Michael Brown - Discuss the facts and the truth

[polychronopolous]

is there are a thing called "Proper Esclation of force"

I asked because a cop told me that regarding this other kid that just got killed named Ezell Ford by the cops the other day here

[TrueGrit]

I disagree.   I think the shoot was legal and the rioters should be imprisoned.

But I disagree about the police being able to change stories.  IMO, if a police report changes on something like "Why did we approach this kid", it's VERY DANGEROUS.

It's how dangerous trends get started.  It's how police stop people for RANDOM reasons then just change it to whatever they find.  It sets a dangerous precedent.

People act like I'm defending the kid that got shot or the rioters - I'm not.   I just greatly dislike any situation where police continually amend a report in response to public pressure.  "I stopped a jaywalker" to "I stopped a robber".   It could be any of us, with cops just randomly shaking us down then inventing a reason.  How many people a day "jaywalking" does this cop engage with?  

Exactly.


Unfortunately, if you try to make the point that the police must still act lawfully people assume you're defending this kid and a lot of people are quite pleased he got wasted. Also, understandably, they get irritated and alienated by the likes of self-aggrandising charlatans like Sharpton inserting themselves into the drama.

The fact remains that police can't use force that is excessive and must be disciplined if and when they do. Police must always be held to account. Every single time an officer fires his gun in the line of duty it needs to be evaluated and investigated - and it is. Changing stories is never a good sign, in any situation. They themselves always point to a suspect changing his story as an indication of guilt, so it shouldn't be different for them.

[240 is Back]

If the cop reaches the point where he legally decides to fire one round, he is legally able to fire 100 rounds - whatever it takes until the person is no longer a threat.   Cops get hated on for overkill, but if the person is still standing, still a threat, still swinging, yeah, empty that gun.  Wouldn't surprise me if the cop put 5 bullets into his own dashboard and 6 into the victim.

I haven't heard full story yet - was Brown inside or outside the car? 

I haven't heard any inconsistencies in the shoot itself.  It's just the changing of why he approached him - that bothers me.  The minute we say "I don't care why police stopped a person" then we give them permission to STOP US for no reason... then just make up a reason, change it when that one falls thru, etc.  Then cops start making up reasons for tickets, planting weed on people, etc etc.

Locally, we had a cop threatening people with "Do I smell weed on you?" to anyone videotaping an arrest/beating they were delivering.  It was a fake threat to scare them off and violate their rights.  Same way a cop told me when I was 18, "any more lip out of you and I'll write you a seat belt ticket" when I was 100% buckled in.  That'll come around one day. 

[Archer77]

Assistant medical examiner Shawn Parcells indicates that the wound which struck Michael Brown's forearm could have hit from behind or when his hands were raised

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2727568/Autopsy-reveals-Michael-Brown-shot-SIX-times-confrontation-police-officer.html

I doubt that considering every other bullet entry point.  He shouldnt have made such a speculative statement as it implies Brown was giving up and there is no evidence for that. His body in motion accounts for every single bullet in his body, particularly the grouping fired into his right arm. People are grasping at straws with this.

[Schnauzer]

CNN did a story standing in front of Officer Wilson's house (even showing the house number), so now everybody knows where his family lives

[240 is Back]

also, even though they aren't legally admissible...

You want transparency?  You want to settle down *some* of the crowd?
Give that cop a polygraph and post the results.

Did he attack you?  *YES*
Did you fear for your life?  *YES*
Did he surrender?  *NO*
Did you shoot him in back *NO*
Did you know he was a robber?  *NO*

Pass every question.  

[Archer77]

also, even though they aren't legally admissible...

You want transparency?  You want to settle down *some* of the crowd?
Give that cop a polygraph and post the results.

Did he attack you?  *YES*
Did you fear for your life?  *YES*
Did he surrender?  *NO*
Did you shoot him in back *NO*
Did you know he was a robber?  *NO*

Pass every question.  

Polygraphs are useless.  Besides, the conspiracy theorists wouldn't believe the results even if he passed every question

[Soul Crusher]

Why don't these thugs just get it?  Stop acting like a thug, stop robbing stores, stop playing the role of thuggie walking around in the afternoon w nothing to do and get a fng job, pull your pants up, present yourself better - and you wont get shot by the police.

[Schnauzer]

A friend of Darren Wilson's calling herself "Josie" called into a Missouri radio show with the version of events she claimed Wilson's wife told her two days after the shooting. Of course there is no way to verify her story, so take it for what it is.

   He pulled up ahead of them. And then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery. And, they gave a description. And, he’s looking at them and they got something in their hands and it looks like it could be what, you know those cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them. Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did. And, then he opened the car again. He tried to get out. He stands up.

And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and them Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off.

Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, “Freeze!” Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.”   
   

The audio is here: http://danaloeschradio.com/alleged-friend-of-officer-darren-wilson-offers-his-side/ 

[The Ugly]

did not know that. I assumed (my fault) that you shoot to injure.

Never. Center mass. Don't fire unless you intend to kill.

[240 is Back]

Polygraphs are useless.  Besides, the conspiracy theorists wouldn't believe the results even if he passed every question

To a point.  If it was me, and everything was legal, I'd ask for Alex Jones to pay for one lol.  I'd hire ten of the most respected polygraph teams in the country.  Surely they're bonded and all that.

At some point, when I pass poly #7 on national TV, and my story hasn't changed, the CTers begin to peel away more and more.

Right now, all we know is that it took a week for a polygraph and we have multiple stories of why the cop engaged the unarmed man in the street.  Shoot, yes, legal, but why change that little detail?  Covering their ass.

[The Ugly]

also, even though they aren't legally admissible...

You want transparency?  You want to settle down *some* of the crowd?
Give that cop a polygraph and post the results.

Did he attack you?  *YES*
Did you fear for your life?  *YES*
Did he surrender?  *NO*
Did you shoot him in back *NO*
Did you know he was a robber?  *NO*

Pass every question.  

This would solve nothing. Nor would a dashcam video vindicating the cop. This has nothing at all to do with reason, facts, and/or justice. It NEVER does.

[Archer77]

Why don't these thugs just get it?  Stop acting like a thug, stop robbing stores, stop playing the role of thuggie walking around in the afternoon w nothing to do and get a fng job, pull your pants up, present yourself better - and you wont get shot by the police.

Without the narrative of pervasive racism keeping them down, they have zero ability to advocate on their behalf.  The altermative is to take responsibility for their own actions and those of their community and that places them under tremendous scrutiny.  Its much easier to deflect.

[mr.turbo]

I doubt that considering every other bullet entry point.  He shouldnt have made such a speculative statement as it implies Brown was giving up and there is no evidence for that. His body in motion accounts for every single bullet in his body, particularly the grouping fired into his right arm. People are grasping at straws with this.

I suspect he was suggesting this possibility because of the multiple witnesses who said he was shot at while running away then turned around.

[Agnostic007]

Exactly.


Unfortunately, if you try to make the point that the police must still act lawfully people assume you're defending this kid and a lot of people are quite pleased he got wasted. Also, understandably, they get irritated and alienated by the likes of self-aggrandising charlatans like Sharpton inserting themselves into the drama.

The fact remains that police can't use force that is excessive and must be disciplined if and when they do. Police must always be held to account. Every single time an officer fires his gun in the line of duty it needs to be evaluated and investigated - and it is. Changing stories is never a good sign, in any situation. They themselves always point to a suspect changing his story as an indication of guilt, so it shouldn't be different for them.

Changing stories certainly isn't what is wanted. But if the police were out and out liars, they would have originally come up with the best story and just stuck with it. From experience having been involved in the circumstances surrounding police shootings there is more often than not, evolving information. The Chief is urgently wanting the facts that are available at the moment. The media is burning up the phones asking for info..Supervisors are trying to piece together what happened in a chaotic situation. The officer involved is sometimes being treated and upset and so it's not uncommon for the initial information to be inaccurate. I've heard quickly formed news conferences where I hear what the Chief is saying over the news and I know it's not accurate anymore but it's the information he had at the time and feels compelled to get it out. So when I see that a story has evolved I think "They are getting more accurate information" rather than "They are covering up".  In a perfect world, we shouldn't put out any information until all the facts are in and verified..but the public wouldn't stand for that and when that has been done in the past, the defense has gone public and painted such a warped version of what happened, that when we release our investigation results a month later, nobody cares, the case has already been tried in the media. So this is what we have... evolving information that some people are going to view as sinister.

And yes, every time an officer fires his/her weapon at another individual it should be scrutinized. 

[Archer77]

I suspect he was suggesting this possibility because of the multiple witnesses who said he was shot at while running away then turned around.

Witnesses who have been discredited and contradicted.  The main source being Browns friend whose testimony has been dismissed as untrue by both of the autopsies.   The last two shots entered his head from the front indicating he was in a forward position facing the officer

[The Ugly]

Without the narrative of pervasive racism keeping them down, they have zero ability to advocate on their behalf.  The altermative is to take responsibility for their own actions and those of their community and that places them under tremendous scrutiny.  Its much easier to deflect.

Imagine the reality gutkick that would be. Might not recover.

[240 is Back]

This would solve nothing. Nor would a dashcam video vindicating the cop. This has nothing at all to do with reason, facts, and/or justice. It NEVER does.

there are SOME people that could see a video of everything and would still complain.  They can go fck a duck.

But there are other people on the fence... all they see is a dead person in the road without a gun... they see numerous reasons (from the PD voice himself) telling us why the person was approached by police in the first place. 

Were they scared of profiling accusations?  I can see that.  "Oh, you just pick any random minority off the street and approach/accost them?  How many white people have you stopped for jaywalking this month?"

Maybe they just wanted to change it to avoid the accusation.  Maybe this cop has a record of choosing one particular style of jaywalker... So I can see their MOTIVE for changing that statement.  But I don't like it, not one bit.

[Archer77]

Imagine the reality gutkick that would be. Might not recover.

Its to deeply engrained.   Black culture in the United States is built around the premise.  Its basically a religion at this point.

[mr.turbo]

Witnesses who have been discredited and contradicted.  The main source being Browns friend whose testimony has been dismissed as untrue by both of the autopsies.   The last two shots entered his head from the front indicating he was in a forward position facing the officer

There's another autopsy report?

hmmm.....

[Archer77]

There's another autopsy report?

hmmm.....

Two have been performed and another to be conducted by the Feds.  The second was done at the request of a third party associated with the parents of Brown.

[El Diablo Blanco]

Two have been performed and another to be conducted by the Feds.  The second was done at the request of a third party associated with the parents of Brown.

Wonder if the feds ran autopsies on unarmed whites killed by blacks

[Archer77]

Wonder if the feds ran autopsies on unarmed whites killed by blacks

I would guess the answer is no.   

[Schnauzer]

This past weekend: 

7 DEAD, 29 INJURED IN CHICAGO WEEKEND SHOOTINGS  

Of course no riots or non-stop media coverage because it's Hebrews killing Hebrews.



http://abc7chicago.com/news/7-dead-29-injured-in-chicago-weekend-shootings/267982/  

[Archer77]

This past weekend. Of course no riots or non-stop media coverage because it's Hebrews killing Hebrews.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/7-dead-29-injured-in-chicago-weekend-shootings/267982/ 

It's about power and manipulation.   Blacks killing blacks can't be exploited in the same way as white on black.