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Author Topic: Question for Bob: Was proposal to have MORE COMPARISONS accepted?  (Read 2622 times)
Milos_Sarcev
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« on: February 20, 2006, 12:16:18 PM »

Bob, I was just curious if proposal for MORE COMPARISONS in the IFBB pro shows was accepted? After last year's Olympia judging fiasco / I believe you mentioned / that starting with Ironman 2006 we would have MANDATORY number of comparisons that judges HAVE TO MAKE!

I even think that you said that top ten guys would eventually be ALWAYS compared - in each round and in every show! I think we need to address this problem - as obviously it happened AGAIN at the Ironman...

Here is what I posted on my board (with some pics to make my points more obvious...): http://milossarcev.com/board/index.php?topic=4251.0

After disgusting "judging manipulation" at the 2005 Mr. Olympia when very few comparisons were made by the judges - it was discused and (supposedly) agreed that starting with this season's Ironman competition judges would call MUCH MORE COMPARISONS. That would give the opportunity to athletes to "fight" for their placings and certainly insure better (FAIR?) judging.

Also - that would give the audience, photographers and anyone attending the show a chance TO SEE REAL COMPETITION (exactly what they all came to see in the first place)...

The most important "sporting aspect" of bodybuilding is exactly - direct comparisons between the athletes - and that is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT and THE MOST EXCITING part of the whole competition.

So why do we still have very few comparisons? No time for it?

Well, that excuse was used at the Mr. Olympia already...What was the problem this Saturday?

If there was the time for ALL 28 guys to do their individual set of mandatory poses (NOTE: if there was real issue with the time - competitors could be paired AS THAT WAS THE CASE IN THE PAST - so instead of 28 times seeing the same 8 poses we could have only 14...which would leave enough time for additional 14 direct comparisons among the guys!!!)

Bob Chic (athletes rep) was suggesting (after last year's Olympia judging fiasco) that (from now - on) top ten competitors HAVE TO BE compared among each other...

So, what happened yesterday?

For example: Kris Dim (4th place finisher) was NEVER compared with #1 (LEE) or #2 (DAVID) even though all three are very similar in structure, height, weight and even superb conditioning (all three were fabulous at the Ironman).

Any judge wants to tell me that: there was absolutely NO REASON to compare Lee and David with Kris?

Were those two athletes so superior to Kris that any comparison would just be plain waste of time? Did they consider that many of us (me included) came to see a show to find out how some athletes compare to others?

Anyway, I am posting few pics of Kris from the symmetry round where he was compared to Troy (who finished third - behind Lee and David).

While I am friends with both Kris and Troy (and Kris is also one of my athletes) I am only mentioning their names as this time they are representing good example for what I am trying to say...
Many times OTHER athletes are treated (read: IGNORED) the exact same way BY THE JUDGES...and I wish that more people (athletes) realize OUR PROBLEM.
Are we going to do something about it?
Also, when I am talking about the judging I want to express another of my concerns:
In the muscularity round (at the Ironman) head judge failed to call MOST MUSCULAR POSE in several occasions.
I could understand that everyone can make a mistake (it is human to make mistakes...but only *** makes the same mistakes over and over again).
But when head judge is REMINDED (YES - by me personally and some photographers /seating right in front of the judges/..as I was 5 feet away and shouting: "MOST MUSCULAR POSE. CALL THE MOST MUSCULAR POSE - IT IS A MANDATORY POSE"...etc, etc...) Head judge simply ignored me and refused to call RECENTLY ACCEPTED "EIGHT MANDATORY POSE" - THE MOST MUSCULAR!!!
Maybe they should clarify what MANDATORY really means...
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Stavios
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2006, 12:19:37 PM »

Milos,Why didn't you applied as the athlete rep instead of Bob? Undecided
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Milos_Sarcev
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2006, 12:20:53 PM »

FROM MY BOARD:

Gender:
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Milos Sarcev


    Re: Symmetry round controversy - AGAIN!!!
Reply #13 on: Today at 08:55:18 AM         
Quote from: Rene on Today at 05:53:30 AM
I think the athletes should do something about this. You are absolutely right Milos....it happened again.

Toney should have had a chance to be compared to. I'm sure there more comparisons that should have happened.

Either the athletes come together and confront the ifbb or put some serious pressure on Chick.


My response to Rene (my board member):

Yes Toney is another GREAT EXAMPLE...
How and why can physique like that be ignored by judges?
How many people believe that Toney AT LEAST deserved the chance to stand next to the very top guys?

I am not going to say anything else ...like he should have placed here or there...as this is NOT the point I am trying to make...
I wasn't even thinking about: if Kris should have placed ahead of Troy (I posted pics of those two - as obviously I OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS WORLD didn't have a chance to see Kris next to Lee and David)...or that Kris is better than either Lee or David.

My point is: KRIS WAS MORE THAN DESERVING OF COMPARISON WHICH HE DID NOT GET....
TONEY WAS MORE THAN DESERVING OF COMPARISON WHICH HE DID NOT GET...ETC, ETC, ETC

How long do we need to tolerate this?

Many athletes get so discouraged because they are treated by the judges this way - they simply stop competing...
They cannot come back time after time again and believing that "this time it is going to be different"...
I know that as a fact...Even Toney (speaking of him...and Toney - if you read this I would really ask you to respond by just giving us your feelings about it...) was so disappointed after the prejudging he was having very hard time accepting it...I don't want to say more - I hope Toney will.

The whole point is:

JUDGES - GIVE THE ATHLETES CHANCE TO COMPETE!
THAT'S THE ONLY THING WE ARE ASKING.

If someone is better - they will easily prove it...so top guys (being underdogs some time in their careers) would have no problem with it...They would NOT complain IF being compared extra couple of times...

All the others will feel VERY GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES even if they place dead last - IF ONLY THEY GET A CHANCE TO BE COMPARED...

Athletes in every sport MUST have the opportunity to fight for their placing...that's what competition is ALL ABOUT!
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2006, 01:44:14 PM »

www.MilosForAthletesRep. com

Just an idea!
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2006, 01:49:59 PM »


Nice 240! always on the prowel 4 new business!
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2006, 02:09:55 PM »

Nice 240! always on the prowel 4 new business!

I actually do have a website for sale that Pro Division Bodybuilding might be interested in Wink
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2006, 02:25:21 PM »

Your rant would certainly bare more weight if you _ for once _ made a case for an athlete that is not one of your clients.
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2006, 02:37:02 PM »

Milos it just takes one snow flake to fall to start what could be a avalanch !!!!
I agree with you about the comparison debacle, I was front row at the Olympia with a number of pros, and all made comment at how the hell could any decisions have been made with the number of comparisons that had been called !!
In saying that if I was a judge and was not happy with the call outs and needed more to make a proper placing of a athlete I would DEMAND it, in fact it would be my duty as a Judge to do so , in fact I have done just that when I have judged shows , so the judges themselfs need to be answerable to this delema, do you think useing the same judges over and over again see them becoming complacent !!
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2006, 06:23:42 PM »

Milos-

Yes, I did state that I believe we need more comparisons between athletes that are 2-3 spots away from each other. I know you and I have discussed this at length, and agree that change needs to be followed by action.

It wasn't presented as a request because the meeting and proposals I presented was BEFORE the Olympia, and thus the board meeting was as well.

I do have it listed for the next submissions, to be adopted into rule.

I think it's ridiculous that more comparisons can't be made in a timely manner...it's the least the judges can do when the athletees have busted their ass for MONTHS if only to get a fair shake at the judges table.

I will make mention of this to Jim Manion at the Arnold, to see if this can't be put into place sooner than waiting for the next B.O.G. meeting.
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2006, 06:38:06 PM »

i am appalled by these unprofessional judges.  now, THAT is something david henry should be writing about.  if these were real judges we'd have them impeached, trialed, convicted and thrown out of office or behind bars fast. 
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2006, 07:00:16 PM »

I think Milos would have a greater influence not being Athlete's Rep.
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2006, 10:40:42 PM »

msuatafa and freeman should have been top 4. but they were apparently placed out in the judges mind immediately...guess they remembered their Weider Principles.
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2006, 02:44:30 AM »

Milos-
Yes, I did state that I believe we need more comparisons between athletes that are 2-3 spots away from each other. I know you and I have discussed this at length, and agree that change needs to be followed by action.
It wasn't presented as a request because the meeting and proposals I presented was BEFORE the Olympia, and thus the board meeting was as well.
I do have it listed for the next submissions, to be adopted into rule.
I think it's ridiculous that more comparisons can't be made in a timely manner...it's the least the judges can do when the athletees have busted their ass for MONTHS if only to get a fair shake at the judges table.
I will make mention of this to Jim Manion at the Arnold, to see if this can't be put into place sooner than waiting for the next B.O.G. meeting.
Bob,
thank you for your response.
I've got few Emails from the people involved in the IFBB and they are all suggesting that THIS is NOT  matter that we should discuss publicly.
I dissagree.
We were all talking about OLYMPIA DEBACLE (fiasco...or whatever you want to call it) - and here we are - few months later THE SAME THING HAPPENED!
So, my question is: CAN WE INSURE THAT IN THE NEXT CONTEST - Arnold Classic (less than 2 weeks away) WE HAVE FAIR JUDGING WITH NUMEROUS COMPARISONS!
When will judges realize that EVERYONE that comes to the shows WANTS TO SEE GUYS ACTUALLY FIGHTING FOR THEIR PLACING?
Having Mr. Olympia contest and having Ronnie be contested by only Jay - is NOT MUCH OF THE CONTEST or title defence!
How many people would love to see Ronnie next to Gustavo (who beat him in the Challenge round), Gunter (who beat him in the GNC few years back), Victor, Dennis, Melvin, Branch, Darrem...
What is going to happen at the ASC?
The same?
I sure hope - NOT!
That's why I am speaking loudly - AGAIN.
Bob, you understand what it means for every athlete in that contest to be ready and prepared...just to be ignored by judges who believe that due to obvious reasons (like Ronnie should NOT be compared to anyone except Jay at the Olympia...) - we don't need too many comparisons...
Let's do something about it - before is too late.
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2006, 07:09:19 AM »

you better listen to maestro
if you know what the right thing to do is.

the rotten part about probodybuilding is the inept
judging structure.  no wonder it aint
a serious sport.  you got too many stoopid idiots
on little power trips.

i am a judge basher not a pro basher Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2006, 10:03:34 AM »

Bob,
thank you for your response.
I've got few Emails from the people involved in the IFBB and they are all suggesting that THIS is NOT  matter that we should discuss publicly.
I dissagree.
We were all talking about OLYMPIA DEBACLE (fiasco...or whatever you want to call it) - and here we are - few months later THE SAME THING HAPPENED!
So, my question is: CAN WE INSURE THAT IN THE NEXT CONTEST - Arnold Classic (less than 2 weeks away) WE HAVE FAIR JUDGING WITH NUMEROUS COMPARISONS!
When will judges realize that EVERYONE that comes to the shows WANTS TO SEE GUYS ACTUALLY FIGHTING FOR THEIR PLACING?
Having Mr. Olympia contest and having Ronnie be contested by only Jay - is NOT MUCH OF THE CONTEST or title defence!
How many people would love to see Ronnie next to Gustavo (who beat him in the Challenge round), Gunter (who beat him in the GNC few years back), Victor, Dennis, Melvin, Branch, Darrem...
What is going to happen at the ASC?
The same?
I sure hope - NOT!
That's why I am speaking loudly - AGAIN.
Bob, you understand what it means for every athlete in that contest to be ready and prepared...just to be ignored by judges who believe that due to obvious reasons (like Ronnie should NOT be compared to anyone except Jay at the Olympia...) - we don't need too many comparisons...
Let's do something about it - before is too late.
as long as this dumb criteria persist , Ronny will never be beaten on satge and jay always be second!!
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2006, 10:06:14 AM »

as long as this dumb criteria persist , Ronny will never be beaten on satge and jay always be second!!
lol  yeah they be rollin out ronnie in a wheel chair and one of his buttboy judges will still be goin off
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2006, 08:56:48 PM »

completely agree with milos on this one.
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2006, 11:05:35 PM »

Give em hell bob

Stand up for the athletes, they need ya
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2006, 08:20:17 AM »

The judges need to remember that not everyone goes to the prejudging. Even though they have already seen some comparisons, the people that paid to be there haven't. I don't understand why this needs to take the form of a proposal, it should just be implemented immediately. It wouldn't really drag the show out too much longer and would be something the fans would actually enjoy watching.

The way the judges run these things now, they could hardly be called contests. It is more like " here are the people who entered, here is your winner, give me my check I have a party to get to".



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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2006, 08:25:05 AM »

The judges need to remember that not everyone goes to the prejudging. Even though they have already seen some comparisons, the people that paid to be there haven't. I don't understand why this needs to take the form of a proposal, it should just be implemented immediately. It wouldn't really drag the show out too much longer and would be something the fans would actually enjoy watching.
The way the judges run these things now, they could hardly be called contests. It is more like " here are the people who entered, here is your winner, give me my check I have a party to get to".
and calling it prejudging implies an unlevel playing field.
oh and before you tell me prejudging is short for
preliminary judging i am also aware that bodybuilding is
a demonsration sport. 
i'd rather see more individual or group comparisons
than stripper routines, sophisticated burlesque,
pantomime, break dancing or gymnastics.
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« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2009, 04:55:26 PM »

Milos-

Yes, I did state that I believe we need more comparisons between athletes that are 2-3 spots away from each other. I know you and I have discussed this at length, and agree that change needs to be followed by action.

It wasn't presented as a request because the meeting and proposals I presented was BEFORE the Olympia, and thus the board meeting was as well.

I do have it listed for the next submissions, to be adopted into rule.

I think it's ridiculous that more comparisons can't be made in a timely manner...it's the least the judges can do when the athletees have busted their ass for MONTHS if only to get a fair shake at the judges table.

I will make mention of this to Jim Manion at the Arnold, to see if this can't be put into place sooner than waiting for the next B.O.G. meeting.
                                       Chickster always working for the MAN Undecided
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