Author Topic: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.  (Read 30810 times)

andreisdaman

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #250 on: December 30, 2014, 06:14:07 AM »
honestly, anyone who defends lowlifes like Brown must have serious ethical/moral problems....Good versus evil...who picks evil....?

Has nothing to do with Brown..it has to do with a guy getting killed because he was jaywalking

Parker

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #251 on: December 30, 2014, 07:12:14 AM »
Has nothing to do with Brown..it has to do with a guy getting killed because he was jaywalking
He didn't get killed for "jaywalking".
Let's not rewrite reality to fit what we want in our minds. Because it be done both ways.

andreisdaman

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #252 on: December 30, 2014, 07:20:14 AM »
He didn't get killed for "jaywalking".
Let's not rewrite reality to fit what we want in our minds. Because it be done both ways.

wait a sec....not re-writing reality..my contention has always been that no jaywalking event should escalate to where a the poliuce has tio kill a guy.......The officer told Brown to stop walking in the street...fine.....keep it moving...both of them.....why get into a confrontation over a VIOLATION...not a crime...or misdemeanor...A VIOLATION

Parker

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #253 on: December 30, 2014, 07:30:27 AM »
wait a sec....not re-writing reality..my contention has always been that no jaywalking event should escalate to where a the poliuce has tio kill a guy.......The officer told Brown to stop walking in the street...fine.....keep it moving...both of them.....why get into a confrontation over a VIOLATION...not a crime...or misdemeanor...A VIOLATION
When you say "get shot over jay walking", you are making a statement that the person was shot over said infraction. When it was a confrontation in the police vehicle. And we can even go beyond the jaywalking.
Every action has a reaction, every decision or choice we make creates a new reality.
Which leads us to questions like this: Had Michael Brown paid for his cigars like a normal person would have, would he still be alive? Would there have been a jaywalking infraction?

You see, what you really have done, is try and make a convoluted situation simple. When it is not simple.
And there are bigger issues at play than merely police brutality and black folk. But, people only want to see what they want to see. Dogmas are not good in this instance.

andreisdaman

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #254 on: December 30, 2014, 07:49:24 AM »
When you say "get shot over jay walking", you are making a statement that the person was shot over said infraction. When it was a confrontation in the police vehicle. And we can even go beyond the jaywalking.
Every action has a reaction, every decision or choice we make creates a new reality.
Which leads us to questions like this: Had Michael Brown paid for his cigars like a normal person would have, would he still be alive? Would there have been a jaywalking infraction?

You see, what you really have done, is try and make a convoluted situation simple. When it is not simple.
And there are bigger issues at play than merely police brutality and black folk. But, people only want to see what they want to see. Dogmas are not good in this instance.


well this is where opinions vary.....I don't know why you connect Brown stealing cigars with him walking in the street....just a few weeks a go an elderly Chinese man was Jaywalking in NY city....the police grabbed him and the man ended up seriously hurt after being beaten....my contention is how does an incident of Jaywalking escalate into an old man being beaten and winding up hospitalized???...give the guy a warning and keep it movign..if Im a cop no way will I let a small situation like that escalate into where i have to beat up a guy or take out my gun

same with brown.....why confront a guy over JAYWALKING

Parker

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #255 on: December 30, 2014, 08:18:38 AM »
well this is where opinions vary.....I don't know why you connect Brown stealing cigars with him walking in the street....just a few weeks a go an elderly Chinese man was Jaywalking in NY city....the police grabbed him and the man ended up seriously hurt after being beaten....my contention is how does an incident of Jaywalking escalate into an old man being beaten and winding up hospitalized???...give the guy a warning and keep it movign..if Im a cop no way will I let a small situation like that escalate into where i have to beat up a guy or take out my gun

same with brown.....why confront a guy over JAYWALKING
Let us not use another incident that we really don't know about?
Let's focus on one issue. And let's ask questions. Was Michael Brown and Dorian holding up traffic when walking? Did the officer ask both of them to hurry up? And what did the officer notice about Brown and Dorian (wearing, carrying etc.). And was there a verbal exchange?  Think for a second.
Small situations often times escalate to bigger situations when one or both parties want to assert themselves.

The reason why I connect the robbery (which he could be charged in many states for, the use of force to take something is called robbery or strong arm robbery in many states), is because that incident is what began the series of events, which ultimately led to him being shot dead.

In our society today, a very big issue is that personal responsibility is becoming extinct. Due to people's actions, they often times put themselves behind the 8 ball...

Jay walking is a minor offense, but it can and has created accidents and deaths, of the walker and of motorists.

andreisdaman

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #256 on: December 30, 2014, 08:22:31 AM »
Let us not use another incident that we really don't know about?
Let's focus on one issue. And let's ask questions. Was Michael Brown and Dorian holding up traffic when walking? Did the officer ask both of them to hurry up? And what did the officer notice about Brown and Dorian (wearing, carrying etc.). And was there a verbal exchange?  Think for a second.
Small situations often times escalate to bigger situations when one or both parties want to assert themselves.

The reason why I connect the robbery (which he could be charged in many states for, the use of force to take something is called robbery or strong arm robbery in many states), is because that incident is what began the series of events, which ultimately led to him being shot dead.

In our society today, a very big issue is that personal responsibility is becoming extinct. Due to people's actions, they often times put themselves behind the 8 ball...

Jay walking is a minor offense, but it can and has created accidents and deaths, of the walker and of motorists.


okay...fair enough

Disgusted

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #257 on: December 30, 2014, 09:36:36 AM »
Speculation on everyone's part as to what really happened. We are never really going to know how things really went down. I suspect that the officer is exaggerating and maybe even lying on some key points but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. I personally think that if the officer told the truth on every key point he would still be where he is at today.

andreisdaman

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #258 on: December 30, 2014, 10:45:20 AM »
Speculation on everyone's part as to what really happened. We are never really going to know how things really went down. I suspect that the officer is exaggerating and maybe even lying on some key points but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. I personally think that if the officer told the truth on every key point he would still be where he is at today.
 


which is my point,,,,why get involved in an altercation with an asshole and destroy your career OVER JAYWALKING...give the asshole a warning and keep it moving

Disgusted

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #259 on: December 30, 2014, 10:50:30 AM »

which is my point,,,,why get involved in an altercation with an asshole and destroy your career OVER JAYWALKING...give the asshole a warning and keep it moving


Did the officer know that there was a robbery and that Brown fit the description? I would think not since he stopped him for jay walking.

Parker

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #260 on: December 30, 2014, 10:53:15 AM »

which is my point,,,,why get involved in an altercation with an asshole and destroy your career OVER JAYWALKING...give the asshole a warning and keep it moving

Nobody knew what was going to happen. No officer is going to think "hey I might lose my job over this jaywalking incident "

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #261 on: December 30, 2014, 10:58:44 AM »
Nobody knew what was going to happen. No officer is going to think "hey I might lose my job over this jaywalking incident "

or that he might have to kill a man.

LittleJ

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #262 on: December 30, 2014, 11:15:13 AM »
Yes, police officers never lie ::)

Parker

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #263 on: December 30, 2014, 11:20:36 AM »
Yes, police officers never lie ::)
That's the thing. A society that expects perfection where there is none, is constantly let down.
We expect criminals to lie, but in some fanciful naive way,  not the police. And what happens when they do?
A very slippery slope, and we are sliding very fast.

The Ugly

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #264 on: December 30, 2014, 11:30:00 AM »
Yes, police officers never lie ::)

Either do "witnesses."

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #265 on: December 30, 2014, 11:56:39 AM »
That's the thing. A society that expects perfection where there is none, is constantly let down.
We expect criminals to lie, but in some fanciful naive way,  not the police. And what happens when they do?
A very slippery slope, and we are sliding very fast.

I feel that when it comes to police reports, we CAN expect them not to omit certain things.

"I did use my hands in a chokehold/submission, right before Garner died" might have been one of those details that SHOULD have been in the report lol.  Without the video, we never know he was choked - at all.

And the fact Officer wilson cannot tell 35 feet from 150 feet - even 4 months after the shooting?   Yes, I can reasonably expect them not to reduce the distance he chased an unarmed perp by 80%. 

I don't expect cops to be perfect in the moment.  I've even said, Wilson may have shot him out of anger not fear, and he shouoldn't go to prison cause he did get his bell rung.  BUT anytime a cop takes the time to fill out a report - and leaves out crucial details which could mean prison time - that's major fraud.  That is what makes people HATE cops.

The Ugly

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #266 on: December 30, 2014, 07:42:53 PM »
I feel that when it comes to police reports, we CAN expect them not to omit certain things.

"I did use my hands in a chokehold/submission, right before Garner died" might have been one of those details that SHOULD have been in the report lol.  Without the video, we never know he was choked - at all.

And the fact Officer wilson cannot tell 35 feet from 150 feet - even 4 months after the shooting?   Yes, I can reasonably expect them not to reduce the distance he chased an unarmed perp by 80%. 

I don't expect cops to be perfect in the moment.  I've even said, Wilson may have shot him out of anger not fear, and he shouoldn't go to prison cause he did get his bell rung.  BUT anytime a cop takes the time to fill out a report - and leaves out crucial details which could mean prison time - that's major fraud.  That is what makes people HATE cops.

Yes, HATE!

SF1900

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #267 on: December 30, 2014, 07:50:46 PM »
The issue is this:

People are horrible eyewitnesses. Forensic studies have shown this time and time again. They have done countless studies where they showed a handful of people the same exact scenario, then had each person recall it. Each person had their own version of the story. Youre never going to get an accurate representation of any scenario. People's senses deceive them, they process information through a very limited filter, which is often the workings of cognitive biases.

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts: Eyewitness testimony is fickle and, all too often, shockingly inaccurate

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

 IN 1984 KIRK BLOODSWORTH was convicted of the rape and murder of a nine-year-old girl and sentenced to the gas chamber—an outcome that rested largely on the testimony of five eyewitnesses. After Bloodsworth served nine years in prison, DNA testing proved him to be innocent. Such devastating mistakes by eyewitnesses are not rare, according to a report by the Innocence Project, an organization affiliated with the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University that uses DNA testing to exonerate those wrongfully convicted of crimes. Since the 1990s, when DNA testing was first introduced, Innocence Project researchers have reported that 73 percent of the 239 convictions overturned through DNA testing were based on eyewitness testimony. One third of these overturned cases rested on the testimony of two or more mistaken eyewitnesses. How could so many eyewitnesses be wrong?

Eyewitness identification typically involves selecting the alleged perpetrator from a police lineup, but it can also be based on police sketches and other methods. Soon after selecting a suspect, eyewitnesses are asked to make a formal statement confirming the ID and to try to recall any other details about events surrounding the crime. At the trial, which may be years later, eyewitnesses usually testify in court. Because individuals with certain psychological disorders, such as antisocial personality disorder and substance dependence, are at high risk for criminal involvement, they are also at heightened risk for false identifications by eyewitnesses.

Surveys show that most jurors place heavy weight on eyewitness testimony when deciding whether a suspect is guilty. But although eyewitness reports are sometimes accurate, jurors should not accept them uncritically because of the many factors that can bias such reports. For example, jurors tend to give more weight to the testimony of eyewitnesses who report that they are very sure about their identifications even though most studies indicate that highly confident eyewitnesses are generally only slightly more accurate—and sometimes no more so—than those who are less confident. In addition to educating jurors about the uncertainties surrounding eyewitness testimony, adhering to specific rules for the process of identifying suspects can make that testimony more accurate.

Reconstructing Memories
The uncritical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is “more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording.” Even questioning by a lawyer can alter the witness’s testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall.

Many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals; what is more, many of these subjects are certain that the memories are real. In one well-known study, Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subject’s parents shopped. After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. In two follow-up interviews, 25 percent still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies.

 Given the dangers of mistaken convictions based on faulty eyewitness estimony, how can we minimize such errors? The Innocence Project has proposed legislation to improve the accuracy of eyewitness IDs. These proposals include videotaping the identification procedure so that juries can determine if it was conducted properly, putting individuals in the lineup who resemble the witness’s description of the perpetrator, informing the viewer of the lineup that the perpetrator may or may not be in it, and ensuring that the person administering the lineup or other identification procedure does not know who the suspect is. Although only a few cities and states have adopted laws to improve the accuracy of eyewitness identifications, there seems to be a growing interest in doing so.

Expert Testimony
In addition, allowing experts on eyewitness identification to testify in court could educate juries and perhaps lead to more measured evaluation of the testimony. Most U.S. jurisdictions disallow such experts in courtrooms on the grounds that laboratory-based eyewitness research does not apply to the courtroom and that, in any case, its conclusions are mostly common sense and therefore not very enlightening. Yet psychologist Gary Wells of Iowa State University and his colleague Lisa Hasel have amassed considerable evidence showing that the experimental findings do apply to courtroom testimony and that they are often counterintuitive.

Science can and should inform ­judicial processes to improve the accuracy and assessment of eyewitness accounts. We are seeing some small steps in this direction, but our courts still have a long way to go to better ensure that innocent people are not punished because of flaws in this very influential type of evidence.

Error-Prone IDs
A number of factors can reduce the accuracy of eyewitness identifications. Here are some of them:

    Extreme witness stress at the crime scene or during the identification process.
    Presence of weapons at the crime (because they can intensify stress and distract witnesses).
    Use of a disguise by the perpetrator such as a mask or wig.
    A racial disparity between the witness and the suspect.
    Brief viewing times at the lineup or during other identification procedures.
    A lack of distinctive characteristics of the suspect such as tattoos or extreme height.
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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #268 on: December 30, 2014, 07:55:01 PM »
The issue is this:

People are horrible eyewitnesses. Forensic studies have shown this time and time again. They have done countless studies where they showed a handful of people the same exact scenario, then had each person recall it. Each person had their own version of the story. Youre never going to get an accurate representation of any scenario. People's senses deceive them, they process information through a very limited filter, which is often the workings of cognitive biases.

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts: Eyewitness testimony is fickle and, all too often, shockingly inaccurate

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

 IN 1984 KIRK BLOODSWORTH was convicted of the rape and murder of a nine-year-old girl and sentenced to the gas chamber—an outcome that rested largely on the testimony of five eyewitnesses. After Bloodsworth served nine years in prison, DNA testing proved him to be innocent. Such devastating mistakes by eyewitnesses are not rare, according to a report by the Innocence Project, an organization affiliated with the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University that uses DNA testing to exonerate those wrongfully convicted of crimes. Since the 1990s, when DNA testing was first introduced, Innocence Project researchers have reported that 73 percent of the 239 convictions overturned through DNA testing were based on eyewitness testimony. One third of these overturned cases rested on the testimony of two or more mistaken eyewitnesses. How could so many eyewitnesses be wrong?

Eyewitness identification typically involves selecting the alleged perpetrator from a police lineup, but it can also be based on police sketches and other methods. Soon after selecting a suspect, eyewitnesses are asked to make a formal statement confirming the ID and to try to recall any other details about events surrounding the crime. At the trial, which may be years later, eyewitnesses usually testify in court. Because individuals with certain psychological disorders, such as antisocial personality disorder and substance dependence, are at high risk for criminal involvement, they are also at heightened risk for false identifications by eyewitnesses.

Surveys show that most jurors place heavy weight on eyewitness testimony when deciding whether a suspect is guilty. But although eyewitness reports are sometimes accurate, jurors should not accept them uncritically because of the many factors that can bias such reports. For example, jurors tend to give more weight to the testimony of eyewitnesses who report that they are very sure about their identifications even though most studies indicate that highly confident eyewitnesses are generally only slightly more accurate—and sometimes no more so—than those who are less confident. In addition to educating jurors about the uncertainties surrounding eyewitness testimony, adhering to specific rules for the process of identifying suspects can make that testimony more accurate.

Reconstructing Memories
The uncritical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is “more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording.” Even questioning by a lawyer can alter the witness’s testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall.

Many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals; what is more, many of these subjects are certain that the memories are real. In one well-known study, Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subject’s parents shopped. After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. In two follow-up interviews, 25 percent still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies.

 Given the dangers of mistaken convictions based on faulty eyewitness estimony, how can we minimize such errors? The Innocence Project has proposed legislation to improve the accuracy of eyewitness IDs. These proposals include videotaping the identification procedure so that juries can determine if it was conducted properly, putting individuals in the lineup who resemble the witness’s description of the perpetrator, informing the viewer of the lineup that the perpetrator may or may not be in it, and ensuring that the person administering the lineup or other identification procedure does not know who the suspect is. Although only a few cities and states have adopted laws to improve the accuracy of eyewitness identifications, there seems to be a growing interest in doing so.

Expert Testimony
In addition, allowing experts on eyewitness identification to testify in court could educate juries and perhaps lead to more measured evaluation of the testimony. Most U.S. jurisdictions disallow such experts in courtrooms on the grounds that laboratory-based eyewitness research does not apply to the courtroom and that, in any case, its conclusions are mostly common sense and therefore not very enlightening. Yet psychologist Gary Wells of Iowa State University and his colleague Lisa Hasel have amassed considerable evidence showing that the experimental findings do apply to courtroom testimony and that they are often counterintuitive.

Science can and should inform ­judicial processes to improve the accuracy and assessment of eyewitness accounts. We are seeing some small steps in this direction, but our courts still have a long way to go to better ensure that innocent people are not punished because of flaws in this very influential type of evidence.

Error-Prone IDs
A number of factors can reduce the accuracy of eyewitness identifications. Here are some of them:

    Extreme witness stress at the crime scene or during the identification process.
    Presence of weapons at the crime (because they can intensify stress and distract witnesses).
    Use of a disguise by the perpetrator such as a mask or wig.
    A racial disparity between the witness and the suspect.
    Brief viewing times at the lineup or during other identification procedures.
    A lack of distinctive characteristics of the suspect such as tattoos or extreme height.


tl;dr. Sorry.

Bet it was good stuff, though.

SF1900

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #269 on: December 30, 2014, 07:57:51 PM »
tl;dr. Sorry.

Bet it was good stuff, though.

Basically, its saying that eyewitness accounts suck and are not reliable forms of evidence.

As stated, they have done studies where they have showed people the same scenario and each person then reported their own version. And the same people that saw the same scenario often differed on key points of the scenario. Its crazy how so many people can see the same thing, yet report different things.
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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #270 on: December 30, 2014, 08:08:54 PM »
Basically, its saying that eyewitness accounts suck and are not reliable forms of evidence.

As stated, they have done studies where they have showed people the same scenario and each person then reported their own version. And the same people that saw the same scenario often differed on key points of the scenario. Its crazy how so many people can see the same thing, yet report different things.

Certainly makes sense in Ferguson, where folks who didn't even see the event had conflicting reports.

blinky

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #271 on: December 30, 2014, 08:10:49 PM »
not reading everything.............. ............


i dont care
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SF1900

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #272 on: December 30, 2014, 08:15:38 PM »
Certainly makes sense in Ferguson, where folks who didn't even see the event had conflicting reports.

So, they were just making stuff up?  ??? ???
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blinky

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #273 on: December 30, 2014, 08:16:48 PM »
So, they were just making stuff up?  ??? ???

it happens all the time
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The Ugly

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Re: Cops smoked another black dude near St. Louis tonight.
« Reply #274 on: December 30, 2014, 08:19:48 PM »
So, they were just making stuff up?  ??? ???

Yes. Exactly why the D.A. dismissed dozens right off the bat; they never saw the f'n shooting. They parroted the idiotic 'Hands up' bullshit, yet weren't even there. Read the Grand Jury report.