Author Topic: Why won't she look at her choice?  (Read 24097 times)

Primemuscle

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #225 on: July 11, 2014, 01:11:05 PM »
.....and sorry but raising a child is harder than being pregnant and giving birth.   

How many parents die as a result of raising their children?

Kristin Marlowe was seven months pregnant and admitted for a small placental tear at Mercy Hospital in Springfield, Mo., when she began to complain of a headache. An hour later, she stopped breathing. Strong, healthy and only 20 years old — she died of a stroke.

The maternal death rate in the U.S. is creeping upward — to more than double what it was 25 years ago. Systems identifying deaths have improved, so how much the increase can be attributed to risk is uncertain. But experts agree maternal deaths are no longer declining, are underestimated, largely preventable and disproportionately affect certain groups.

The rate of severe complications during and after delivery have also doubled in the last decade, according to a 2012 federal study. Near-misses, where a woman nearly dies, increased by 27 percent.

That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death.

Straw Man

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #226 on: July 11, 2014, 01:26:57 PM »
How many parents die as a result of raising their children?

Kristin Marlowe was seven months pregnant and admitted for a small placental tear at Mercy Hospital in Springfield, Mo., when she began to complain of a headache. An hour later, she stopped breathing. Strong, healthy and only 20 years old — she died of a stroke.

The maternal death rate in the U.S. is creeping upward — to more than double what it was 25 years ago. Systems identifying deaths have improved, so how much the increase can be attributed to risk is uncertain. But experts agree maternal deaths are no longer declining, are underestimated, largely preventable and disproportionately affect certain groups.

The rate of severe complications during and after delivery have also doubled in the last decade, according to a 2012 federal study. Near-misses, where a woman nearly dies, increased by 27 percent.

That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death.


meh - that's nothing

don't you understand how much harder it is for a father to have to raise a child or how unfair that it is that he can't force a women to abort a child he doesn't want or how really unfair it is that he's forced to be financially responsible for his decision to have sex knowing full well that one of the consequences might be an unwanted child.   

those are all just so unfair for the man and much more difficult than death or major health issues that ONLY women have to deal with. 

Women get off easy.  All they have to do is deal with pregnancy, birth, post pregnancy health issues and after that they still have the exact same financial and other parenting burdens as men

Primemuscle

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #227 on: July 11, 2014, 01:38:56 PM »
meh - that's nothing

don't you understand how much harder it is for a father to have to raise a child or how unfair that it is that he can't force a women to abort a child he doesn't want or how really unfair it is that he's forced to be financially responsible for his decision to have sex knowing full well that one of the consequences might be an unwanted child.   

those are all just so unfair for the man and much more difficult than death or major health issues that ONLY women have to deal with. 

Women get off easy.  All they have to do is deal with pregnancy, birth, post pregnancy health issues and after that they still have the exact same financial and other parenting burdens as men

You're kidding, right?

bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #228 on: July 11, 2014, 01:42:06 PM »
How many parents die as a result of raising their children?

Kristin Marlowe was seven months pregnant and admitted for a small placental tear at Mercy Hospital in Springfield, Mo., when she began to complain of a headache. An hour later, she stopped breathing. Strong, healthy and only 20 years old — she died of a stroke.

The maternal death rate in the U.S. is creeping upward — to more than double what it was 25 years ago. Systems identifying deaths have improved, so how much the increase can be attributed to risk is uncertain. But experts agree maternal deaths are no longer declining, are underestimated, largely preventable and disproportionately affect certain groups.

The rate of severe complications during and after delivery have also doubled in the last decade, according to a 2012 federal study. Near-misses, where a woman nearly dies, increased by 27 percent.

That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death.


700 a year?  in all honesty that's nothing.  and just as many die from abortion procedure complications so your point is null.  people die.  it happens.  it shouldn't have any effect on the fact that the father should have a choice.  



Straw Man

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #229 on: July 11, 2014, 01:47:03 PM »

bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #230 on: July 11, 2014, 01:47:08 PM »
You're kidding, right?

no he's being facetious.  his point is that since women give birth they should be able to force a man to take care of a baby he doesn't want.  because he should have thought of that before he had unprotected sex.  because that's what adults do.  take care of their responsibilities.  

basically if MEN have unprotected sex, they should be ready to raise a child.

if WOMEN have unprotected sex, they can do whatever they feel like doing.  kill it.  keep it.  whatever.  all because they can get pregnant and men can't.  that precludes them from having to be responsible.

so Straw believes that life begins at conception if you're a man.  but life begins at birth if you're a woman.  his logic is flawless.

Straw Man

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #231 on: July 11, 2014, 01:52:43 PM »
700 a year?  in all honesty that's nothing.  and just as many die from abortion procedure complications so your point is null.  people die.  it happens.  it shouldn't have any effect on the fact that the father should have a choice.  

actually not even close

not sure if you knew your statement was false or were just making an assumption which turned out to be grossly off the mark

Quote
And while the decrease is most welcomed, the abortion industry likes to act as if women no longer died from abortion once it became legal. In fact, CDC reports that twelve more women died in 2008, the most recent year for which the CDC had data, and more than 400 women have died from legal abortion since 1973.
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/27/more-than-400-women-have-died-from-legal-abortions-since-1973/

great job avoiding the tens of thousands of woman who also suffer serious health consequences from pregnancy



Primemuscle

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #232 on: July 11, 2014, 01:56:47 PM »
700 a year?  in all honesty that's nothing.  and just as many die from abortion procedure complications so your point is null.  people die.  it happens.  it shouldn't have any effect on the fact that the father should have a choice.  

The father should have a choice to do what?


.... 52,000 pregnant women experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death. -Odd that you would think this is nothing, but then you are not a woman and you'll never be faced with these risks.

Straw Man

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #233 on: July 11, 2014, 01:59:03 PM »
no he's being facetious.  his point is that since women give birth they should be able to force a man to take care of a baby he doesn't want.  because he should have thought of that before he had unprotected sex.  because that's what adults do.  take care of their responsibilities.  

basically if MEN have unprotected sex, they should be ready to raise a child.

if WOMEN have unprotected sex, they can do whatever they feel like doing.  kill it.  keep it.  whatever.  all because they can get pregnant and men can't.  that precludes them from having to be responsible.

so Straw believes that life begins at conception if you're a man.  but life begins at birth if you're a woman.  his logic is flawless.


don't put words in my mouth, especially given your penchant for just pulling stuff out of your ass

As a responsible adult male I have no problem with the current  system where a woman can choose solely at her discretion whether to terminate a pregnancy or not (and within the legal timeframe)

I also fully accept any and all responsibilities for my actions and I certainly would not run around crying about how life is unfair


bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #234 on: July 11, 2014, 01:59:56 PM »
actually not even close

not sure if you knew your statement was false or were just making an assumption which turned out to be grossly off the mark
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/11/27/more-than-400-women-have-died-from-legal-abortions-since-1973/

great job avoiding the tens of thousands of woman who also suffer serious health consequences from pregnancy




LOL.  i'll give you a chance to actually read the article that you posted.  please just read the actual whole article.  

did you read this part?

While it is clear that there have been real declines in recent years, absolute numbers from the CDC should be taken with several shakers of salt. Since 1998, the CDC has not included any data from California, the nation’s most populated state, or New Hampshire, in its totals. And at least one other state has usually been missing from the data set (this year it’s two–Delaware, where there were 4,603 abortions performed in 2008, and Maryland, which has not reported since 2007.)

While the CDC relies on reports from state health departments, surveys done by the Guttmacher Institute found about 400,000 more abortions per year by contacting abortionists directly. Most recent figures from Guttmacher have estimated that there are just over 1.2 million abortions a year.

While missing several hundred thousand abortions, numbers from the CDC still roughly track those from Guttmacher, so trends and demographics are still very much worth considering.

bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #235 on: July 11, 2014, 02:01:48 PM »
The father should have a choice to do what?


.... 52,000 pregnant women experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death. -Odd that you would think this is nothing, but then you are not a woman and you'll never be faced with these risks.

right.  and if men can make a decision not to take care of a baby they don't want then more women will abort.  if more women abort, less will die from complications of giving birth.

bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #236 on: July 11, 2014, 02:03:20 PM »
don't put words in my mouth, especially given your penchant for just pulling stuff out of your ass
As a responsible adult male I have no problem with the current  system where a woman can choose solely at her discretion whether to terminate a pregnancy or not (and within the legal timeframe)

I also fully accept any and all responsibilities for my actions and I certainly would not run around crying about how life is unfair



LOL.  says the guy who doesn't read the articles he posts.  i'm outta here.  have to take my kid to the movies.  so glad my wife lets me be a part of it even though she gave birth.

Primemuscle

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #237 on: July 11, 2014, 02:18:55 PM »
right.  and if men can make a decision not to take care of a baby they don't want then more women will abort.  if more women abort, less will die from complications of giving birth.

So your main issue is that men should be able to choose to help support their offspring?

In a perfect world, people would only have children when they wanted them and had the means to raise them, both financially and emotionally. But the world isn't perfect, is it? Sometimes babies are born to parents who are practically children themselves. Often there is little hope these parents will ever be in a position to be responsible parents. Who suffers? To some degree the parents, but mostly it is their children.

It is a shame when abortion is used as contraception. It is a shame when children have children. It is shameful that some men and some women abandon their children, taking no responsibility for them at all. Often unwanted, uncared-for children become wards of the state or at least supported with public dollars. There is almost nothing good in these scenarios except those rare occasions when the children grow up to be happy successful adults despite their worthless parents. 

bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #238 on: July 11, 2014, 02:22:20 PM »
don't put words in my mouth, especially given your penchant for just pulling stuff out of your ass

As a responsible adult male I have no problem with the current  system where a woman can choose solely at her discretion whether to terminate a pregnancy or not (and within the legal timeframe)

I also fully accept any and all responsibilities for my actions and I certainly would not run around crying about how life is unfair


sorry I had to address this before I left.  so why don't you place the same responsibility on women to do the right thing and not run around crying about how unfair life is because they have to give birth?  shouldn't they act like responsible adult females?  


Straw Man

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #239 on: July 11, 2014, 02:24:00 PM »
LOL.  i'll give you a chance to actually read the article that you posted.  please just read the actual whole article.  

did you read this part?

While it is clear that there have been real declines in recent years, absolute numbers from the CDC should be taken with several shakers of salt. Since 1998, the CDC has not included any data from California, the nation’s most populated state, or New Hampshire, in its totals. And at least one other state has usually been missing from the data set (this year it’s two–Delaware, where there were 4,603 abortions performed in 2008, and Maryland, which has not reported since 2007.)

While the CDC relies on reports from state health departments, surveys done by the Guttmacher Institute found about 400,000 more abortions per year by contacting abortionists directly. Most recent figures from Guttmacher have estimated that there are just over 1.2 million abortions a year.

While missing several hundred thousand abortions, numbers from the CDC still roughly track those from Guttmacher, so trends and demographics are still very much worth considering.


where does it list the number of deaths due to abortion each year?


bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #240 on: July 11, 2014, 02:28:16 PM »
So your main issue is that men should be able to choose to help support their offspring?
In a perfect world, people would only have children when they wanted them and had the means to raise them, both financially and emotionally. But the world isn't perfect, is it? Sometimes babies are born to parents who are practically children themselves. Often there is little hope these parents will ever be in a position to be responsible parents. Who suffers? To some degree the parents, but mostly it is their children.

It is a shame when abortion is used as contraception. It is a shame when children have children. It is shameful that some men and some women abandon their children, taking no responsibility for them at all. Often unwanted, uncared-for children become wards of the state or at least supported with public dollars. There is almost nothing good in these scenarios except those rare occasions when the children grow up to be happy successful adults despite their worthless parents. 

if they are to share in the responsibility to raise the child with the woman they should be able to share in the decision to have the baby.

Straw Man

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #241 on: July 11, 2014, 02:30:32 PM »
sorry I had to address this before I left.  so why don't you place the same responsibility on women to do the right thing and not run around crying about how unfair life is because they have to give birth?  shouldn't they act like responsible adult females?  

I've never seen a woman (or heard of one) crying about how life is unfair because they "have to give birth"

maybe the reason is because they don't have to give birth

they have a choice as to whether to have an abortion or to give birth


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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #242 on: July 11, 2014, 02:32:11 PM »
I've never seen a woman (or heard of one) crying about how life is unfair because they "have to give birth"

maybe the reason is because they don't have to give birth

they have a choice as to whether to have an abortion or to give birth


I think they say something along the lines of "Why cant you have one?"
Its normally when they are just shitting one out.

Straw Man

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #243 on: July 11, 2014, 02:35:40 PM »
LOL.  i'll give you a chance to actually read the article that you posted.  please just read the actual whole article.  

did you read this part?

While it is clear that there have been real declines in recent years, absolute numbers from the CDC should be taken with several shakers of salt. Since 1998, the CDC has not included any data from California, the nation’s most populated state, or New Hampshire, in its totals. And at least one other state has usually been missing from the data set (this year it’s two–Delaware, where there were 4,603 abortions performed in 2008, and Maryland, which has not reported since 2007.)

While the CDC relies on reports from state health departments, surveys done by the Guttmacher Institute found about 400,000 more abortions per year by contacting abortionists directly. Most recent figures from Guttmacher have estimated that there are just over 1.2 million abortions a year.

While missing several hundred thousand abortions, numbers from the CDC still roughly track those from Guttmacher, so trends and demographics are still very much worth considering.


I'm still trying to figure out what you think the bold print that you posted means?

do you think because the data may on the total # of abortions may not be complete that we somehow don't have access to data from death certificates

The article starts with the headline of 400 deaths since 1973 based on data from 2009

Thats 400 total deaths in 36 years or about 11 deaths a year

You claim 700 die per year from abortions (actually you claimed just as many women die from abortion as from complication from pregnancy and that # was 700) yet you provided nothing to support this claim

so CDC says it's around 11 per year and it's likely a false narrative to claim if you don't know how many total abortions occurred each year that you don't know how many deaths from abortion occurred because we would still have the data from death certificates so we wouldn't necessarily need the total # of abortions performed

Feel free to post any link that supports your claim

Primemuscle

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #244 on: July 11, 2014, 02:50:05 PM »
if they are to share in the responsibility to raise the child with the woman they should be able to share in the decision to have the baby.

Are you saying that if a man tells a woman he is not interested in assuming any responsibility for their child, this should let him off the hook? Should the man also be able to dictate whether the woman has an abortion or not?


The following are several important statistics dealing with single mother hood and teen pregnancy:


•The UK has the highest number of unmarried teenage mothers in the world.


The United States has, worldwide, the second largest percentage of men and women who are sexually active before the age of 18 (73% of men, 63% of women).


22% of girls 15-18 who have had sexual intercourse will become pregnant.


About 13% of all US births are to teenage mothers, rising to 33% of all girls who have had less than 10-12 years of schooling.


•Single parent households grew form 5% of all US households in 1970, to 9% in 1990.


Out of the 5.7 million women who were due to receive child support in 1989, only 50% received full payment, while 25% received nothing.


•25% of all births in the US today are to unmarried mothers, and increase from 11% in 1970.


•Children of divorce make up the largest portion of one-parent children at 37% while children born to a parent who never married are 33%


The income of the poorest fifth of families with children and single mothers rose on an average by almost 14%, or about $1000, between 1993 and 1995, only to fall again by nearly 7% or about $580 per family between 1995 and 1997. This effects an average of 2 million families.

bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #245 on: July 11, 2014, 02:52:09 PM »
Are you saying that if a man tells a woman he is not interested in assuming any responsibility for their child, this should let him off the hook? Should the man also be able to dictate whether the woman has an abortion or not?

The following are several important statistics dealing with single mother hood and teen pregnancy:


•The UK has the highest number of unmarried teenage mothers in the world.


The United States has, worldwide, the second largest percentage of men and women who are sexually active before the age of 18 (73% of men, 63% of women).


22% of girls 15-18 who have had sexual intercourse will become pregnant.


About 13% of all US births are to teenage mothers, rising to 33% of all girls who have had less than 10-12 years of schooling.


•Single parent households grew form 5% of all US households in 1970, to 9% in 1990.


Out of the 5.7 million women who were due to receive child support in 1989, only 50% received full payment, while 25% received nothing.


•25% of all births in the US today are to unmarried mothers, and increase from 11% in 1970.


•Children of divorce make up the largest portion of one-parent children at 37% while children born to a parent who never married are 33%


The income of the poorest fifth of families with children and single mothers rose on an average by almost 14%, or about $1000, between 1993 and 1995, only to fall again by nearly 7% or about $580 per family between 1995 and 1997. This effects an average of 2 million families.


dude.  read my posts.  you have to read my posts

Primemuscle

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #246 on: July 11, 2014, 03:02:36 PM »
dude.  read my posts.  you have to read my posts

This post of yours pretty much makes your point,

agree.  my point is that if women KNEW before the baby was born if the father wanted to take care of it, she can make an informed choice about whether or not they can raise the child.  if the women KNOWS that the father will NOT take responsibility, (this includes him signing away all of his parental rights and liability), and she knows there is no hope of suing him for child support, she is more likely to make the choice to abort, saving herself and society a lot of money and reducing crime.

the only argument ANYONE could possibly have against this system is if they fundamentally do not agree with abortion and believe it to be murder and/or a dangerous procedure, which we've all learned that it is not.


Your post suggest the woman is more responsible for the pregnancy than the man is and she should therefore bear the burden of it, while all the fellow need to do is say no thanks to having a baby. I disagree with you that allowing this will result in a significant increase in abortions. More likely, the result will be an increase in women and children being on public assistance.

I don't like that there are welfare mothers who sometimes have many children seemingly just to get more money from government programs for them. It's a no win situation most of the time for all concerned. I suggest, these women who had the option of abortion sometimes choose not to abort a fetus because they have every intent of milking the system.

I don't foresee a time when women are forced to have abortions or required to have their tubes tied to avoid further pregnancies. I also don't foresee a time when child welfare programs will end, leaving the children to fend for themselves as sometimes happens in third world countries.

bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #247 on: July 11, 2014, 03:12:03 PM »
Are you saying that if a man tells a woman he is not interested in assuming any responsibility for their child, this should let him off the hook? Should the man also be able to dictate whether the woman has an abortion or not?

The following are several important statistics dealing with single mother hood and teen pregnancy:


•The UK has the highest number of unmarried teenage mothers in the world.


The United States has, worldwide, the second largest percentage of men and women who are sexually active before the age of 18 (73% of men, 63% of women).


22% of girls 15-18 who have had sexual intercourse will become pregnant.


About 13% of all US births are to teenage mothers, rising to 33% of all girls who have had less than 10-12 years of schooling.


•Single parent households grew form 5% of all US households in 1970, to 9% in 1990.


Out of the 5.7 million women who were due to receive child support in 1989, only 50% received full payment, while 25% received nothing.


•25% of all births in the US today are to unmarried mothers, and increase from 11% in 1970.


•Children of divorce make up the largest portion of one-parent children at 37% while children born to a parent who never married are 33%


The income of the poorest fifth of families with children and single mothers rose on an average by almost 14%, or about $1000, between 1993 and 1995, only to fall again by nearly 7% or about $580 per family between 1995 and 1997. This effects an average of 2 million families.


no I already covered that.  the man should be able to decide if he wants to support the baby.  if he doesn't want to support the baby he can sign away his rights and liability.  if she still wants to go ahead and have the baby, she has every right to.  he will not have to pay for it nor will he ever be allowed to be a part of the baby's life.  he signed away his rights to do that.  

no one can force anyone to have an abortion in my scenario.  also, no one can force anyone to pay for a baby they don't want in my scenario.  in my scenario no one can force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

if women knew that they could not sue a man for child support nor could they get a bigger welfare check they would be more prone to abort rather than to go ahead and give birth to a baby that's not wanted by a father.  but that's not how it works.  women have babies all the time in order to trap men, get more welfare, and the children are the ones who suffer.  

so all i'm in favor of is more abortions.  i'm with you guys.  how do you get more abortions?  don't make a woman having a baby a cash cow for her.

and you just showed some awful statistics on single parent children.  straw tell us all the time how awesome abortion is.  so my question is why would both of you want women to give birth to babies that are not wanted after the statistics you just showed me?  

my plan will cause thousands more abortions and all the great things that come along with it.  and you guys are against it.  do you just want to punish men for fucking chicks without rubbers?  because that's all you're accomplishing.


bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #248 on: July 11, 2014, 03:13:29 PM »
This post of yours pretty much makes your point,


and where does it say that a man can force a woman to have an abortion?  I may not respond to this one I gotta go.  kid is bitching. 

bears

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Re: Why won't she look at her choice?
« Reply #249 on: July 11, 2014, 03:18:30 PM »
I've never seen a woman (or heard of one) crying about how life is unfair because they "have to give birth"
maybe the reason is because they don't have to give birth

they have a choice as to whether to have an abortion or to give birth



are you being fucking serious?