Author Topic: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law  (Read 10923 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2014, 07:32:58 AM »
Strawman getting bent over as usual  ;D

as he loves it - just like Obama his lord high messiah and savior

loco

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2014, 08:25:01 AM »
Reliable in what sense? 

Cuz I find that a little hard to believe since I use a fingerprint scanner at my gym (a 24 Hour Fitness in Riverside County) to check in every day. 

How it works is I punch my phone number into one of about 4 keypads at the front counter and then hold my forefinger over the scanner next to the keypad for about 10 seconds.  When the light turns green, I enter the gym. 

BTW, I've had no issues using the fingerprint scanner for entry at either the Eastvale or Irvine 24 Fitness gyms either. 

I doubt anyone would be interested in fooling or tricking your gym's fingerprint scanner.  At best, you'll eventually start getting FAR (False acceptance rate) and FRR (False rejection rate) with the less expensive scanners.  At worst:

"But, as effective as they are, they certainly aren't infallible, and they do have major disadvantages. Optical scanners can't always distinguish between a picture of a finger and the finger itself, and capacitive scanners can sometimes be fooled by a mold of a person's finger. If somebody did gain access to an authorized user's prints, the person could trick the scanner. In a worst-case scenario, a criminal could even cut off somebody's finger to get past a scanner security system. Some scanners have additional pulse and heat sensors to verify that the finger is alive, rather than a mold or dismembered digit, but even these systems can be fooled by a gelatin print mold over a real finger. (This site explains various ways somebody might trick a scanner.)

To make these security systems more reliable, it's a good idea to combine the biometric analysis with a conventional means of identification, such as a password (in the same way an ATM requires a bank card and a PIN code).

The real problem with biometric security systems is the extent of the damage when somebody does manage to steal the identity information. If you lose your credit card or accidentally tell somebody your secret PIN number, you can always get a new card or change your code. But if somebody steals your fingerprints, you're pretty much out of luck for the rest of your life. You wouldn't be able to use your prints as a form of identification until you were absolutely sure all copies had been destroyed. There's no way to get new prints.

But even with this significant drawback, fingerprint scanners and biometric systems are an excellent means of identification. In the future, they'll most likely become an integral part of most peoples' everyday life, just like keys, ATM cards and passwords are today."
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/fingerprint-scanner5.htm

TheGrinch

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2014, 09:39:57 AM »

Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2014, 09:53:16 AM »
Your position is that the republican interest in the law somehow reflects its merit.  You wouldn't be focusing exclusively on the republicans motivation if you had a valid counter-argument against ID laws.  I care about examining the law, you care about the republicans and what they are doing.

Absolutely wrong

I'm not saying their interests in the law somehow reflects it's merit.  You're trying to create are argument to avoid simply addressing the topic

pay close attention because my point is simple to understand

I'm saying the intent when creating the laws was to suppress the vote

Republicans have admitted to this intent

We now have proof that the laws had the intended effect of suppressing the vote

again, if you want to dissect the argument ad consequentiam I will be glad to do so but you can't create that where it doesn't exist (go back and look at the diagram at one of those sites where you copied and pasted the text of your post)

If you want to avoid talking about the intent of the authors of these laws and the ultimate success of that intent then just say so




Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2014, 09:54:47 AM »
Strawman getting bent over as usual  ;D

save your gay fantasies for 333

Shockwave

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #105 on: October 13, 2014, 10:36:01 AM »
Absolutely wrong

I'm not saying their interests in the law somehow reflects it's merit.  You're trying to create are argument to avoid simply addressing the topic

pay close attention because my point is simple to understand

I'm saying the intent when creating the laws was to suppress the vote

Republicans have admitted to this intent

We now have proof that the laws had the intended effect of suppressing the vote

again, if you want to dissect the argument ad consequentiam I will be glad to do so but you can't create that where it doesn't exist (go back and look at the diagram at one of those sites where you copied and pasted the text of your post)

If you want to avoid talking about the intent of the authors of these laws and the ultimate success of that intent then just say so




Christ this is comical.

Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2014, 10:46:29 AM »
Christ this is comical.

I find it comical that Archer will go to absurd lengths to simply avoid addressing 2 facts

fact 1 - multiple Republicans are on the record stating the true intent these laws is to reduce voter turnout

fact 2 - the recent GAO report has concluded, whether intended or not, these laws have, in part, resulted in lower voter turnout and specifically among young voters and black voters.


Soul Crusher

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2014, 10:47:59 AM »
I find it comical that Archer will go to absurd lengths to simply avoid addressing 2 facts

fact 1 - multiple Republicans are on the record stating the true intent these laws is to reduce voter turnout

fact 2 - the recent GAO report has concluded, whether intended or not, these laws have, in part, resulted in lower voter turnout and specifically among young voters and black voters.



Yes - if you are illegal, voting in 2 states, not registered properly despite having months on end to fix your shit - then stay the fuck home.  Sorry asswipe not every illegal alien welfare thug deserves a vote

Archer77

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2014, 10:49:33 AM »
Absolutely wrong

I'm not saying their interests in the law somehow reflects it's merit.  You're trying to create are argument to avoid simply addressing the topic

pay close attention because my point is simple to understand

I'm saying the intent when creating the laws was to suppress the vote

Republicans have admitted to this intent

We now have proof that the laws had the intended effect of suppressing the vote

again, if you want to dissect the argument ad consequentiam I will be glad to do so but you can't create that where it doesn't exist (go back and look at the diagram at one of those sites where you copied and pasted the text of your post)

If you want to avoid talking about the intent of the authors of these laws and the ultimate success of that intent then just say so





I'm not trying to avoid anything. As I've told you numerous times my approach is to examine voter ID laws independently.  You keep bringing the republicans into the conversation, not I.  I made it clear the motivations of the republicans are not my concern and do not influence my opinions on the issue one bit.
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Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2014, 10:52:34 AM »
I'm not trying to avoid anything. As I've told you numerous times my approach is to examine voter ID laws independently.  You keep bringing the republicans into the conversation, not I.  I made it clear the motivations of the republicans are not my concern and do not influence my opinions on the issue one bit.

Republicans created the laws

Republicans stated their intent with the laws

We have a study showing the results of these laws which conform with Republicans intentions

If you prefer to ignore all of those salient facts and pretend they don't exist then that's fine with me

Archer77

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #110 on: October 13, 2014, 10:53:47 AM »
I find it comical that Archer will go to absurd lengths to simply avoid addressing 2 facts

fact 1 - multiple Republicans are on the record stating the true intent these laws is to reduce voter turnout

fact 2 - the recent GAO report has concluded, whether intended or not, these laws have, in part, resulted in lower voter turnout and specifically among young voters and black voters.



So what.  If such a problem exists its the fault of the young and black voters and their responsibility to rectify.  You can't drive a car without a license.  Does this mean to make it easier on people we should abolish drivers licenses?  No, it doesn't
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Archer77

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #111 on: October 13, 2014, 10:56:06 AM »
Republicans created the laws

Republicans stated their intent with the laws

We have a study showing the results of these laws which conform with Republicans intentions

If you prefer to ignore all of those salient facts and pretend they don't exist then that's fine with me

Again, so what.   You need to change your screen name.  You abuse logic.  I'm going to personally write Ron on this issue.


The argument from consequences or argumentum ad consequentiam if you insist on Latin, is a logical fallacy that the perceived outcomes of a proposition can determine its veracity. An example of arguing from adverse consequences might go like: belief in the theory of evolution leads to eugenics; therefore the theory of evolution is false. Conversely an argument from favourable consequences might go: belief in God leads to an increase in charitable giving; therefore God exists.
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Archer77

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #112 on: October 13, 2014, 11:01:07 AM »
The association fallacy is an informal version of the fallacious argument known as affirming the consequent. It consists of promoting an opinion or philosophy by recounting the values a specific person or a group that held that opinion or philosophy. The Richard Hammond quote above may have been made in jest, to appeal to the stupidity of such associations, but it is an extremely common, and often easy fallacy to make. It is, to an extent, a version of a non sequitur.
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Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #113 on: October 13, 2014, 11:01:20 AM »
So what.  If such a problem exists its the fault of the young and black voters and their responsibility to rectify.  You can't drive a car without a license.  Does this mean to make it easier on people we should abolish drivers licenses?  No, it doesn't

yet we also know that it can actually be quite a difficult for someone who is very poor, doesn't drive, doesn't have easy access to get the appropriate id, etc...

exactly as intended and hoped for by the creators of the law

and of course let's not forget that it's a law created to address a virtually non-existent problem of voter fraud

the impact on legitimate voters (more than 100k in Tennessee and Kansas) far outweigh the impact on fraudulent voters (which we've seen from many examples are very isolated incidents to the point of being statistically insignificant)

btw - glad yo finally just admitted you're fine with this.....as are many Republicans


Soul Crusher

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2014, 11:02:57 AM »
Oh please - you make it sound as if these same fools don't get an id to get welfare and food stamps and housing etc either. 

FNG fool

yet we also know that it can actually be quite a difficult for someone who is very poor, doesn't drive, doesn't have easy access to get the appropriate id, etc...

exactly as intended and hoped for by the creators of the law

and of course let's not forget that it's a law created to address a virtually non-existent problem of voter fraud

the impact on legitimate voters (more than 100k in Tennessee and Kansas) far outweigh the impact on fraudulent voters (which we've seen from many examples are very isolated incidents to the point of being statistically insignificant)

btw - glad yo finally just admitted you're fine with this.....as are many Republicans



Archer77

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2014, 11:03:03 AM »
yet we also know that it can actually be quite a difficult for someone who is very poor, doesn't drive, doesn't have easy access to get the appropriate id, etc...

exactly as intended and hoped for by the creators of the law

and of course let's not forget that it's a law created to address a virtually non-existent problem of voter fraud

the impact on legitimate voters (more than 100k in Tennessee and Kansas) far outweigh the impact on fraudulent voters (which we've seen from many examples are very isolated incidents to the point of being statistically insignificant)

btw - glad yo finally just admitted you're fine with this.....as are many Republicans



I provided possible solutions to the problems of access previously. This isn't personal.
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Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2014, 11:06:47 AM »
Again, so what.   You need to change your screen name. You abuse logic.  I'm going to personally write Ron on this issue.


The argument from consequences or argumentum ad consequentiam if you insist on Latin, is a logical fallacy that the perceived outcomes of a proposition can determine its veracity. An example of arguing from adverse consequences might go like: belief in the theory of evolution leads to eugenics; therefore the theory of evolution is false. Conversely an argument from favourable consequences might go: belief in God leads to an increase in charitable giving; therefore God exists.

LOL - yes please do contact Ron immediately

maybe he can point out this forum rule to you

Quote
Quoting Sources:  If your thread or post uses material created from another source, you must provide a link to the source.  Do not post full articles; only copy a portion of the source material with a link to read the rest.

If you want to keep insisting that I'm making an argumentum ad consequentiam then here is the formula from one of those sites where you plagiarized that text

The argument takes this form:

If A is true then it implies, causes, or creates, B.
B is, either subjectively or objectively, bad, immoral, or undesirable.
Therefore, A is false.

Some zoologists are saying the monkey is ancestor of the human. Then ask the scholar, "Sir, who is your grandfather? Is he a monkey? Then you are a descendant of a monkey." Will he like that? No way. It will turn him off. Would you like a monkey to be your grandfather?

So what is A, B in what you claim is my argumentum ad consequentiam

I've started out by saying that Republicans created voter ID laws with the intent of suppressing voter turn out


Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2014, 11:08:32 AM »
I provided possible solutions to the problems of access previously. This isn't personal.

I know and I asked you whether you really think that Republicans would be amenable to those solutions or even better ones (given the fact that nothing could get done without their support) and instead of having a dialogue you refused to even address the question


Soul Crusher

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2014, 11:09:54 AM »
There is no problem getting an id if you have two legs, feet, and breath.  Funny how stupid and worthless leftists feel their base of voters are. 

Fuck - a corpse in the cemetery has more ID on the tombstone than the average Democrat leftist voter

Archer77

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2014, 11:10:50 AM »
I know and I asked you whether you really think that Republicans would be amenable to those solutions or even better ones (given the fact that nothing could get done without their support) and instead of having a dialogue you refused to even address the question



What the republicans would or would not do is irrelevant.  Many things can be done without republican support and have.  Republicans don't support voter registration drives or transporting citizens from impoverished areas to and from the poles.  Both activities I have personally volunteered for many many times. Citizens don't need government support to help other citizens.
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Shockwave

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2014, 11:12:11 AM »
Republicans created the laws

Republicans stated their intent with the laws

We have a study showing the results of these laws which conform with Republicans intentions

If you prefer to ignore all of those salient facts and pretend they don't exist then that's fine with me
who fucking cares what thwir motivatiom was? It has nothing, nothing to do with the merits of said laws. The laws have plenty of their own merits separate from the republicans intentions (not even arguing the fact that there are plenty of republicans who dont view the laws with that intent anyway).

You act like since a couple repubs hope it suppress' votes, that somehow invalidates the laws merits, which is complete horseshit and a hollow argument.

Its literally no ones fault but their own if they cant spend the fckn 10 dollars to get an ID. There was a point when i got out of school that i applied and recieved temporary food stamps and cash assistance... and for those 3 months until i found a job, i lived as well as i did making 35k/yr when i started.

The 'i cant afford an ID' is fckn horseshit excuse and pure laziness, theyre just complaining. You have to have ID to even apply for benefits.

Youre just arguing because a couple shitheads said they want to suppress votes, whoopty fucking do. That in no way invalidates the many merits of making people prove their identity to vote.

Archer77

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2014, 11:13:42 AM »
who fucking cares what thwir motivatiom was? It has nothing, nothing to do with the merits of said laws. The laws have plenty of their own merits separate from the republicans intentions (not even arguing the fact that there are plenty of republicans who dont view the laws with that intent anyway).

You act like since a couple repubs hope it suppress' votes, that somehow invalidates the laws merits, which is complete horseshit and a hollow argument.

Its literally no ones fault but their own if they cant spend the fckn 10 dollars to get an ID. There was a point when i got out of school that i applied and recieved temporary food stamps and cash assistance... and for those 3 months until i found a job, i lived as well as i did making 35k/yr when i started.

The 'i cant afford an ID' is fckn horseshit excuse and pure laziness, theyre just complaining. You have to have ID to even apply for benefits.

Youre just arguing because a couple shitheads said they want to suppress votes, whoopty fucking do. That in no way invalidates the many merits of making people prove their identity to vote.


The kid is a logical fallacy machine. May I suggest we all demand a name change to fallacy man.
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Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2014, 11:15:15 AM »
What the republicans would or would not do is irrelevant.  Many things can be done without republican support and have.  Republicans don't support voter registration drives or transporting citizens from impoverished areas to and from the poles.  Both activities I have personally volunteered many many times. Citizens don't need government support to help other citizens.

sure, Democrats can make extra efforts in those states where these laws exist to try to mitigate the effect of voter suppression and I fully expect Republicans would launch counter efforts

How about we discuss whether there is a better solution such as a national voter registry,  a federal holiday for election day, free federal voter ID that works in all states, etc...

Any of these would ameliorate the effect that these laws have in suppressing the vote

Do you think Republican would be in favor of such measures?

Yes or no is fine

Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2014, 11:16:08 AM »
who fucking cares what thwir motivatiom was? It has nothing, nothing to do with the merits of said laws. The laws have plenty of their own merits separate from the republicans intentions (not even arguing the fact that there are plenty of republicans who dont view the laws with that intent anyway).

You act like since a couple repubs hope it suppress' votes, that somehow invalidates the laws merits, which is complete horseshit and a hollow argument.

Its literally no ones fault but their own if they cant spend the fckn 10 dollars to get an ID. There was a point when i got out of school that i applied and recieved temporary food stamps and cash assistance... and for those 3 months until i found a job, i lived as well as i did making 35k/yr when i started.

The 'i cant afford an ID' is fckn horseshit excuse and pure laziness, theyre just complaining. You have to have ID to even apply for benefits.

Youre just arguing because a couple shitheads said they want to suppress votes, whoopty fucking do. That in no way invalidates the many merits of making people prove their identity to vote.

if their intention is voter suppression then anyone who cares about the democratic process in this country should care


Straw Man

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Re: Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin's voter ID law
« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2014, 11:17:09 AM »

The kid is a logical fallacy machine. May I suggest we all demand a name change to fallacy man.

diagram it for us then

I've given you the formula straight from one of the locations where you plagiarized text for your post

simply prove your point