Author Topic: Three job offers - what to do...  (Read 20464 times)

denarii

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Three job offers - what to do...
« on: January 13, 2015, 01:13:30 PM »
So I work as a senior analyst in a bank allocating client money to hedge funds. Its not as complicated as it sounds after you have done it for a while and Im really bored of it. and there are loads of other issues where I am now. Pay is OK but nothing special by finance standards. I could stay but I dont want to and have spent 3 years pretty much trying to get out, now having done the same damn job for 10 years straight.

So the three offers:

Join a hedge fund
I can join a quant hedge fund tomorrow as a founding partner if I wanted. The long term potential is good/ great, but potential needs to be realized and therein lies the risk. Having been intro'd to the founder last summer we have become good friends at least professionally. Everything stacks up, only problem is he has only $7m and needs $50-100m for it to be commercial. If only I had rich parents. There is a decent chance he raises decent money soon, possibly from the next two opportunities below, and I have been helping a lot on the side regarding that but getting off the ground is the hardest part and there are no guarantees.

Join a start up acceleration group
Basically a new firm with maybe $65m on day one, strategy is giving a few million to new private equity firms and helping them raise a PE fund in exchange for a stake. Doing same with hedge funds but giving an addition $15-20m ticket to start a co-mingled fund. I dont know the guy well but he seems OK overall, good on investment side, he has done this before at the firm he left. I heard he is a noisy Mediterranean type when he gets excited, as you could say. It would be OK but he would have control over the investments, so really its just a third party fund marketing job for me, which is not really what I have been looking for. There are merits buy maybe he is a better person to know than work with day to day.

Join a multi-family office
I could join a new investment desk at a >$1bn multi fam office. An ex colleague has joined to build up asset management there and I could be head of research. Its the lowest risk job, but the exact job has limited upside. If I can build up a track record of managing money directly in the markets however then there is more upside, like my own fund or a spin out later on.

Each opportunity by itself is decent in the real world. By choice I would take the first, but I cant let the other two pass by either in case the first doesnt work out and then I am still stuck where I am. At 35 years old decent opportunities dont come past every five minutes.



Skorp1o

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2015, 01:43:09 AM »
Number 1 could be more hassle than it's worth, personally I think unless he was a recognized name and start at a healthier chunk of money then may be, but £7mil under management...you have a looooong way to go. Is there a strategy or a plan in place with targets? does it stack up? What's the guys track record?

Setting up a hedge fund itself is not a big task, I've helped one with their FCA authorisations from scratch....getting investors to pool the money that's the business. The one I helped had solid assets ready to be pooled in on day one from institutional investors (£50mil), as the investors were following the "name" of the manager and he had established relationships. Those same investors had deep pockets so when the performance was good, he didn't really need to find new investors as such, e.g. the holding of one account tripled within 24mths.

At 35 you can't afford a mistake, i.e. flogging a dead horse for a year or two then moving on with a shitty failed business on your CV, me being in Compliance I can swing it, but your role is more commercially related so it could be mirrored on you and you have to dig yourself out of it.

Personally the 3rd one seems like the most viable option.
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pedro01

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2015, 07:16:18 AM »
OK - so right now - you do not invest people's money?  You are more on the sell side? You somehow allocate your clients money to people that can actually invest it or you help convince them to invest?

Offer 1 - 'quant hedge fund founding partner' - so some dude has a computer program, they are not up & running yet and they want you as a partner? In other words - they want you to bring your existing clients into their untested computer driven gamble?

Offer 2 - pure sell side finance job. New firm - might be good if you get some sort of profit related or share-incentive.

Offer 3 - head of research - bullshit job writing papers full of nonsense to get muppets to part with their cash. How would you go from 'research' (writing papers full of stuff someone wants you to say) to actually managing money? It's a bit of a leap innit?

Skorp1o

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2015, 07:57:21 AM »
OK - so right now - you do not invest people's money?  You are more on the sell side? You somehow allocate your clients money to people that can actually invest it or you help convince them to invest?

Offer 1 - 'quant hedge fund founding partner' - so some dude has a computer program, they are not up & running yet and they want you as a partner? In other words - they want you to bring your existing clients into their untested computer driven gamble?

Offer 2 - pure sell side finance job. New firm - might be good if you get some sort of profit related or share-incentive.

Offer 3 - head of research - bullshit job writing papers full of nonsense to get muppets to part with their cash. How would you go from 'research' (writing papers full of stuff someone wants you to say) to actually managing money? It's a bit of a leap innit?

Isn't that the sole purpose of the whole HF industry anyway?
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pedro01

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2015, 07:58:54 AM »
Isn't that the sole purpose of the whole HF industry anyway?

Of course.

But where do the bonuses lie?

Skorp1o

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2015, 08:14:12 AM »
Of course.

But where do the bonuses lie?

I can't see any money in option 1 at that level of investments unless the genius running it realises a spectacular return (try 100%), or unless it's a Ponzi scheme where they will just help themselves to the capital and then run away to avoid jail...I guess Denarii can just fuck off to Sri Lanka and buy himself an upgraded colonial villa by the sea and sprout more children who hopefully wont inherit his inferior bodybuilding genetics.
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denarii

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2015, 01:16:25 PM »
Option 1
Its not a business at $7m, at $50-100m it becomes a business, the strategy is scalable. He needs to do a deal. Manager is good, one of the smartest people I have met, good work history, fund performed well last year, nice guy. But CTAs have been out of favour until recently and he has no clue about the commercial side of industry. He has a potential deal in pipeline that may be $50-100m. There are a few other prospects but if he could be seeded by option 2 or 3 that would work as well. But in the short term there are no guarantees.

Option 3
The people I have spoken to all said take this. Like I said if this group could seed the hf that would be two birds with one stone for me.

----------------

My job right now is review, monitor, advise on illiquid investments, ie hedge funds. Our portfolio mgmt team face clients based off an approved list, we have about 200 active accounts. Final decisions until recently were made by a committee of three that I sat in on but didnt have voting power on. This job is a buy side job.

option 1 is basically sales and bus mgmt, 2 is placement/ marketing, 3 is mostly investment, some client stuff.

denarii

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2015, 01:18:02 PM »
option three would have to be titled head of research, it cant be CIO as that would overlap the group CIO and the fact the guy hiring me would have the final say eitherway.

denarii

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2015, 01:22:00 PM »
OK - so right now - you do not invest people's money?  You are more on the sell side? You somehow allocate your clients money to people that can actually invest it or you help convince them to invest?

we allocate money to external hedge funds. option 3 would also have some thematic direct investment. i have no interest in single stocks or corp credit professionally.

pedro01

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 07:09:42 PM »
we allocate money to external hedge funds. option 3 would also have some thematic direct investment. i have no interest in single stocks or corp credit professionally.

Sounds like you are halfway between sell side & buy side.

Doesn't that narrow down your options?

ritch

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2015, 08:21:48 PM »
Screw all that.

Spend all your savings to become a pro bb'er. You know this is what you want and this is the little push needed to get you there.
?

denarii

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2015, 11:29:09 PM »
Screw all that.

Spend all your savings to become a pro bb'er. You know this is what you want and this is the little push needed to get you there.

I ruled that out years ago due to all the schmoe work. And then having to meet the mayor in real life too.

denarii

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2015, 02:40:07 AM »
So the hedge fund and acceleration guy met yesterday, and a deal is being discussed. Meeting the multi fam office next thurs.

Darren Avey

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2015, 08:24:52 AM »
As I don't understand any of what exactly these jobs entail all I would suggest is go with what your heart and no one else says.

Skorp1o

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2015, 01:56:16 AM »
As I don't understand any of what exactly these jobs entail all I would suggest is go with what your heart and no one else says.

Same thing...they all involve risking other peoples money for personal gain.

HTH
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pedro01

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 03:40:33 AM »
Same thing...they all involve risking other peoples money for personal gain.

HTH

You sure? Surely head of research will never be pulling the trigger. There will always be someone else taking on those recommendations (or not) and putting money at risk.

That's why what he does now is half-in half-out. He's not making at the action end of the market really - just doing the "fund of funds, that's 1% of capital a year thank you very much"

I say he should take this experience and get his foot out of the sell side completely.

Skorp1o

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2015, 04:42:32 AM »
You sure? Surely head of research will never be pulling the trigger. There will always be someone else taking on those recommendations (or not) and putting money at risk.

That's why what he does now is half-in half-out. He's not making at the action end of the market really - just doing the "fund of funds, that's 1% of capital a year thank you very much"

I say he should take this experience and get his foot out of the sell side completely.

I was talking about the field he's in as a whole, apart from execution only Broker dealers and Prop Trading the rest are pretty much other people's money.

S

pedro01

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 06:58:10 AM »
I was talking about the field he's in as a whole, apart from execution only Broker dealers and Prop Trading the rest are pretty much other people's money.



Sure - but analysts exist to get other people to make trades. That's the sell side of finance in a nutshell. Analysts don't trade. They try to get other people to buy stuff.

So he's half in the sell side and half in the buy side. The buy side is where the bonuses are. So head of research will never make the $$$ that head of trading makes.

So unless he gets a stake in an organisation, I think it better to stay away from analyst type work.

Skorp1o

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2015, 08:25:40 AM »
Sure - but analysts exist to get other people to make trades. That's the sell side of finance in a nutshell. Analysts don't trade. They try to get other people to buy stuff.

I don't know how people can do this long term, pretty much any analysts I know do the same shite day in and day out for years on end. Same template, same lay out research same wording, just swap the name of the company at the top and add a different ticker.
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denarii

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2015, 10:23:37 AM »
For option three to be viable I need to be co decision maker.

I sent my terms to the hf guy. Said he will come back to me. He is still speaking to me, which is positive. I basically said i want 20% over time or its not happening. I'm meeting a fam office principle on friday. He might be another seed option. His family sold a pulp and paper business for $300m in the early 90s. Or he might offer me a job. Last time I asked him for a job he was more focussed on private equity so no interest.


Re analyst jobs. They are boring. Sooner or later you want to be a PM or move to the business side.

2Thick

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2015, 11:04:07 AM »
Only you know your own personal situation - or at least you know it better than anyone else. If you're leaving something that offers a steady paycheck, it would probably be a good idea to have a couple of years worth of cash or easily liquidated assets set aside to get by on. Even if you see that you made a mistake early on and want to get back into something more solid, it may take a while to get back into an old occupation. If you have a wife, kids, mortgage, car notes, etc, it becomes even more complicated.

I'm not an expert on English culture or regulations, but I can tell you that over here that gathering assets is a real challenge for just about everyone - it's usually the hard part. Investing is or should be relatively simple, if time consuming.

The regs are insane here if you're not dealing with accredited investors. Investments, financial services, insurance, loans, institutions, etc are highly regulated here, but much less so for accredited investors, funds with less than $150 mil, funds with relatively small numbers of investors, and private investment funds in general.

As for any prospective business partners, contractors, employers, employees, clients, etc, I always get everything in writing and put everything in writing and check out anyone thoroughly who I plan to do business with. Do they have any sort of criminal history, history of filing bankruptcy, bankrupting companies, or of being sued or always suing others, for instance?

I'd make sure you don't assume anything and have everything spelled out in black and white. Like if you bring in $50-100 mil or whatever into a business, make sure you can take your clientele with you if you leave without legal hassles - or at least have some sort of equitable arrangement for if / when you split up.


As for getting the business, it can be very difficult to get people to hand $ over to you. And those with money are going to be older, wiser people for the most part who want to invest their $ with people they have some degree of trust and confidence in - generally not with bullshitters they usually smell a mile away who are throwing big words at them or telling them things they are smart enough to know are too good to be true.

People are cautious, even if they are not financially sophisticated. With all of the Ponzi schemes that have gone on, and with the internet and the ability to get information so easily, people in general are more likely to put $ into big recognizable institutions with people they often know and like. And people want transparency and generally a sense of relative safety.

Many people who don't have money will lie to you and make you think they do. Asking them the right questions and doing a little homework will usually separate the flakes and fakes pretty quickly & easily. Younger males under 30-40 who are "entrepreneurs" with "tech startups" or otherwise work or claim to work in other cliched lucrative occupations rarely have millions - the Mark Cubans and Jerry Yangs of the world are the exception rather than the rule. But many times their dads and grandpas do have money. Almost all of my clients are over 60. And they tend to be more conservative and more concerned about income, stability, and reducing taxes than trying to get huge returns in a hurry on most, if not all of their $.

And anybody who actually wants to be told something that is too good to be true and who has unrealistic expectations is someone you don't want to fool with - they'll make your life hell. And if someone is only interested in something like giving you some $ for a short period of time for some unrealistic return and then taking the money out and doing something else with it, I personally have no use for them. I want longterm relationships where I make many millions off each client, their kids, grandkids, etc on down the line over many years and decades. But that's just me.

I hope it goes well whatever way you go. Be careful.
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denarii

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2015, 02:00:46 PM »
Some solid advice.

Howard

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2015, 11:25:24 AM »
Here are 3 better options:

1. PM Vince Basille and be a venture capitalist investor in his bicep machine.

2. PM Vince Goodrum and be a silent partner in Calliber fitness.

3. PM me and we can exchange cell #'s. You'll quickly get so bored, you'll be thrilled with any job.

denarii

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2015, 01:08:19 PM »
I spent about 2 hrs with option 3 today and seeing option one tomorrow. Will probably need to make a decision next week. Most people I spoke to thought three was best risk adj choice.

2Thick

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Re: Three job offers - what to do...
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2015, 02:55:40 PM »
Starting off in a situation that will pay you a base salary for a while while you build relationships and learn the ins and outs is probably a good idea for most people.

I spent about a year at a local branch of one of the world's largest banks, then went to a local branch of one of the world's largest brokerage firms for several years while I built up my asset base. Not as sexy as the hedge fund industry, but I was able to use the institutions' names to give myself at least a little instant credibility, then use the time they would give me to win them over with my own charm and knowledge.

Joined the local country club, learned to play golf, got up early on the weekends sometimes to go hunt or fish. Started hanging out at various uppity social functions, kept a stack of business cards on me everywhere I went, mailed out thousands of letters to people who were likely to have retirement savings, and spent lots of time finding out who was who locally and who likely had assets and learning that there were many who didn't.

I did lots of research on local businesses and called and visited the owners, managers, etc. You can't call people at home here in the US. I learned to follow the money. Around here that meant mainly oil and gas money. I learned that some people with 10 million or 100 million or more were often small farmers with lots of oil and gas under their land who spent most of their time in coveralls and tended to drive pickup trucks. I also learned that many of the lawyers in my area were barely making a living and had little or no net worth in many cases despite wearing expensive suits, living in nice neighborhoods, and driving high end cars they traded up every couple of years. And often 50-something guys with dirt under their fingernails who had hourly jobs in local industries often retired with 7 figures in their 401ks.

 I'd have people I knew pass around my cards at places I couldn't usually get into that had very good retirement plans for employees like power plants, oil refineries, chemical plants, etc. I wasn't above buying someone a nice dinner and drinks or perhaps otherwise rewarding them for referring a millionaire to me who gave me their business.

I spent lots of time and more than a few bucks of my own money. I learned pretty quick that those who didn't already have some type of financial advisor already either didn't have money or else they were too young to pull out whatever they'd accumulated in their tax-advantaged work plan. And those who "did their own" usually had very little.

Those who claimed to have an advisor but couldn't remember his name were either lying about having one or didn't have much money - if I give someone a million dollars of my money to invest for me, you can bet I'll always remember his name.

Those claiming to have an advisor and claiming to have a substantial amount of money and saying they were open to a second opinion or open to moving some money into something better or whatever who wouldn't provide me with a recent statement and the basic info I'd need to put together some sort of plan were usually just fakes who didn't have shit. As were some who accepted my invitations to a nice steak dinner and drinks I'd buy them. I always knew whether or not a guy actually had much money by how he acted at a nice dinner paid for by someone else. If he ordered the most expensive foods and beverages on the menu when someone else was paying, he was never a person of any wealth.  ;)
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