Black Brunch....hahhah have you guys heard about these retards yet?

[OzmO]

So, this is a topic that has a lot of information and a giant post could easily take up an entire page. Obviously, I welcome discourse and if you are really interested in examining a viewpoint you haven't considered, then this can just unfold conversationally, as opposed to a giant information dump. I have posted a lot of this stuff before.

First things first, poverty rates and crime rates are inextricably linked. That's something I've never denied on here. And the poverty rate among blacks is much higher than for the general population. However, people take these facts and distort them into exaggerations that they take for granted as fact. Even with the higher rates of crime and poverty, black=/= criminal, black =/= poor.  

* Far and away, most black men who are incarcerated are behind bars on a drug charge. Drug incarceration rates and sentences are ridiculous across races. Since 1985, thanks to the war on drugs incarceration levels for drug offenders have swelled from 41,000 to over half a million. Arrest of blacks have  Even though drug charges are ludicrous across races, they disproportionately affect  poor and minorities. Multiple studies, some commissioned by government agencies, have concluded that whites are more likely to sell drugs and use drugs (by percentage, not sheer number) but blacks are exponentially more likely to face legal penalties.

Cool, thanks Al.  Any link on the studies that show whites sell and use drugs more blacks by percentage? 

Btw...I think most drugs should be legal. 

But go ahead and keep going.  You are showing here a discrepancy in drug charges on whites vs blacks?

[tonymctones]

Brown was a dickhead, no question.....but did he deserve to die for jaywalking???

hey albert, do you see what I mean now?

HEY SKIP, DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN NOW???

[tonymctones]

isnt that a false equivalence
blacks by cops.
Whites by blacks


i swear racial tribal mentality is fucking sickening. Its damn near a mental defect to me. US vs Them...
I understand its been passed down from generation to generation, but in the information age.. you would expect more....

LMFAO malbert dont even try guy.

Where are these idiots when a black cop kills a black kid? Where are the riots when that happens?

The whole of these protests started as a result of white cops killing black kids.

[tonymctones]

Didn't know you were a minority. Actually strange to see a minority with good values of responsibility, education and taking control of your own life. And never accepting BS excuses or pointing at others instead of yourself for your miserable fucking life.

There's some people on here that can learn from that

technically Im a half breed half jap/half white but if obama is black I guess I am japanese lol

plenty of minorities like me, most of my friends are either minorities or half breeds such as myself and we are all hard working, educated people who have strong family values.

[Al Doggity]

hey albert, do you see what I mean now?

HEY SKIP, DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN NOW???

You got me. Even a broken clock...

[Al Doggity]

Cool, thanks Al.  Any link on the studies that show whites sell and use drugs more blacks by percentage? 

Btw...I think most drugs should be legal. 

But go ahead and keep going.  You are showing here a discrepancy in drug charges on whites vs blacks?

Here is a link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html

If you google, you can find several others.

Drug charges are just one aspect.  I don't really have the time (or inclination) to write a thesis tonight, but I will respond to any debate/ clear up any questions. I'm just not gonna write thousand word posts like I might have been inclined to do last night. I legitimately welcome questions/debate on this subject because I think  a lot of things that aren't true are taken for granted and exaggerated.

[Al Doggity]

I actually got into this with another poster awhile back, but he declined to continue.

If you're interested in checking out the convo it's here, but I am posting two of my posts that I think are relevant:

You don't even have to make assumptions. Ignore incarceration rates. The numbers are even worse when you look at arrest rates. Even though multiple studies have shown that blacks and whites use marijuana at almost the same rate, the arrest rate 4 blacks is nearly 4 times as high.

Here's a link with some comprehensive charts (and, yes, the study was commissioned by that ACLU via federal data);
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nih

The Times also went over the data independently and verified it's accurate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/marijuana-arrests-four-times-as-likely-for-blacks.html
From the Times:


Federal programs like the Edward Byrne Justice Assistance Grant Program continue to provide incentives for racial profiling, the report said, by including arrest numbers in its performance measures when distributing hundreds of millions of dollars to local law enforcement each year.

Phillip Atiba Goff, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, said that police departments, partly driven by a desire to increase their drug arrest statistics, can concentrate on minority or poorer neighborhoods to meet numerical goals, focusing on low-level offenses that are easier, quicker and cheaper than investigating serious felony crimes.

“Whenever federal funding agencies encourage law enforcement to meet numerical arrest goals instead of public safety goals, it will likely promote stereotype-based policing and we can expect these sorts of racial gaps,” Professor Goff said.

[Al Doggity]

From that same thread:

So here's a link to an article that discusses NY's marijuana arrests on HuffPo. We have this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/05/of-50000-marijuana-arrest_n_1078023.html
New York's lowest-level marijuana-possession charge – criminal possession of marijuana in the 5th degree, a misdemeanor – has been the most common arrest charge in the city for much of the past decade, and the numbers have been steadily rising. So far this year there have been 38,359 reported arrests. Last year, there were 50,377 arrests citywide, up from 46,492 in 2009, according to statistics from the state Division of Criminal Justice Services. That represents about 616 arrests per 100,000 city residents.

So, here in NYC the fact is that the majority of arrests-much less drug possession arrests- are made explicitly for that sole, low-level charge. Even if you want to try to make the argument that conviction rates reflect black men have more priors, the recidivism rate is artificially inflated by a policy of bullshit charges targeting a certain demographic. As the article points out, it is hard to make direct comparisons across state lines, but keeping in mind how federal funding is handed out and arrest patterns are pretty consistent nationwide, it is pretty likely that the same factors come into play.

[Al Doggity]

I disagree again....the fact of the matter is a policeman is sanctioned by law and authority to take life if necessary....they are armed for that purpose....not just for self defense....

and you are right when you say that if a policeman DOES take a life there are supposed to be repercussions.....and that's what this is about.....there are too many controversial shootings of unarmed black men where there have been no repercussions....no indictment,.... that's the assertion being made by the protesters....and there were a huge amount of mistakes in the Brown investigation....

also let me say that historically whites HAVE formed mobs to protest and lynch innocent blacks and guilty blacks as well.....whites may not do this today by and large but there is a historical basis for such

Brown was a dickhead, no question.....but did he deserve to die for jaywalking???

Definitely agree with this. I think it's either dishonest or naive to pretend that there's not a difference between the way things ARE and the way they should be. That's why I posted that Ferguson jury thread yesterday. Even if you agree with the grand jury's outcome, it would be interesting to hear how the juror's impression of the trial differs from the prosecutors. It is an open secret that a case against a cop is not going to be prosecuted vigorously.

[OzmO]

Here is a link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html

If you google, you can find several others.

Drug charges are just one aspect.  I don't really have the time (or inclination) to write a thesis tonight, but I will respond to any debate/ clear up any questions. I'm just not gonna write thousand word posts like I might have been inclined to do last night. I legitimately welcome questions/debate on this subject because I think  a lot of things that aren't true are taken for granted and exaggerated.

Thanks for the link.

Al, Some of these differences are very marginal at best.  For example, cocaine use in the past 12 months .2-.6% differences?  Stimulate .1_.3%?  Same with crack

Doesn't seem like much of a difference.   Am I reading this wrong?

Having used cocaine and "usage" of cocaine are 2 different things. Usage is a better indicator and if you take into account the natural variance in any survey +/-%  they are dead even. 

[George Whorewell]

These baboons protest at lilly white establishment filled with hipsters and old people who voted for liberals. Talk about courage without consequence. I would love to see these apes try to pull the same crap in a white ethnic neighborhood located in one of the outer boros. I can see the headline now: " "Albanians stomp black protestors to death, then finish breakfast."

[Al Doggity]

Thanks for the link.

Al, Some of these differences are very marginal at best.  For example, cocaine use in the past 12 months .2-.6% differences?  Stimulate .1_.3%?  Same with crack

Doesn't seem like much of a difference.   Am I reading this wrong?

Having used cocaine and "usage" of cocaine are 2 different things. Usage is a better indicator and if you take into account the natural variance in any survey +/-%  they are dead even. 

Me pointing out the minor disparity between drug activity between races was not meant to imply that whites should be jailed at drastically higher rates than blacks. Just to highlight how odd it was that the incarceration rate for blacks was so much higher.

[OzmO]

Me pointing out the minor disparity between drug activity between races was not meant to imply that whites should be jailed at drastically higher rates than blacks. Just to highlight how odd it was that the incarceration rate for blacks was so much higher.

Initially the thing that stuck out as strange was the assertion that whites use and sell more drugs at a much higher percentage than blacks.

Multiple studies, some commissioned by government agencies, have concluded that whites are more likely to sell drugs and use drugs

It doesn't seem to be the case and that huffington post article seemed to spin the actual 2011 study a little bit.

I agree (without researching it much) incarceration rates are higher.  There may be reasons for this, that don't include a "pattern".  Such as how the drugs are sold in these areas and police presence does to other factors.

My focus about this is more on the violent crime aspect, not the drug aspect, but i can see how it may play into over policing.

[Al Doggity]

Initially the thing that stuck out as strange was the assertion that whites use and sell more drugs at a much higher percentage than blacks.

I never actually said "much higher" and, like I said, that was neither what I intended to imply nor the point of my argument.

[OzmO]

I never actually said "much higher" and, like I said, that was neither what I intended to imply nor the point of my argument.

ok, but can we agree that:

Multiple studies, some commissioned by government agencies, have concluded that whites are more likely to sell drugs and use drugs

is really not the case?  And that the huffington post article was being a bit untruthful?  

[andreisdaman]

I never actually said "much higher" and, like I said, that was neither what I intended to imply nor the point of my argument.

Actually whites on average DO use, sell, and possess drugs at a much higher rate than blacks but are not targetyed for such..all statistics state the same..even Rand Paul recently acknowledged this and even he wondered aloud why the descrepancy in arrest rates for blacks and whites.....

and in terms of drug use, whites use a variety of drugs that most blacks don't use...such as mushrooms, LSD, molly, ecstacy, crystal meth....even heroin.......these drugs are mostly prevalent in the white community...who is it that runs all of these illegal meth labs and other labs where synthetic drugs are manufactuired?......blacks are usually into Marijuana...crack cocaine, and heroin

[OzmO]

Actually whites on average DO use, sell, and possess drugs at a much high rate than blacks but are not targetyed for such..all statistics state the same..even Rand Paul recently acknowledged this and even he wondered aloud why the descrepancy in arrest rates for blacks and whites.....

and in terms of drug use, whites use a variety of drugs that most blacks don't use...such as mushrooms, LSD, molly, ecstacy, crystal meth....even heroin.......these drugs are moslt prevalent in the white community...who is it that runs all of these illegal meth labs and other labs where synthetic drugs are manufactuired?......blacks are usually into Marijuana...crack cocaine, and heroin

NOT based on the study provided.  According to the study .4 percent of whites used hallucinogens vs .3 of blacks in the last 30 days.

also cociane:  black .6% vs .4% of whites in the last 30 days

I am just going by the study....   if you account for a =/- variance of all studies then they are pretty much even

PS:  no need to quote Rand Paul to support your argument thinking i will trust his judgement, i play the 2 side game.  i give both sides shit.

[OzmO]

here's a good one for you:

recency of use in the last 30 days of pot:

whites:  7.2%  Blacks 8.3%

Even though its a 1.1% difference the other way its still a very small insignificant difference.

[andreisdaman]

misleading.......percent age of use is admittedly high among blacks due to other factiors such as untreated mental illness and poverty...the poor always use more as a percentage of population.......however because there are more whites, the number of whites using daily is higher in hard numbers, also white drug abuse is more varied and often takes the form of addiction to prescription pills, like valium, vicodin, Xanax, etc....

[Al Doggity]

ok, but can we agree that:

is really not the case?  And that the huffington post article was being a bit untruthful?  

I presented  that racial comparison that way not because whites outuse blacks by a large degree but because the usage rates are comparable and I assumed someone not familiar with the data would assume otherwise. In retrospect, I could've framed it better but the point was that the usage rates are similar, and if anything tilt slightly towards higher usage from whites, yet incarceration rates are drastically different.

Here is another link from the Brookings Institute.
This guy references a gov't survey.

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/social-mobility-memos/posts/2014/09/30-war-on-drugs-black-social-mobility-rothwell


For the record, I'm actually  not entirely anti-drug prosecution. But the way drug enforcement operates today is a travesty.

[OzmO]

misleading.......percentage of use is admittedly high among blacks due to other factiors such as untreated mental illness and poverty...the poor always use more as a percentage of population.......however because there are more whites, the number of whites using daily is higher in hard numbers, also white drug abuse is more varied and often takes the form of addiction to prescription pills, like valium, vicodin, Xanax, etc....

What's misleading was the article talking about the study.  the study is simple facts.

What's not a fact, based on the study provided, is this:

Multiple studies, some commissioned by government agencies, have concluded that whites are more likely to sell drugs and use drugs


i think, Andre, you are just trying to hold on the your belief rather than actually look at data.

"White must use & sell drugs more, Black are unfairly targeted"  right?

did you even look at the study?

[OzmO]

I presented  that racial comparison that way not because whites outuse blacks by a large degree but because the usage rates are comparable and I assumed someone not familiar with the data would assume otherwise. In retrospect, I could've framed it better but the point was that the usage rates are similar, and if anything tilt slightly towards higher usage from whites, yet incarceration rates are drastically different.

Here is another link from the Brookings Institute.
This guy references a gov't survey.

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/social-mobility-memos/posts/2014/09/30-war-on-drugs-black-social-mobility-rothwell


For the record, I'm actually  not entirely anti-drug prosecution. But the way drug enforcement operates today is a travesty.

i will take that as a yes, whites are not "more" likely, just slightly if not insignificantly, inclined to use drugs than blacks.

If you want to keep going in this drug direction we can (and somewhat interested).  but i am really interested more in the violent crime aspect because that was originally what i was talking about. 

[Al Doggity]

i will take that as a yes, whites are not "more" likely, just slightly if not insignificantly, inclined to use drugs than blacks.

If you want to keep going in this drug direction we can (and somewhat interested).  but i am really interested more in the violent crime aspect because that was originally what i was talking about. 

I feel like you're arguing with a point that was never made, but, technically, even "slightly more" is more.

You can bring up topic/ask question/ direct conversation anyway you like. What do you want to discuss about violent crime?

[OzmO]

I feel like you're arguing with a point that was never made, but, technically, even "slightly more" is more.

You can bring up topic/ask question/ direct conversation anyway you like. What do you want to discuss about violent crime?

I thought part of your argument about over policing had to do with drug use/sale by whites being higher yet blacks are incarcerated more.   I was pointing out that drug use wasn't really higher based on links your provided. And it was spin in the article.

This is what is was originally asking about:


Is there data on this that indicates this "design"?   If so why do you suppose it's this way?

It would seem to me an area with higher violent crime rates warrant more policing.

There are many neighborhoods I can walk around at night with little worry and there are neighborhoods I would never walk around at night in.

It seems to make better sense to focus police in areas with higher crimes rates. 

I  am  interested in yours or another view on this. 

I don't think I agree much with what you're saying, but I believe I could be just plain naive about it.  I live in the San Francisco Bay area and have spent plenty of time in  "minority neighborhoods" both affluent and poor, white, black, Hispanics and Asian. 

[whork]

I actually got into this with another poster awhile back, but he declined to continue.

If you're interested in checking out the convo it's here, but I am posting two of my posts that I think are relevant:

You don't even have to make assumptions. Ignore incarceration rates. The numbers are even worse when you look at arrest rates. Even though multiple studies have shown that blacks and whites use marijuana at almost the same rate, the arrest rate 4 blacks is nearly 4 times as high.

Here's a link with some comprehensive charts (and, yes, the study was commissioned by that ACLU via federal data);
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nih

The Times also went over the data independently and verified it's accurate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/marijuana-arrests-four-times-as-likely-for-blacks.html
From the Times:


Federal programs like the Edward Byrne Justice Assistance Grant Program continue to provide incentives for racial profiling, the report said, by including arrest numbers in its performance measures when distributing hundreds of millions of dollars to local law enforcement each year.

Phillip Atiba Goff, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, said that police departments, partly driven by a desire to increase their drug arrest statistics, can concentrate on minority or poorer neighborhoods to meet numerical goals, focusing on low-level offenses that are easier, quicker and cheaper than investigating serious felony crimes.

“Whenever federal funding agencies encourage law enforcement to meet numerical arrest goals instead of public safety goals, it will likely promote stereotype-based policing and we can expect these sorts of racial gaps,” Professor Goff said.

Law enforcement and the penal system is a business.