insincere or currying favor with their constituents. They could have prayers, led either by themselves or invited clergy, before their meetings start and in a private room rather than in front of the citizens at their meetings. Such prayers could be sectarian, and attendance by officials would be voluntary. Above all, they would be more likely to be authentic than prayers prayed in the presence of the lawmakers’ constituents.
 
Jesus advised his disciples, however, on the assumption that they sincerely wanted to pray.  What if the reason for public prayers at meetings of lawmakers is not to ask for God’s guidance, but is to send a civic message to those present and to the wider community? It is on this basis that Rev. Sparks justifies public prayers before legislative bodies. If done inclusively, he says, they would “signal” that the lawmakers believe in religious tolerance and in being accountable to a higher power. 
 
Would Jesus be impressed with this rationale for the prayers? Not likely. Although he would surely want lawmakers to feel accountable to God and promote religious tolerance, would he favor using public prayers sponsored by lawmakers as the way to attain these worthy goals? Notice that under such a rationale, all that matters is that the prayers come from a wide range of religions and imply that the lawmakers are accountable to some higher power. It does not matter whether any lawmaker believes what is said in the prayers or even prays. Even if the clergyperson saying the prayers is sincere, the reason for the prayers is not to reach God, but to indoctrinate.
 
In short, using public prayer to express and promote civic values constitutes a perversion of prayer. Does the promotion of important civic values justify such an outcome? I think I know what Jesus would answer.
 
Ellis West, emeritus professor of political science at the University of Richmond, is a member of River Road Church, Baptist, in Richmond, Va.
 

Man of Steel

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Re: Do todays Christians know more about prayer than Jesus did?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2014, 09:22:40 AM »
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=343399.msg4818004#msg4818004

Here's a link to a similar thread started by you on this topic.

I'll find my post in another thread on this same topic if I can find it.

Man of Steel

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Re: Do todays Christians know more about prayer than Jesus did?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2014, 09:32:00 AM »
In short, the gist of Christ's instruction is about humility and reverence in prayer.  

Don't be like the Pharisees praying with all their pomp and circumstance so as to show off in front of the masses.  Instead, make the prayer about God and your relationship with him....seeking his will for your life.  Praying privately reinforces the idea that the focus is off you and on God because there is no audience other than God.  Christ did pray publically, but chose to pray privately for the most part.  The idea is the connection between the saved and their savior....the focus should be on the savior not the saved.  

Grandiose displays of public prayer is often nothing more than pious grandstanding at its finest....it becomes about the individual praying and not the Lord.  Although, it is completely possible for someone to pray in a public setting and the focus be completely upon Christ.

Agnostic007

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Re: Do todays Christians know more about prayer than Jesus did?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2014, 11:30:51 AM »
In short, the gist of Christ's instruction is about humility and reverence in prayer.  

Don't be like the Pharisees praying with all their pomp and circumstance so as to show off in front of the masses.  Instead, make the prayer about God and your relationship with him....seeking his will for your life.  Praying privately reinforces the idea that the focus is off you and on God because there is no audience other than God.  Christ did pray publically, but chose to pray privately for the most part.  The idea is the connection between the saved and their savior....the focus should be on the savior not the saved.  

Grandiose displays of public prayer is often nothing more than pious grandstanding at its finest....it becomes about the individual praying and not the Lord.  Although, it is completely possible for someone to pray in a public setting and the focus be completely upon Christ.

I was looking for something that I disagreed with in your post and came up short. Good post. Personally, I think most of the public prayers and government settings is more about pandering and less about god as shown by their fruits. I think it would be a safe bet just to take Jesus at his word on how to pray verses trying to create a subjective "work around" because we want to do it in public. Just the fact someone insists on conducting their prayers in public should cause someone to question their true motive.. jmo   

The Scott

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Re: Do todays Christians know more about prayer than Jesus did?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2014, 07:07:14 PM »
I was looking for something that I disagreed with in your post and came up short. Good post. Personally, I think most of the public prayers and government settings is more about pandering and less about god as shown by their fruits. I think it would be a safe bet just to take Jesus at his word on how to pray verses trying to create a subjective "work around" because we want to do it in public. Just the fact someone insists on conducting their prayers in public should cause someone to question their true motive.. jmo   

True.  Many pray for the attention it gives them from believers.  I suspect they're praying for votes and by that I am certain you know what I mean.  I am skeptical about the world in general and mankind in particular. 

For many, prayer is a private matter.  Do that which  you do in private and with all reverence lest you look for all the world to be a posturing poseur.  God knows the heart, too bad that mankind so often prays with the head. 

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Re: Do todays Christians know more about prayer than Jesus did?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2014, 07:51:27 PM »
 Good post as always, MOS.

 Christ was opposed to pretentious, hypocritical prayer--and given the condition of our government, I think He'd be opposed to its leaders praying before meetings.