Christians and Alcohol

[Man of Steel]

I found it interesting:

[Purge_WTF]

I watched this recently. I believe he made the case for "wine" pretty much being glorified grape juice in Christ's time.

I prefer to drop the Gnosticism and believe that moderate alcohol intake is lawful in God's eyes.

[Man of Steel]

He discussed the concept of mixed wine having a ratio of 20 or 30 parts water to 1 part wine and how that greatly differs in our standards of alcohol today.  He discussed how drinking unmixed wine was considered a behavior of barbarians at that time.

It covers much more though.

I am interested to know more about your opinion of Gnostic theology as it pertains to the video.

[Purge_WTF]

He discussed the concept of mixed wine having a ratio of 20 or 30 parts water to 1 part wine and how that greatly differs in our standards of alcohol today.  He discussed how drinking unmixed wine was considered a behavior of barbarians at that time.

It covers much more though.

I am interested to know more about your opinion of Gnostic theology as it pertains to the video.

I'm opposed to the brand of Gnosticism that proclaims every degree of personal inclination to be inherently evil - no alcohol, even in moderation, sex for procreation only, etc. Folks like Tertullian and Origen injected that rubbish into Christianity and helped morph Christ into one of the stiff-upper-lipped Pharisees that He condemned. This sums it up well:

http://www.thefamilyinternational.org/dossier/books/book5/main.htm

[The Scott]

I don't drink alcoholic beverages but I don't find it to be a sin to do so, as with many things in life you know when you are doing wrong.  Example:  Sex with your husband or wife is not a sin.  Sex outside that promise is.

People need to be responsible for their actions and the reactions those will cause.  Including those that would lead the faith.  Test their words against The Word.

[a_ahmed]

There are over 70 verses in the bible that condemn or frown upon or liken to evil alcohol. I had a whole list of them at one point and I wish I still had it here as it took me a while to collect. I no longer have my notes no more.

However since modern day Christians don't follow God's law and merely follow instinct/desires and believe they are saved, they would hardly care. Unless they were God fearing and took heed to these verses rather than lived like everyone else with the flow of the crowd.

In Islam alcohol is forbidden period, making it, selling it, buying it, consuming it and even being in a crowd of it without being involved with it. In the qur'an its condemned in such a way that it says while there is some benefit for mankind in it, the harms outweigh any benefit. And in other places, alcohol is the root of many evils including adultery and violence, etc... Which in practice is very true. Most of my cop buddies will atest to it, most of the crimes involving domestic violence, hard violent crimes involve alcohol.

There's wisdom behind avoiding it. and with modern day science we know alcohol is literally a poison to the bind (liver, brain, etc...).

What little excitment some people get sooner or later they drown themselves and remain unhappy.

[The Scott]

There are over 70 verses in the bible that condemn or frown upon or liken to evil alcohol. I had a whole list of them at one point and I wish I still had it here as it took me a while to collect. I no longer have my notes no more.

However since modern day Christians don't follow God's law and merely follow instinct/desires and believe they are saved, they would hardly care. Unless they were God fearing and took heed to these verses rather than lived like everyone else with the flow of the crowd.

In Islam alcohol is forbidden period, making it, selling it, buying it, consuming it and even being in a crowd of it without being involved with it. In the qur'an its condemned in such a way that it says while there is some benefit for mankind in it, the harms outweigh any benefit. And in other places, alcohol is the root of many evils including adultery and violence, etc... Which in practice is very true. Most of my cop buddies will atest to it, most of the crimes involving domestic violence, hard violent crimes involve alcohol.

There's wisdom behind avoiding it. and with modern day science we know alcohol is literally a poison to the bind (liver, brain, etc...).

What little excitment some people get sooner or later they drown themselves and remain unhappy.

Blah, blah, blah...ad stupidum.  Why?  One word - "Bahrain".  Need more than one word?  Here's two more!  "Chai Boy".

As disgusting as any fellow pedophile crapolic priest.

[a_ahmed]

lol no idea what you're on about. All I know is my religion prohibits alcohol even if some non-practising muslims drink or do things that are forbidden in our religion. You on the other hand can blabla till the world ends and you believe you are saved even if you party it up and drink hard.

Have a nice day

[Tedim]

communion wine is mixed with hot water, so the wine is warm....Eastern/Russian Orthodox

[The Scott]

lol no idea what you're on about. All I know is my religion prohibits alcohol even if some non-practising muslims drink or do things that are forbidden in our religion. You on the other hand can blabla till the world ends and you believe you are saved even if you party it up and drink hard.

Have a nice day

Riiiight.  Mohammed was a pedophile.  Muslims get drunk.  They bugger goats when they can't get to a Chai Boy.  They think allah can't see them when they're surrounded by water or some such nonsense. I have never had alcohol nor do I party it up.

I despise that which is wrong and Islam is wrong.  So too is Catholicism. And LDS.  And a great many other man made shams.  The only people that don't like the truth are those who live a lie.  You are among them.

[a_ahmed]

^Jesus will save you? lol and lol #2 your words, speech and actions

Mathew 5:17-20 reads:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I have not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

You can cram all your hatred into a line or a giant paragraph, at the end of the day our religion prohibits all the vile things you speak of even if some muslims may actually engage in those things. All you can do is lie because you know all I've said is actually the truth but you reject it.

So have a nice day You gain nothing only lose out on true salvation and delude yourself that you are saved with your attitude and behaviour.

Anyways alcohol is bad and that's related to this thread.

[a_ahmed]

Intoxicants were forbidden in the Qur'an through several separate verses revealed at different times over a period of years.

At first, it was forbidden for Muslims to attend to prayers while intoxicated (4:43).

Then a later verse was revealed which said that alcohol contains some good and some evil, but the evil is greater than the good (2:219). This was the next step in turning people away from consumption of it.

Finally, "intoxicants and games of chance" were called "abominations of Satan's handiwork," intended to turn people away from God and forget about prayer, and Muslims were ordered to abstain (5:90-91).

Islam is the solution to humanity. America failed to ban alcohol because vile and corrupt hearts will not listen to stop something as bas alcohol. Islam came to purify the hearts of mankind and as a result when the hearts have true faith and conviction in the commandments of God, people abstained from Alcohol willingly.

Alcohol is one of the number one causes of death, fornication and domestic violence. Statistics speak for themselves.

“Surely, Satan is an enemy to you, so treat him as an enemy.  He only invites his followers that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire.” (Quran 35:6)

“Satan wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of God and from the prayer.  So, will you not then abstain?” (Quran 5:91)

“O you who believe!  Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, idolatry, and divining arrows are an abomination of Satan’s handiwork.  So avoid that so that you may be successful.” (Quran 5: 90)

[The Scott]

^Jesus will save you? lol and lol #2 your words, speech and actions

Mathew 5:17-20 reads:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I have not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

You can cram all your hatred into a line or a giant paragraph, at the end of the day our religion prohibits all the vile things you speak of even if some muslims may actually engage in those things. All you can do is lie because you know all I've said is actually the truth but you reject it.

So have a nice day You gain nothing only lose out on true salvation and delude yourself that you are saved with your attitude and behaviour.

Anyways alcohol is bad and that's related to this thread.

You are an idiot and that's not even taking into account you're Muslim.

[WillGrant]

You are an idiot and that's not even taking into account you're Muslim.

Why do you attack him for his believes ? 

Going on that momo is a pedo and the goat fucking etc , whats up with that ? and what does that have to
do with a_ahmed ?

I'm pretty sure if I was inclined to , I could find and bring up plenty of disgusting and immoral acts related
to your "savior" and church through out history, yet you cast stones as though your religion
is innocent ?

At the end of the day god and momo are both fairy tales put together as stories so gullible people
would follow (all about power and control).

As a christian arn't you meant to be accepting of others and not judge them because there beliefs differ
from your own ?
You come across as the opposite of what you preach , why is that ? 

[The Scott]

Why do you attack him for his believes ? 

Going on that momo is a pedo and the goat fucking etc , whats up with that ? and what does that have to
do with a_ahmed ?

I'm pretty sure if I was inclined to , I could find and bring up plenty of disgusting and immoral acts related
to your "savior" and church through out history, yet you cast stones as though your religion
is innocent ?

At the end of the day god and momo are both fairy tales put together as stories so gullible people
would follow (all about power and control).

As a christian arn't you meant to be accepting of others and not judge them because there beliefs differ
from your own ?
You come across as the opposite of what you preach , why is that ? 

The Christ is nothing like Mohammed and of that you can be certain.  Only an idiot would claim otherwise.  As to Muslim beliefs?  Islam means "submit".  You submit to it.   I am not a pushover in either the real world or here.  Why should I accept that which I know to be wrong.  These things you already know and yet you ask them in faux sincerity in order to appear to be something more.

Most people expect followers of the Christ to take their abuse, be it written, verbal or physical.  Not going to happen.  As an Atheist, aren't you supposed to not care and just mind your own business?  Yeah...Thought so.

I will turn the other cheek when I think it is appropriate.  Otherwise, expect to have it thrown right back at you.  Don't care for it?  So what.  And once again, you already knew the answers to your questions.

[WillGrant]

The Christ is nothing like Mohammed and of that you can be certain.  Only an idiot would claim otherwise.  As to Muslim beliefs?  Islam means "submit".  You submit to it.   I am not a pushover in either the real world or here.  Why should I accept that which I know to be wrong.  These things you already know and yet you ask them in faux sincerity in order to appear to be something more.

Most people expect followers of the Christ to take their abuse, be it written, verbal or physical.  Not going to happen.  As an Atheist, aren't you supposed to not care and just mind your own business?  Yeah...Thought so.

I will turn the other cheek when I think it is appropriate.  Otherwise, expect to have it thrown right back at you.  Don't care for it?  So what.  And once again, you already knew the answers to your questions.

It's a discussion forum so a point of view will be provided even if I am an atheist , that has nothing to do with your attitude toward someone
who has a different belief to you.

You sure don't come across as a Christian with your posts here , ignorant and arrogant spring to mind well before a man of Christ and that is based purely off your posts .

And lol at faux sincerity , I was asking why you come across as a complete asshole and the total opposite of what a christian is "meant" to be like , in no way is that submissive or dominant regarding
how you reply or express yourself and was a genuine question asking why ?

But carry on  

[Primemuscle]

The Christ is nothing like Mohammed and of that you can be certain.  Only an idiot would claim otherwise.  As to Muslim beliefs?  Islam means "submit".  You submit to it.   I am not a pushover in either the real world or here.  Why should I accept that which I know to be wrong.  These things you already know and yet you ask them in faux sincerity in order to appear to be something more.

Most people expect followers of the Christ to take their abuse, be it written, verbal or physical.  Not going to happen.  As an Atheist, aren't you supposed to not care and just mind your own business?  Yeah...Thought so.

I will turn the other cheek when I think it is appropriate.  Otherwise, expect to have it thrown right back at you.  Don't care for it?  So what.  And once again, you already knew the answers to your questions.

Is·lam  (s-läm, z-, släm, z-)
n.
1.  A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.

1.  (Islam) the religion of Muslims, having the Koran as its sacred scripture and teaching that there is only one God and that Mohammed is his prophet; Mohammedanism

[Donny]

Is·lam  (s-läm, z-, släm, z-)
n.
1.  A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.

1.  (Islam) the religion of Muslims, having the Koran as its sacred scripture and teaching that there is only one God and that Mohammed is his prophet; Mohammedanism

They can Keep it in their own Countries. We don´t want this trash in our Schools. Only one Flag flys in the UK. Their teachings are not for our Children and future Generations.

[The Scott]

It's a discussion forum so a point of view will be provided even if I am an atheist , that has nothing to do with your attitude toward someone
who has a different belief to you.

You sure don't come across as a Christian with your posts here , ignorant and arrogant spring to mind well before a man of Christ and that is based purely off your posts .

And lol at faux sincerity , I was asking why you come across as a complete asshole and the total opposite of what a christian is "meant" to be like , in no way is that submissive or dominant regarding
how you reply or express yourself and was a genuine question asking why ?

But carry on 

I lost my faith in mankind a long time ago.  I can express myself far better than most anyone here, you on the other hand read like a typical libtard, i.e., excepting of anything outside that which is good.  You just don't like the fact that I won't take crap from you or any other person that feels it's what I must do simply because of my faith in the Christ.   You want me to turn the other cheek?

Then slap me for His sake, not your own amusement. 

[The Scott]

Is·lam  (s-läm, z-, släm, z-)
n.
1.  A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God.

1.  (Islam) the religion of Muslims, having the Koran as its sacred scripture and teaching that there is only one God and that Mohammed is his prophet; Mohammedanism

Prime, don't think for even a moment to treat with me in this manner.  Dictionaries have been around since when you and I were young.  You are also aware are you not, that there is the literal definition of something and then there is the one defined by the reality of man?

Of course you are.   The reality of Islam, it's mantra, it's amoral zeitgeist is this - Submit or die.   

If you deny this, you deny the truth and not just the supposed truth of a faith (and unlike so many people I can easily accept that any religion could be wrong) but more than that you deny the agenda that is the twisted, misogynistic malaise of Islam.  To do so makes one the human equivalent of an ostrich with its head buried in a hole in the ground.

Except we all know where people put their heads. 

Just look at WillGrant  Yeah Will, I have friends that are Atheists and one of my dearest was one of the finest men I have ever had the pleasure of knowing in my short time on Earth.  You pale in comparison to him and what he taught me.

Be well, Prime.  You too Will. 

[The Scott]

They can Keep it in their own Countries. We don´t want this trash in our Schools. Only one Flag flys in the UK. Their teachings are not for our Children and future Generations.

Huzzah!  Donny keeping the great in Great Britain! 

Well said indeed, sir.

[Donny]

Huzzah!  Donny keeping the great in Great Britain! 

Well said indeed, sir.

What sickens me is now you´re called a Racist if you are Patriotic and want your Country back.

[The Scott]

What sickens me is now you´re called a Racist if you are Patriotic and want your Country back.

Libtards forget that we are one race - Human.  They seek to celebrate the few differences instead of reveling in the legion of similarities which we all share.  It's when we focus on what makes us the same that we find the strength and the will to better ourselves as a race. Skin color is not a difference.  Neither is the shape of a nose or the texture of one's hair.  They are variations on the theme, the palette of humanity.

Celebrating a difference be it real or supposed, often serves only to make us bitter rather than better.  Some of us are better at math, others at sports. Still others at building and creating and on and on.   These things cannot be denied and yet they do so and all in the name of "fairness".

Celebrate achievement.  Celebrate good.  Eschew evil.   And for the sake of what it is to be human, never turn the other cheek toward evil for evil's sake. 

[Primemuscle]

Prime, don't think for even a moment to treat with me in this manner.  Dictionaries have been around since when you and I were young.  You are also aware are you not, that there is the literal definition of something and then there is the one defined by the reality of man?

Of course you are.   The reality of Islam, it's mantra, it's amoral zeitgeist is this - Submit or die.    

If you deny this, you deny the truth and not just the supposed truth of a faith (and unlike so many people I can easily accept that any religion could be wrong) but more than that you deny the agenda that is the twisted, misogynistic malaise of Islam.  To do so makes one the human equivalent of an ostrich with its head buried in a hole in the ground.

Except we all know where people put their heads.  

Just look at WillGrant  Yeah Will, I have friends that are Atheists and one of my dearest was one of the finest men I have ever had the pleasure of knowing in my short time on Earth.  You pale in comparison to him and what he taught me.

Be well, Prime.  You too Will.  

Posting the dictionary definitions of Islam was not intended to in anyway be offensive. I know very little about the Koran or Islam, Mohammedanism. When it was mentioned that one must surrender to Islam, I was curious if there was any truth in this. Obviously by definition, there is although more specifically it says one surrenders to God and to his prophet, Muhammad. When you think about it, this isn't so different than Christians giving themselves to Jesus, who was also a prophet and believed to be the son of God.

I agree that people interpret religious writings and teachings in their own way, often to suit what they already believe. Within religions there are sects which often believe and practice the religion very differently then the original doctrine's intended. This is not always a bad thing, btw. As civilizations evolve and circumstances change, religions should adapt. Heck, people don't even speak the same languages they did when the Koran and the Bible were written. What we read in them today are someone's translations and probably interpretations colored by their personal beliefs. Often the disagreements we witness folks having over different religions and different sects within a religion are a result of these adaptions or interpretations. This has historically be then cause of wars.

I don't know that I am an atheist, but I take almost nothing on faith alone. The concept of God is very interesting to me, but I don't envision God as manlike which of course he would be if you believe he created us in his image. I think we make our own heaven and hell right here in this life and we sometimes move from one to the other.

I am not hoping to sell anyone my beliefs because what we believe is personal. No matter how good we think these ideas are, it is wrong to insinuate them on other people. Having said this, human nature seems to dictate otherwise. Most folks who believe they found a good thing or have something right want to share this with others, regardless of whether it is right for them.

You be well too.

[loco]

Way to hijack Man of Steel's thread!   

Anyway, back to the subject:

Psalm 104:13-15  New International Version (NIV)

13 He waters the mountains from his upper chambers;
    the land is satisfied by the fruit of his work.
14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
    and plants for people to cultivate—
    bringing forth food from the earth:
15 wine that gladdens human hearts,
    oil to make their faces shine,
    and bread that sustains their hearts.