Automotive gaskets - machined with extremely high tolerances?

[Roger Bacon]

Marty Champion and I were doing some brainstorming last night with the boys. Anyway, we were wondering if engine gaskets would be necessary is the parts were perfectly machined with extremely high tolerances?

[That_Dude]

Yes they would still be needed

[Mr Nobody]

Snug tight just with a hand wrench always worked for me, Roger.

[Obvious Gimmick]

Snug tight just with a hand lube always worked for me, Roger

[Roger Bacon]

lol^^

[Roger Bacon]

Yes they would still be needed

Because of expansion and contraction?

[Shockwave]

Marty Champion and I were doing some brainstorming last night with the boys. Anyway, we were wondering if engine gaskets would be necessary is the parts were perfectly machined with extremely high tolerances?

As a machinist, both industrial and automotive racing,  the answer is yes. Period.

[Roger Bacon]

As a machinist, both industrial and automotive racing,  the answer is yes. Period.

Thanks, I was hoping you would reply!

Is it because of the change in temperature?

[polychronopolous]

I dunno bro.

Maybe JB Weld it or somethin.

[Shockwave]

Thanks, I was hoping you would reply!

Is it because of the change in temperature?

Lots of things. Heat cycling, porosity of the materials, differing types of materials... the list goes on and on. The automotive indusrry in the USA has made great strides in gasket technology in the last 20 years, the newer seals and gaskets seal 100x better than the old style stuff.

[Tapeworm]

omg omg omg

So, anyway, yeah, I think so.  Since metal, what with being all incompressible (ya) is unlikely to forgive even CNC deviations.  There's no such thing as perfect machining.  And there's going to be differential thermal movement, which calls for a springy joint that will not just be expansive in a gap but will get out of the way when pinched and then return when needed.  Then the issue of wear (where applicable) and servicability, bottom line being that nothing perfectly mated (in theory) will stay that way. 

I can't confirm it but it makes sense to me that jointing material is also designed to expand /contract with appropriate sponginess with the right oil.  I bet there's a whole dynamic going on there between oil viscosity and joint impregnibility, oil contamination & joint degredation, etc.

Never worked on an engine.  Did the gaskets on my lathe.

[Rami]

I think they should cast the whole damn engine in one piece,

the block and head in one piece around the pistons. yeah you cant access for repairs etc but imagien the combustion pressure you could alow without blowing anything, and some crazy high octane fuel choices. maybe even unrefined corn oil.

[Shockwave]

omg omg omg

So, anyway, yeah, I think so.  Since metal, what with being all incompressible (ya) is unlikely to forgive even CNC deviations.  There's no such thing as perfect machining.  And there's going to be differential thermal movement, which calls for a springy joint that will not just be expansive in a gap but will get out of the way when pinched and then return when needed.  Then the issue of wear (where applicable) and servicability, bottom line being that nothing perfectly mated (in theory) will stay that way. 

I can't confirm it but it makes sense to me that jointing material is also designed to expand /contract with appropriate sponginess with the right oil.  I bet there's a whole dynamic going on there between oil viscosity and joint impregnibility, oil contamination & joint degredation, etc.

Never worked on an engine.  Did the gaskets on my lathe.

Prett much correct on all counts. I wasnt going to go thay into depth, but yes. A gasket has to has a certain amount of maleability and formability in that it has to expand and contract wirh the heat cycling that goes on in an internal combustion engine, as the cylinders start their cycle, all your perfect machine work goes out the window (to a point), so the gasket has to take up the slack, seal and fill the porosity in the metals enough so that the fluids cannot work their way between them, etc etc etc

[Tapeworm]

As a machinist, both industrial and automotive racing,  the answer is yes. Period.

Fuck, are you?!  I'm in awe of you guys.  Can't wait to find some time to get into a workshop of my own.  Keith Fenner's are some of my favorite YouTubes.

I've got an old Holbrook C10 out there in the garage, awaiting restoration.  Bit of a work in progress, I'm afraid.  Other than grime, my lack of time (and lack of 3 phase lol), ways & gears etc are in very cherry cond.  Dickhead damage to the compound mount will be the biggest hurdle.  I date it late war, 1943 or so.  Amazing finish with cast brass plates all over it.

Warning: I may PM endlessly in the future.

[Kim Jong Bob]

Thanks, I was hoping you would reply!

Is it because of the change in temperature?

i can answer this

Lots of things. Heat cycling, porosity of the materials, differing types of materials... the list goes on and on. The automotive indusrry in the USA has made great strides in gasket technology in the last 20 years, the newer seals and gaskets seal 100x better than the old style stuff.

[Mr Nobody]

i can answer this

Lots of things. Heat cycling, porosity of the materials, differing types of materials... the list goes on and on. The automotive indusrry in the USA has made great strides in gasket technology in the last 20 years, the newer seals and gaskets seal 100x better than the old style stuff.

They learned from North Korea finally.

[Shockwave]

Fuck, are you?!  I'm in awe of you guys.  Can't wait to find some time to get into a workshop of my own.  Keith Fenner's are some of my favorite YouTubes.

I've got an old Holbrook C10 out there in the garage, awaiting restoration.  Bit of a work in progress, I'm afraid.  Other than grime, my lack of time (and lack of 3 phase lol), ways & gears etc are in very cherry cond.  Dickhead damage to the compound mount will be the biggest hurdle.  I date it late war, 1943 or so.  Amazing finish with cast brass plates all over it.

Warning: I may PM endlessly in the future.

Right now im actually responsible for R&D on a 5 axis CNC mill specialized for cylinder head porting.

[Shockwave]

Hey tape, ill get back to you later. Im actually just heading out with my family to go visit a sick grandparent.

[Tapeworm]

Right now im actually responsible for R&D on a 5 axis CNC mill specialized for cylinder head porting.

Look man, I've got a lathe from 1943 and no training.  5 axis?!  What do you want from me?  


That sounds like a damn cool way to make a living.  The computerization stuff would leave me in the dust tho.  

Edit: No worries man.  Gotta crash myself.

[Kim Jong Bob]

They learned from North Korea finally.

Right now im actually responsible for R&D on a 5 axis CNC mill specialized for cylinder head porting. In pyongyang, bestckorea

[Fuzzy Nuts]

VW sent out a service bulletin in the 90's recommending removing the cylinder head gaskets on the aircooled motors. Common practice on these motors. So, for all you know it alls, try to do better.

[Lustral]

I'm always secretly jealous when I see such informed replies to threads like this. 

Now I know how The Trainer feels when he reads big words.

[Rami]

I think it's high time for a complete rethinking the combustion engine, from the ground up. We should come up with a new blueprint. There HAS to be simpler more efficient way to convert calories of gasoline to motion. Its downright foolish.

[Lustral]

I think it's high time for a complete rethinking the combustion engine, from the ground up. We should come up with a new blueprint. There HAS to be simpler more efficient way to convert calories of gasoline to motion. Its downright foolish.

Judging by new cars and F1 it is going towards hybrids and reusing stored energy for now. Electric cars are a crock of shit right now, not just because of range but also the carbon dioxide used to make hippy cars (including using rare metals) is fare greater than a normal car yet it is ignored when people look at CO2 emissions.

[Rami]

Allow me to present the future of combustion engines!