Author Topic: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.  (Read 25348 times)

Man of Steel

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #125 on: November 21, 2014, 07:51:54 AM »
Sam uses the word atheism for simplicity sake.  It is done so that he doesn't have to continually expand it by saying "What others mean when they refer to the word atheism".  It is ridiculous to think that one can avoid the word atheism while explaining why the word is unnecessary.

To fully understand his point it would be necessary to hear his complete view on the matter, rather than just a quote taken out of context.




No, no I grasp what he did. 

In my experience, atheists love defining terms in discussions.....except the term "atheism".  Sam takes it  a step further and thinks it shouldn't exist.

I agree and also don't care if it exists or not.....it changes absolutely nothing.

Radical Plato

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #126 on: November 21, 2014, 07:53:09 AM »
I am a 'born again Christian'. I try to live according to the bible, I attend church regularly and am a 'guest speaker' oh brother at several churches.

Still, I would not say 100% that God exists, or that I 'know' God exists.

If I claimed that, my faith, which is the only thing that justifies me in God's eyes, would be void.

I have faith He exists. I don't 'know'.

Hows them apples?
Well technically you don't have faith, because you have doubt, which makes you an agnostic.
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rocket

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #127 on: November 21, 2014, 07:54:06 AM »
No, no I grasp what he did.  

In my experience, atheists love defining terms in discussions.....except the term "atheism".  Sam takes it  a step further and thinks it shouldn't exist.

I agree and also don't care if it exists or not.....it changes absolutely nothing.

The term atheist should exist.  It should be a label for a person who does not believe in god and does not have a scientific way of thinking :)

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #128 on: November 21, 2014, 07:55:49 AM »
Well technically you don't have faith, because you have doubt, which makes you an agnostic.

there is no faith without doubt. 
c

mr.turbo

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #129 on: November 21, 2014, 07:56:56 AM »


 :D which religion is he referring to here?
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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #130 on: November 21, 2014, 07:57:18 AM »
It makes you not an atheist.  That's not an atheist.

End of story.

Not an atheist with a dash of agnosticism.  It is agnosticism.  They only differ by how you define your certainty and I was truly surprised when I discovered that, that anybody bothers to define themselves as an atheist.

Well, there ya go lol
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BigCyp

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #131 on: November 21, 2014, 07:57:41 AM »
Well technically you don't have faith, because you have doubt, which makes you an agnostic.

Read my post again.

There is not even 0.00001% doubt.

I have 100% faith.

But that does not equate to even 1% knowledge.

If I walk off a cliff, who's bottom is clouded by mist, but someone tells me there is a safety net 20ft down - then when I jump I have 100% faith in what that person is telling me.

However, I have 0% knowledge of the net, nor can I say I 'Know' it exists.

BigCyp

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #132 on: November 21, 2014, 07:59:10 AM »


 :D which religion is he referring to here?

Nice quote, and pretty convincing if you didn't know otherwise. However, it's interesting that he uses modern terms such as 'homophobic' to describe an entity who predates even the terms.

Man of Steel

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #133 on: November 21, 2014, 08:03:54 AM »
I am a 'born again Christian'. I try to live according to the bible, I attend church regularly and am a 'guest speaker' oh brother at several churches.

Still, I would not say 100% that God exists, or that I 'know' God exists.

If I claimed that, my faith, which is the only thing that justifies me in God's eyes, would be void.

I have faith He exists. I don't 'know'.

Hows them apples?

Few words from the choirboy  :). Earlier in my life I felt as you do know, but the Lord clearly revealed himself to me in my darkest, gravest hour.  

I don't think a lot of folks get that close to death personally and experience the spiritual darkness and light I did....left me a changed man.

Today, I absolutely know his reality because of his revelation in my life via the Holy Spirit.....just too many divine encounters/appointments to ignore.  

Your post helps me regain perspective that is needed.

mr.turbo

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #134 on: November 21, 2014, 08:05:45 AM »
I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/07/why-dont-i-criticize-israel/

 :o
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Radical Plato

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #135 on: November 21, 2014, 08:06:35 AM »
No, no I grasp what he did. 

In my experience, atheists love defining terms in discussions.....except the term "atheism".  Sam takes it  a step further and thinks it shouldn't exist.

I agree and also don't care if it exists or not.....it changes absolutely nothing.
Well it does change things.  Sam argues by attaching a label to something carries real liabilities, especially if the thing you are naming isn't really a thing at all. And atheism, he argues, is not a thing. It is not a philosophy, just as “non-racism” is not one. Atheism is not a worldview—and yet most people imagine it to be one and attack it as such.

He argues by consenting to be labelled an atheist, we are consenting to be viewed as a marginal interest group that lacks credibility.  It also has been used to keep our criticism of religion at arm’s length, and has allowed people to dismiss our arguments without meeting the burden of actually answering them. 

Rather than declare ourselves “atheists” in opposition to all religion, Sam suggests we should do nothing more than advocate reason and intellectual honesty—and where this advocacy causes us to collide with religion, as it inevitably will, we should observe that the points of impact are always with specific religious beliefs—not with religion in general.
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BigCyp

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #136 on: November 21, 2014, 08:07:48 AM »
I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/07/why-dont-i-criticize-israel/

 :o

He may not support biblical claims to Isreal's real estate, historical ones should suffice.


Radical Plato

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #137 on: November 21, 2014, 08:09:54 AM »
Nice quote, and pretty convincing if you didn't know otherwise. However, it's interesting that he uses modern terms such as 'homophobic' to describe an entity who predates even the terms.
You aren't too bright are you BigCyp?  The term may not have existed but the behavior the term defines did.  Did oxygen exist before there was a name for it?
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mr.turbo

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #138 on: November 21, 2014, 08:13:17 AM »
He may not support biblical claims to Isreal's real estate, historical ones should suffice.



this is a Sam Harris quote to be clear
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Radical Plato

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #139 on: November 21, 2014, 08:14:33 AM »
I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/07/why-dont-i-criticize-israel/

 :o
He thinks it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have any state organized around any religion, that includes Muslims claims over so called holy land.
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Man of Steel

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #140 on: November 21, 2014, 08:20:22 AM »
Well it does change things.  Sam argues by attaching a label to something carries real liabilities, especially if the thing you are naming isn't really a thing at all. And atheism, he argues, is not a thing. It is not a philosophy, just as “non-racism” is not one. Atheism is not a worldview—and yet most people imagine it to be one and attack it as such.

He argues by consenting to be labelled an atheist, we are consenting to be viewed as a marginal interest group that lacks credibility.  It also has been used to keep our criticism of religion at arm’s length, and has allowed people to dismiss our arguments without meeting the burden of actually answering them.  

Rather than declare ourselves “atheists” in opposition to all religion, Sam suggests we should do nothing more than advocate reason and intellectual honesty—and where this advocacy causes us to collide with religion, as it inevitably will, we should observe that the points of impact are always with specific religious beliefs—not with religion in general.

All good....remove the term "atheism" and all philosophical ties, worldviews, labels and promote reason and intellectual honesty while challenging specific religious beliefs.

However the mission statement,  position statement, aims and principles, shared objectives, creed, definition, terminology etc…..is structured is fine by me.   It’s a non-issue for me and I object to nothing.  State the "atheist" position however best represents you.

LOL cause in the end, as a theist I still represent belief in God and as an atheist you choose no belief in God.

BigCyp

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #141 on: November 21, 2014, 08:29:43 AM »
You aren't too bright are you BigCyp?  The term may not have existed but the behavior the term defines did.  Did oxygen exist before there was a name for it?

Really?  ::)

The point I was making, is that a lot of terminology used in these dicussions was birthed out of sociology itself. The label itself, although it describes a type of behaviour (or attempts to) is authoritative of the behaviour, but a human attempt to understand complex social transaction. Once a behaviour has a 'name', it does not become that name, rather it carries on as before. The only difference being it is easier to converse about. By this reasoning, if God decided that Homosexuality was not acceptable, it does not make him 'homophobic'. This term suggests that He is somehow wrong or not reaching the standards His own creation has set for him. That notion alone is laughable.

Radical Plato

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #142 on: November 21, 2014, 08:31:17 AM »
All good....remove the term "atheism" and all philosophical ties, worldviews, labels and promote reason and intellectual honesty while challenging specific religious beliefs.

However the mission statement,  position statement, aims and principles, shared objectives, creed, definition, terminology etc…..is structured is fine by me.   It’s a non-issue for me and I object to nothing.  State the "atheist" position however best represents you.

LOL cause in the end, as a theist I still represent belief in God and as an atheist you choose no belief in God.

To be clear, you also choose non belief in the myriad of known gods except for the one you think is the right one.
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Man of Steel

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2014, 08:34:47 AM »
Really?  ::)

The point I was making, is that a lot of terminology used in these dicussions was birthed out of sociology itself. The label itself, although it describes a type of behaviour (or attempts to) is authoritative of the behaviour, but a human attempt to understand complex social transaction. Once a behaviour has a 'name', it does not become that name, rather it carries on as before. The only difference being it is easier to converse about. By this reasoning, if God decided that Homosexuality was not acceptable, it does not make him 'homophobic'. This term suggests that He is somehow wrong or not reaching the standards His own creation has set for him. That notion alone is laughable.

well said

Radical Plato

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #144 on: November 21, 2014, 08:36:17 AM »
Really?  ::)

The point I was making, is that a lot of terminology used in these dicussions was birthed out of sociology itself. The label itself, although it describes a type of behaviour (or attempts to) is authoritative of the behaviour, but a human attempt to understand complex social transaction. Once a behaviour has a 'name', it does not become that name, rather it carries on as before. The only difference being it is easier to converse about. By this reasoning, if God decided that Homosexuality was not acceptable, it does not make him 'homophobic'. This term suggests that He is somehow wrong or not reaching the standards His own creation has set for him. That notion alone is laughable.
Of course GOD is wrong, simply because God contradicts himself all the time.  On one hand he expresses disapproval and contempt of homosexuals and on the other preaches that man should be tolerant and show love for all mankind.  Which is it?  The golden rule and judge not, lest you be judged or kill homosexuals.
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Man of Steel

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #145 on: November 21, 2014, 08:37:39 AM »
To be clear, you also choose non belief in the myriad of known gods except for the one you think is the right one.
correct with the only change being "think" to "know"

Radical Plato

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #146 on: November 21, 2014, 08:38:03 AM »
well said
I thought it was ridiculous. If God showed a prejudice against homosexuals, that by definition does indeed make him homophobic as the word is understood today.
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BigCyp

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #147 on: November 21, 2014, 08:38:08 AM »
Few words from the choirboy  :). Earlier in my life I felt as you do know, but the Lord clearly revealed himself to me in my darkest, gravest hour.  

I don't think a lot of folks get that close to death personally and experience the spiritual darkness and light I did....left me a changed man.

Today, I absolutely know his reality because of his revelation in my life via the Holy Spirit.....just too many divine encounters/appointments to ignore.  

Your post helps me regain perspective that is needed.

Don't get me wrong, in a conversation between brothers in Christ I would not put my point across the way I did in that post. To you, I say that yes I 'know' God is real because the Holy Spirit bears witness in me that I am a child of 'Abba' Father. I can't explain my 'knowledge' outside of that concept (apart from my experiential knowledge, through personally witnessing healings, demons being cast out, prayers being instantaneously answered and so on). To another believer it's a different conversation, as the Spirit Himself is spiritually discerned so to speak..

Radical Plato

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #148 on: November 21, 2014, 08:39:16 AM »
To be clear, you also choose non belief in the myriad of known gods except for the one you think is the right one.

correct with the only change being "think" to "know"
So, all the people who also 'know' they are correct in choosing a God other than yours are simply mistaken.  Why is that?
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Man of Steel

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Re: Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.
« Reply #149 on: November 21, 2014, 08:39:36 AM »
Don't get me wrong, in a conversation between brothers in Christ I would not put my point across the way I did in that post. To you, I say that yes I 'know' God is real because the Holy Spirit bears witness in me that I am a child of 'Abba' Father. I can't explain my 'knowledge' outside of that concept (apart from my experiential knowledge, through personally witnessing healings, demons being cast out, prayers being instantaneously answered and so on). To another believer it's a different conversation, as the Spirit Himself is spiritually discerned so to speak..

well said again