Are todays pros finally willing to admit that drugs are a bigger part than what

[Disgusted]

Drug testing is very expensive and cost thousands of dollars.  Even with all of that, there are still ways to get away with it.  Read some of my article in my "Keeping it Real Newsletter"

Vince, you know what I hate more then self appointed guru's? You pretending that you're one. 

[bigdumbbell]

first we have to define
what is a drug and
what is nutrition

[bic_staedtler]

If you want a recipe for a pro I guess it would go something like, consistant training nutrition, and drugs. Key word being CONSISTANT.  Then you gotta have decent genetics.  What is meant by genetics?  Well, in terms of bodybuilding it means the ability to build and hold onto muscle, response to "drugs", asthetics, and then conditioning, (some people bodies will only get so dry in terms of conditioning ie: Melvin Anthony).  It's simple but that's it. 
Many of us don't have the consistancy part down that's why when it comes to the elite pros it's their constancy ie: Ronnie, Jay and Dorian that sets these guys apart from us normal folk........in addition to their genetics of course.
240 read the latest edition of MD, you start drug testing shows, you get just average looking guys on stage and I myself will not pay to see something average.  Neither will about 75% of the audience.   An unfortunate catch 22

....read the bolded part...THAT'S the problem.  What makes you think that these are 'average' looking guys?....it's relative. 

People say they don't want to pay money to see a Mr Olympia contest if a some jacked up dude in their local gym is BIGGER....

But now, we get the opportunity to REDEFINE what constitutes the sport!  We can all agree that symmetry, proportion and size are what makes a Mr. O...but does size outweigh the former?...recently, YES.  We all know that this has been the case, where you get guys turning pro without genetics needed to win (but still remain competitive). 

The difference between some huge jacked dude in the gym and a PROPER Mr O is GENETICS...so what if you're huge, but have no sym or proportion?  THAT'S what we should be rewarding! 

But because of people not willing to pay for that ideal, the system gives the majortiy what they want....freaky size to sell tickets!  The judging reflects this, and we get what we get.

JUDGING STANDARDS need to be changed.  Shawn, drug testing will NOT work because you know that GH is undetectable, and insulin and a boatload of others are difficult as well.  So establishing "how much is too much" is just going to cause more headaches.  But you know more than most how difficult it is to change the judging standard!  Paying fans are what ultimately dictate the 'judging standard'...it's hard to reward something that 'nobody' is willing to see.

But I say, there IS a market of the REAL ideals of bodybuilding, it's just that the IFBB hasn't got the brains to figure it out.  Perhaps this new federation will do it. 

Drug testing would be nice, but it's such a hard battle, and even though I'd pay to watch purely natural bodybuilding, it seems the majority do NOT.  So you'll never get those big sponsors into bodybuilding period (Nike, others) and you don't get mainstream access.

I'm happy to say that I can accept the drugs to a degree, but ultimately the judging is what needs to be changed. 

Want to get rid of GH?...start REALLY marking down extended bellies! 

Want to get rid of diuretics?...start REALLY marking down extreme definition and shredded glutes!

CHANGE THE JUDGING STANDARD.....rant complete.

[Dos Equis]

Didn't they recently develop a test that can detect GH?

[philnq8]

How many of us on this and other boards like this one can say to ourselves "I really want to look like one of the top pros"? If you do then step up, invest the money, do the "gear", train and eat all day, next step Olympia.
I read numerous posts on the freakish size but it appears that as a whole most perfer the Shawn Ray, Darrem Charles type physique. Show a picture to someone that doesn't follow bodybuilding much and ask them which they perfer, the Ronnie/Jay physique or the Shawn Ray/Darrem Charles style physique and we all know the answer.
Pro BBer's will never make the money they  deserve until they really come out of the bigger at all costs mentality and do the thing that will put butts in the seats at the pro shows.  This sport will continue to be a fringe sport until the pros themselves step up and say enough is enough. I would wager that if given a choice 95% of the pros would perfer to not take the quanity of "gear" they have to take to stay competitive.

[Cavalier22]

Genetics and drugs are far and away ahead of everythign else on the realm of what makes a pro a pro.  Of course by genetics I also mean response to AAS. 

 Is training and dieting hard?  Of course, but not too hard.  Many people out there bust there ass to the piont of overtraining and eat like its a science and still work a full time job.  Someone in this position with average genetics would still be barely in better shape than someone with great genetics who doesnt do shit.  Its just the way it is. 

[MassInMass]

I think that gear plays a bigger part than people think; unfortunately the pros are the only ones to know this for fact, and, not being critical of them, but we will never know the truth...As far as genetics go...I'm sure that there are some guys in the NFL right now that, it they gave up football, trained and ate and did gear like it was thier job, would beat Coleman. They just chose to go down a different path. Too bad there is not some type of software out there that can run " what if" scenarios and give you an idea of what you would look like under certain conditions. Something similiar to what a plastic surgeon would use during a consultation.

[SteelePegasus]

I think that gear plays a bigger part than people think; unfortunately the pros are the only ones to know this for fact, and, not being critical of them, but we will never know the truth...As far as genetics go...I'm sure that there are some guys in the NFL right now that, it they gave up football, trained and ate and did gear like it was thier job, would beat Coleman. They just chose to go down a different path. Too bad there is not some type of software out there that can run " what if" scenarios and give you an idea of what you would look like under certain conditions. Something similiar to what a plastic surgeon would use during a consultation.

Along the same lines, I was watching basketball and the announcer said that Shaq is 340 with 14% body fat.  He seems to have the type of frame that can support alot more weight. I would love to see what would have happen if he dieted, trained and used "gear".

I am sure that there are other guys that fall into that category.

[Thin Lizzy]

Drugs dont win contests but lack of Drug Testing certainly challenges ones "Line I wont Cross" school of thought. For some there is no line, for others there's a limit. That being said, with no Testing, the door is open to walk in or out regarding competition. If the Heat is to Hot in the Kitchen, get out. If you stay, you know the deal.
At the end of the day, I never cared what others took, oly what I was willing and Not Willing to do to be the best I can. When i felt I accomplished that, I left sans a Sandow but my health in tact and my accomplishments worthy of discussion.
Why would Pro's admit to Drugs and their role unless they felt they were being cheated because of the lack of Testing?
Everyone knows the deal, therefore, none of the Pro's talk about them. All the drugs in the world would not "Make" someone better than Ronnie, Dorian or Haney. Sure they have a percentage impact but please, not many people have the work ethic, dedication, genetics or the time to be half of what these men were.
We can blame drugs or point at others who use them, bottom line, until or unless the Testing resumes, we are all whistling in the wind..........

Shawn,

How far do you think you could've gotten in bodybuilding had you remained completely natural?

Thanks in advance for the response.

[240 is Back]

Shawn,
How far do you think you could've gotten in bodybuilding had you remained completely natural?
Thanks in advance for the response.

I wonder if Shawn had stayed natural all along, if he'd actually look BETTER today?

[Shawn Ray]

Hell, if I'd only played the Lottery I wonder if I would have won?
Probably would have had better chances winning that than the Mr. O!
Point is, we can wonder about things all we want but that wont get us anywhere except where we are now........wondering

[Dos Equis]

Along the same lines, I was watching basketball and the announcer said that Shaq is 340 with 14% body fat.  He seems to have the type of frame that can support alot more weight. I would love to see what would have happen if he dieted, trained and used "gear".
I am sure that there are other guys that fall into that category.

I've heard commentators say the same thing about Shaq.  (They get the information from him.)  If Shaq is 340 then I'm 7'6".  He is closer to 400 than 300.  He was around 360+ in his last season with LA.  He's in terrible shape now.  I would be very surprised if his body fat is less than 20%.   

[Sculpter]

I feel it's being pretty unrealistic for the person that trains at a gym to say they want to look like the pros that they see in the magazines.People have to start realising that the pros in the magazines & on the contest stages don't have that totally ripped vascular look year round.To say they want to achieve the look of the old time bb'ers such as Reeves would be a more realistic goal for the avg. lifter imo.Of course that attitude changes if the gear use comes into play w/the persons training & their genetic capability to put on size.Again however, even the top pros don't look that great year round.

[Stavios]

I wonder if Shawn had stayed natural all along, if he'd actually look BETTER today?

Why are you dissing shawn's shape. He is still big, not really cut but I think he still looks good.

[dmorgan41178]

Shawn,
I hear what you are saying, but I must say that discussing or testing seroids and BB is retarded. Lets face it, you used somethings I am sure. Perhaps not at the level of others but you did. I have always been impressed with your physique and look. Watched your countdown video and was more impressed with your demeanor and intelligence, which is why I couldnt understand that you would be advocating testing in a sport that literally hinges on some use of performance enhancing drugs. I am not natural if that is something anyone could be, and I firmly believe that drugs are a smaller portion of winning than say genetics which you and Flex rocked. someone mentioned ones responses to the aas. there are things i have taken and maybe got strong but no size and a friend takes and blow the freak up. and presentation on stage.
hell how many people are preparing right now for team U and used in the past to creat more muscularity or whatever and may have been "clean" for two years and pass the test. how many are hitting the stage and using growth?
its all bullshit. no to steroids that have minimal side effects and consequences in comparison to say alcohol, but alcohol has no positives. put the aas in the store and let people push. the olympics let you wear a special swimsuit that reduces friction or resistance in the water, is that natural?
the whole natural and not argument is for morons.
sorry didnt mean to get lost in my own bullshit.

Drugs dont win contests but lack of Drug Testing certainly challenges ones "Line I wont Cross" school of thought. For some there is no line, for others there's a limit. That being said, with no Testing, the door is open to walk in or out regarding competition. If the Heat is to Hot in the Kitchen, get out. If you stay, you know the deal.
At the end of the day, I never cared what others took, oly what I was willing and Not Willing to do to be the best I can. When i felt I accomplished that, I left sans a Sandow but my health in tact and my accomplishments worthy of discussion.
Why would Pro's admit to Drugs and their role unless they felt they were being cheated because of the lack of Testing?
Everyone knows the deal, therefore, none of the Pro's talk about them. All the drugs in the world would not "Make" someone better than Ronnie, Dorian or Haney. Sure they have a percentage impact but please, not many people have the work ethic, dedication, genetics or the time to be half of what these men were.
We can blame drugs or point at others who use them, bottom line, until or unless the Testing resumes, we are all whistling in the wind..........

[Tigerman]

Drugs are more important than genetics!
Why I say so? Consider a competition with two guys that supposedly train and eat correctly. One with great genetics but natural, the other with poor genetics but juiced like a pro.
Who will win in your opinion, given the current judging system? 

[Rome]

They are bodybuilders, not male models....

Agreed. It's always  interesting to see how many men are concerned with the "looks" of Pro Bodybuilders. 

[rufjunk]

Agreed. It's always  interesting to see how many men are concerned with the "looks" of Pro Bodybuilders. 

Define the word model..

You have a preconceived notion of it that hinges on billboards and magazine ads. Anyone can be a model, Ronnie Coleman could be a model.

A bodybuilder is someone who lifts weights to transform their body, hence body building.

You can be a massive bodybuilder and a model.

I think the people who say "We want freaks and not model fags" are people who are insecure and choose to degrade society for valuing a body that's not as freaky as Markus Ruhl.

The point I'm making is that the sport isn't catering to the general public or the model look. It's always about bodybuilding, whether society's interest cater to the newest trend is not what bodybuilding is about, I think the style of physique shouldn't change. Certainly Ronnie Coleman being Mr. Olympia is indicative of bodybuildings seperance from society's ideal physique, you have nothing to worry about.

[BroadStreetBruiser]

Define the word model..
You have a preconceived notion of it that hinges on billboards and magazine ads. Anyone can be a model, Ronnie Coleman could be a model.
A bodybuilder is someone who lifts weights to transform their body, hence body building.
You can be a massive bodybuilder and a model.
I think the people who say "We want freaks and not model fags" are people who are insecure and choose to degrade society for valuing a body that's not as freaky as Markus Ruhl.
The point I'm making is that the sport isn't catering to the general public or the model look. It's always about bodybuilding, whether society's interest cater to the newest trend is not what bodybuilding is about, I think the style of physique shouldn't change. Certainly Ronnie Coleman being Mr. Olympia is indicative of bodybuildings seperance from society's ideal physique, you have nothing to worry about.

are you a moron or do you just play one on the internet?

[Bast000]

They like to make you believe they train harder than amatuers.

In actuality they just have better genetics, take large amounts of juice, however I'm sure their nutrition is better as well.

They desperately want recognition for working hard because they know what they do isn't special.

[drkaje]

A lot of you guys are full of shit.
Better genetics (responders) and where/how your body adds muscle or sheds fat are more important than steroids. True, steroids are a factor with pros but they (for the most part) have a level playing field because they're all using to some extent.
It always makes me laugh to read some of the guys say: "if I took that much juice, I'd be just as big as (insert name)". Unless you're at Curves working out, chances are that you'll run into someone using supplements. Do any of them look massive and perfectly proportioned? No. Deep down inside you know why, they're only doing what is comfortable and probably have a shitty diet.
Personally, I can't see a good reasion for recreational bodybuilders to go crazy with supplements. There are some legitimate health risks and I'd bet that people with severe Body Dysmorhphic Syndrome are likely to be addicted to them. Tons of guys are always "bridging" and a lot of guys are never off cycle.  And, and...... And, most of these guys never, ever compete!
Considering what they earn, it's a wonder why so many pros take the health risks too...

[gdavidx28]

Drugs are not going anywhere. They are big part of bodybuilding. If you wanna see naturals, take your shirt off and pose in front of the mirror.

[littleguns]

When it comes down to it there is not one natural pro on the IFBB circuit. What I do believe is that some respond better than others and can get away with taking a lesser amount than others and still come in with a fantastic physique.

Let's face it....we all have friends that use AAS, some that take large amounts and look no bigger than 240 while there are others that take light cycles but make tremendous gains and look awesome....

[arce377]

nice thread

[Clancy]

Nice thread.