Author Topic: Obama is clearly pussing out (Malaysian Airlines flight)  (Read 15897 times)

WalterWhite

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2014, 04:10:27 PM »
I regretted the Bush analogy soon as I typed it but my point was it is good to have someone who calls a spade a spade. Bush called a spade a club and invaded the club.

War with China or Russia is off the table for all parties, USA>Russia>China in military terms, but one nuke is enough to start chaos. That said, USA has been using sanctions against Russia which the EU can try but not enforce (we depend on Russian gas). USA disapproves of Russia's actions and here is the embodiment of their actions - separatists (ie yahoos) armed with military hardware accidentally blowing up a civilian airline. Nothing tragic, it was a direct result of Russia arming unaccountable rebels.

Sad thing is, the truth of what happened might never come out. Ukraine will blame Russia and say they found proof, Russia will blame Ukraine and say Ukraine investigation was biased.

PS Wiggs please use paragraphs.

There is likely proof already based on our ability to listen to just about everything.  Any communicative transmissions will be vetted one way or another but of course they will point fingers at each other without concrete proof on the table.  One way or another Russia is responsible and if Americans were killed our president should not remain silent.  Reagan smartly used the Korean airline incident to further vilify the iron curtain. Obama can do the exact same thing and lead a global shaming and further alienation of Putin and his minions.

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2014, 04:14:21 PM »
There is likely proof already based on our ability to listen to just about everything.  Any communicative transmissions will be vetted one way or another but of course they will point fingers at each other without concrete proof on the table.  One way or another Russia is responsible and if Americans were killed our president should not remain silent.  Reagan smartly used the Korean airline incident to further vilify the iron curtain. Obama can do the exact same thing and lead a global shaming of Putin and his minions.

This is what I'm getting at. OMR's last post deserves mentioning. Putin is a sly bastard but here is a perfect chance to exert pressure on him and mock his "plausible deniability" about arming separatists. 10000m high plane flying at 470 knots? You need advanced hardware to do that, not the shit "rebels" have. Couple that with removing stories from Russian media and you can bet your ass Russia regrets this and here is a chance to put a mirror up to their activities. Calling it a terrible tragedy gives them an out.

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2014, 04:17:47 PM »
OK I see now Biden is saying it was shot down.

WalterWhite

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2014, 04:21:26 PM »
This is what I'm getting at. OMR's last post deserves mentioning. Putin is a sly bastard but here is a perfect chance to exert pressure on him and mock his "plausible deniability" about arming separatists. 10000m high plane flying at 470 knots? You need advanced hardware to do that, not the shit "rebels" have. Couple that with removing stories from Russian media and you can bet your ass Russia regrets this and here is a chance to put a mirror up to their activities. Calling it a terrible tragedy gives them an out.

Agree fully and I can't say I'm surprised that potus is at a dem fund raiser even with the addition of what's going on in Israel. ::)


dr.chimps

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2014, 04:21:43 PM »
Granted, do I think that Obama should have a little more testicular fortitude and actually command respect across the world? Absolutely.

Do I think that he is confused and doesn't have a true foreign policy, which in turn makes us look foolish in our stance as a global power? Yes.

Do I think there is a perfect answer in how to properly deal with Russia? No. Putin is a bad mothefucker and I think that while we can beat the shit out of them in all out war, it won't be before a few of his nukes erase a few major US cities/states.

Russia is just too complicated. I think we would have more success in dealing with both Iran and North Korea, than we would towards Russia.

"1"
I'd use the word 'stifled.' Sometimes smart people over-complicate things and get hung up in wonk. Clinton? Huge example. Obama, with no real foreign policy experience, got rear-ended by realpolitik. No surprises, there.  

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2014, 04:24:26 PM »
I'd use the word 'stifled.' Sometimes smart people over-complicate things and get hung up in wonk. Clinton? Huge example. Obama, with no real foreign policy experience, got rear-ended by realpolitik. No surprises, there.  
[/quote

I think Obama saw how antagonised most traditional allies were by the US invasion of Iraq, had his story of opposing said war, and used that as a framework for his foreign policy. Don't offend others. He isn't quite waving white paper while alighting from a plane but I could see him doing it.

dr.chimps

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2014, 04:30:43 PM »
I'd use the word 'stifled.' Sometimes smart people over-complicate things and get hung up in wonk. Clinton? Huge example. Obama, with no real foreign policy experience, got rear-ended by realpolitik. No surprises, there.  
[/quote

I think Obama saw how antagonised most traditional allies were by the US invasion of Iraq, had his story of opposing said war, and used that as a framework for his foreign policy. Don't offend others. He isn't quite waving white paper while alighting from a plane but I could see him doing it.


Agree. If memory serves, his first call was to the Palestinian guy, so he tried to be the appeaser, the repairer of US relations abroad. Might have worked, but with an GOP Congress and his second-guessing (except for bin Laden, which was totally decisive) he was second-rate.  









Roger Bacon

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2014, 04:32:39 PM »
Why should Obama or the USA do anything about it?

What business is that of ours?

Besides, what money is there to gain for the US getting involved with this? If it's the middle east, at least we know that we can establish military bases strategically surrounding large oil reserves that we can then negotiate deals for.

If Russian and the Ukraine go at it civil war style, why should we risk nuclear war with Putin? What would the US gain out of it?

I stand on the fence, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I think the USA should stay out of matters around the world that does not concern them or the safety of their citizens. If we do get involved in stopping terrorism across the Ukraine and Russia, we also need to get into:

Africa and stop the 40,000+ deaths that are occurring every month within the Congo.
North Korea and disarm their Nukes
China to stop the child slave labor and communist regime still present in certain regions
Iran and have them disarm today, not in however long they desire
Detroit

"1"

Ukraine is strategically important geographically I believe. I think that's why our leaders are so hard-pressed to have regime change there.


Published in 1997:

The Eurasian Chessboard: Brzezinski Mapped Out “The Battle for Ukraine” in 1997

By Chris Ernesto
Global Research, March 16, 2014


It’s all about maintaining the US position as the world’s sole superpower

Why would the United States run the risk of siding with anti-Semitic, neo-Nazis in Ukraine?

One of the keys may be found by looking back at Zbigniew Brzezinski’s 1997 book, The Grand Chessboard in which he wrote, “Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.”

    “However, if Moscow regains control over Ukraine, with its 52 million people and major resources as well as access to the Black Sea, Russia automatically again regains the wherewithal to become a powerful imperial state, spanning Europe and Asia.”

The former national security advisor to Jimmy Carter from 1977 to 1981 and top foreign policy advisor to Barack Obama, Brzezinski wrote that US policy should be “unapologetic” in perpetuating “America’s own dominant position for at least a generation and preferably longer still.”

Brzezinski delved into the importance of little known Ukraine by explaining in his 1997 book, “Geopolitical pivots are the states whose importance is derived not from their power and motivation but rather from their sensitive location… which in some cases gives them a special role in either defining access to important areas or in denying resources to a significant player.”

“Ukraine, Azerbaijan, South Korea, Turkey and Iran play the role of critically important geopolitical pivots,” he wrote in The Grand Chessboard, a book viewed by many as a blueprint for US world domination.

Brzezinski wrote that Eurasia is “the chessboard on which the struggle for global primacy continues to be played,” and that “it is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges, capable of dominating Eurasia and thus also of challenging America.”

Understanding Brzezinski’s long-term view of Ukraine makes it easier to comprehend why the US has given $5 billion to Ukraine since 1991, and why today it is hyper-concerned about having Ukraine remain in its sphere of influence.

It may also help explain why in the past year the US and many of its media outlets have feverishly demonized Vladimir Putin.

By prominently highlighting the mistreatment of activist group Pussy Riot, incessantly condemning Russia’s regressive position on gay rights, and excessively focusing on substandard accommodations at the Sochi Olympic Games, the Obama administration has cleverly distracted the public from delving into US support of the ultra-nationalist, neo-Nazi factions of the Ukrainian opposition, and has made it palatable for Americans to accept the US narrative on Ukraine.


Interestingly enough, it was Brzezinski who first compared Putin to Hitler in a March 3 Washington Post Editorial. Hillary Clinton followed-up the next day with her comments comparing the two, followed by John McCain and Marco Rubio who on March 5 agreed with Clinton’s comments comparing Putin and Hitler. Apparently Brzezinski still continues to influence US political speak.

In his book, Brzezinski contends that “America stands supreme in the four decisive domains of global power: militarily… economically… technologically… and culturally.”

While this may have been accurate in 1997, it can be argued that today, other than militarily, the US no longer reigns supreme in these domains.

So late last year when Ukraine’s now-ousted president Viktor Yanukovych surprisingly canceled plans for Ukrainian integration into the European Union in favor of stronger ties with Russia, the US may have viewed Ukraine as slipping even further out of its reach.

At that point, with the pieces already in place, the US moved to support the ousting of Yanukovych, as evidenced by the leaked phone conversation between US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. When peaceful protests were not effective in unseating Yanukovych, the violence of the ultra-nationalist Svoboda party and Right Sector was embraced, if not supported by the west.

In today’s Ukraine, the US runs the risk of being affiliated with anti-Semitic neo-Nazis, a prospect it probably feels can be controlled via a friendly western media. But even if the risk is high, the US likely views it as necessary given the geopolitical importance of Ukraine, as Brzezinski mapped out in 1997.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/theme/us-nato-war-agenda

Roger Bacon

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2014, 04:35:19 PM »
It is so obvious separatists in Ukraine/Russian "volunteers" shot down the Malaysian Airlines flight. It is known that Russia recently gave separatists SAM with the capability to reach 15000m with a 45k range. Earlier there were news stories on Russian media re separatists shooting Ukrainian military airplane that were removed when it was learned it was a civilian airline.

Now Obama has called it a "terrible tragedy" after talking to Putin. I would be embarrassed if I was American. You are being walked on by Putin and laughed at. What a coward, he would have waved the Russians through in 1962 saying they were taking a vacation in Cuba.

Hi John McCain  :D

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2014, 04:37:30 PM »
Hi John McCain  :D

I'm pro steroids, not McCain. I also am not on the Indian bandwagon if that Spacey movie is factually accurate.

DanielPaul

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2014, 05:09:47 PM »
CHICAGO
OAKLAND
DETROIT
BALTIMORE
AFRICA
NORTH KOREA
Fuck the middle east and there oil, take ANWAR turn it into a co-operative privately ran yet publicly owned to deliver oil and gas to the American people at a low cost and any profits made should go to education and building a sound infrastructure that can ween us off fossil fuels and on renewable energy.  That is my 20 year plan. HTH

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2014, 05:14:13 PM »
CHICAGO
OAKLAND
DETROIT
BALTIMORE
AFRICA
NORTH KOREA
Fuck the middle east and there oil, take ANWAR turn it into a co-operative privately ran yet publicly owned to deliver oil and gas to the American people at a low cost and any profits made should go to education and building a sound infrastructure that can ween us off fossil fuels and on renewable energy.  That is my 20 year plan. HTH

USA had great success with fracking from my perspective. You lead the way and show it is not only possible but hugely viable and profitable. Ireland UK see this example. Result? F a gs protesting and government sat with thumbs up ass while Russia, Qatar et al denude us of any dignity for gas/oil.

dr.chimps

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2014, 05:20:02 PM »
USA had great success with fracking from my perspective. You lead the way and show it is not only possible but hugely viable and profitable. Ireland UK see this example. Result? F a gs protesting and government sat with thumbs up ass while Russia, Qatar et al denude us of any dignity for gas/oil.
Yes! Let's destroy watertables willy-nilly. Do have any sober, second-thought(s)?

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2014, 05:23:47 PM »
Yes! Let's destroy watertables willy-nilly. Do have any sober, second-thought(s)?

Water is a real problem in Ireland.... as is the temperature. Mild weather country of peace. We saw mistakes US made,we are failing to see benefits...we can learn from guinea pigs without any pitfalls of same climate.

dr.chimps

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2014, 05:28:48 PM »
Water is a real problem in Ireland.... as is the temperature. Mild weather country of peace. We saw mistakes US made,we are failing to see benefits...we can learn from guinea pigs without any pitfalls of same climate.
Fracking doesn't include any nuance. Sell somewhere else. 

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2014, 05:31:14 PM »
Yes! Let's destroy watertables willy-nilly. Do have any sober, second-thought(s)?

I'd also add that you live in a country with oil, gas and uranium with oil, gas and nuclear power plants, assuming you're American. I live in a country with minimal gas, basically no oil and no uranium with no power plants for domestic fuels. If there is a crisis in the middle east we hear there are three weeks reserve. Imagine being Ukranian and relying on Russian gas for your lights to turn on. Very few countries are net fuel producers and would be fucked in such circumstances.

dr.chimps

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2014, 05:46:42 PM »
I'd also add that you live in a country with oil, gas and uranium with oil, gas and nuclear power plants, assuming you're American. I live in a country with minimal gas, basically no oil and no uranium with no power plants for domestic fuels. If there is a crisis in the middle east we hear there are three weeks reserve. Imagine being Ukranian and relying on Russian gas for your lights to turn on. Very few countries are net fuel producers and would be fucked in such circumstances.
Your point? Destroy the environment rather than pay global market prices? good call.  Pretty sure Ireland has lately cornered the market on parochial economic thinking. Awesome results. Maybe, sit this one out?    :-\

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2014, 05:56:19 PM »
Your point? Destroy the environment rather than pay global market prices? good call.  Pretty sure Ireland has lately cornered the market on parochial economic thinking. Awesome results. Maybe, sit this one out?    :-\

My point was here. Yours was here. Point missed. My point was to have the capacity to exploit what resources we have when necessary so that we are not held at gunpoint by dictatorships like Russia for commodities. Furthermore you can't comprehend how catastrophic it would be for countries with limited natural resources to be cut off.

Water tables fall out of the equation. You go a week without electricity and tell me your give a shit some river is being polluted.

dr.chimps

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2014, 05:59:28 PM »
My point was here. Yours was here. Point missed. My point was to have the capacity to exploit what resources we have when necessary so that we are not held at gunpoint by dictatorships like Russia for commodities. Furthermore you can't comprehend how catastrophic it would be for countries with limited natural resources to be cut off.

Water tables fall out of the equation. You go a week without electricity and tell me your give a shit some river is being polluted.
Cool. Exploit away. History could always use another regrettable narrative.  :) 

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2014, 06:06:25 PM »
Cool. Exploit away. History could always use another regrettable narrative.  :) 

Ireland is prob best known for JFK and property crash. We are a tiny nation, we won't affect the climate, though we pay massive carbon taxes and fines if we exceed ideal emissions. We are close to an emergency. I recycle diligently and produce fuck all waste, but I know what I need and what fulfils that need.

Hopefully it is a storm in a teacup, but I had a bad feeling hearing this story.

oldtimer1

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2014, 06:10:54 PM »
Why should Obama or the USA do anything about it?

What business is that of ours?

Besides, what money is there to gain for the US getting involved with this? If it's the middle east, at least we know that we can establish military bases strategically surrounding large oil reserves that we can then negotiate deals for.

If Russian and the Ukraine go at it civil war style, why should we risk nuclear war with Putin? What would the US gain out of it?

I stand on the fence, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I think the USA should stay out of matters around the world that does not concern them or the safety of their citizens. If we do get involved in stopping terrorism across the Ukraine and Russia, we also need to get into:

Africa and stop the 40,000+ deaths that are occurring every month within the Congo.
North Korea and disarm their Nukes
China to stop the child slave labor and communist regime still present in certain regions
Iran and have them disarm today, not in however long they desire
Detroit

"1"

What oil deals have we negotiated by putting a military bases by a middle east oil fields?

We should have demanded every drop of oil out of Iraq but we didn't demand an ounce.  

I do agree with you that we have to stop being involved in others conflicts. We also shouldn't be the world's police men. We tried to pick a winner with Eqypt and got the Muslim Brotherhood in charge after the government  that was friendly with the US over thrown.  The Muslim Brother hood then went on a killing mission against Christian Egyptians. We provided arms to Libya rebels trying to pick a winner and those arms were suspected in Benghazi. Now we provided arms to Syrian rebels and those arms are showing up in Iraq. When both sides are no good we shouldn't be trying to pick a winner. Putin said in effect the same thing about Syria.

dr.chimps

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2014, 06:16:37 PM »
Ireland is prob best known for JFK and property crash. We are a tiny nation, we won't affect the climate, though we pay massive carbon taxes and fines if we exceed ideal emissions. We are close to an emergency. I recycle diligently and produce fuck all waste, but I know what I need and what fulfils that need.

Hopefully it is a storm in a teacup, but I had a bad feeling hearing this story.
Energy/fuel bills/ civil bond issue  are a zero sum game.   :-\

Lustral

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2014, 08:58:35 AM »
Looks like obama saw sense and took my posts on board.

BigRo

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Re: Obama is clearly pussing out
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2014, 09:49:09 AM »
Ireland is prob best known for JFK and property crash. We are a tiny nation, we won't affect the climate, though we pay massive carbon taxes and fines if we exceed ideal emissions. We are close to an emergency. I recycle diligently and produce fuck all waste, but I know what I need and what fulfils that need.

Hopefully it is a storm in a teacup, but I had a bad feeling hearing this story.

wine?  :D

BigRo

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