Author Topic: The Fox News Version of Events  (Read 14815 times)

Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #100 on: March 17, 2015, 06:36:43 PM »

You confirm you misinterpreted the number ten to refer to ten people not ten incidents in a series. Then you claim the study itself says its limited to ten people.

It's a crime study. There were 150000 case studies  covering every category of American crime. Some categories, specifically rape, had fewer than 10 case studies when broken down by race, gender, etc. Within the study itself was a warning that these categories with fewer than 10 case studies weren't statistically reliable. You repeatedly claimed that they were.  

They are just acknowledging the sample size is small, that's all.  The sample sizes could be bigger.   Despite the small sample size the RCVS is pretty certain they are right.

They specifically said that they weren't. None of this has anything to do with series incidents.

Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2015, 06:41:45 PM »
Again you deny series incidents are an issue.  I admitted and corrected my errors back in December.  Even in this thread you repeated the mistake of 10 respondents.

LOL you're a mess.

Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2015, 06:46:46 PM »
It's a crime study. There were 150000 case studies  covering every category of American crime. Some categories, specifically rape, had fewer than 10 case studies when broken down by race, gender, etc. Within the study itself was a warning that these categories with fewer than 10 case studies weren't statistically reliable. You repeatedly claimed that they were.  

They specifically said that they weren't. None of this has anything to do with series incidents.

Yes it does and I already posted a link in a previous thread that discussed the methodology and another link that studied the methodology in a previous thread.  Like everything else you didn't read any of the information.  Apparently you're back to believing its ten total respondents when you've been arguing you really meant ten incidents for the last two pages of this thread.

LOL you're a mess.

You're a moron who thinks ten people were surveyed.   Then you argued in this thread you didn't mean ten people and now here you are back to arguing it's ten total people.
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Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #103 on: March 17, 2015, 07:05:31 PM »
Yes it does and I already posted a link in a previous thread that discussed the methodology and another link that studied the methodology in a previous thread.  Like everything else you didn't read any of the information.  Apparently you're back to believing its ten total respondents when you've been arguing you really meant ten incidents for the last two pages of this thread.

I never argued that I mean 10 incident or 10 respondents. These are things you brought up. I just tried to get you to understand that they weren't interchangeable. You are the one who had trouble understanding the study, which is the point of all this. This is me , right from the beginning:

Me:

Right in the link you provided it shows that the survey included over 150,000 people.

Never a question about the scope of the study, even back in October.




Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #104 on: March 17, 2015, 07:07:27 PM »
Quote
You're a moron who thinks ten people were surveyed.   Then you argue
 in this thread you didn't mean ten people and now here you are back to arguing it's ten total people.

Nope. As I just showed, never argued that. Showed several posts where you argued both of those things. Here's another:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=551654.msg7773999#msg7773999

They conduct a large number of interviews in intervals of time period of time like three months to six months to a year.  To avoid inflating the numbers they take ten from the pool and calculate the percentages that way.

Seriously. This is fucking stupid.

Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #105 on: March 17, 2015, 07:08:46 PM »
I never argued that I mean 10 incident or 10 respondents. These are things you brought up. I just tried to get you to understand that they weren't interchangeable. You are the one who had trouble understanding the study, which is the point of all this. This is me , right from the beginning:
Never a question about the scope of the study, even back in October.






You used the term 10 respondents.  You argued that it was ten respondents out of 150,000.   As I said, I corrected my argument. You dismissed incidents being relevant.


Ive already posted the reason a sample size of ten is used from information about their methodology directly from their website several times. They use a sample size of ten to fix balance issues. Its several postsup.  They provide an entire pdf abour their methodology you can dowload. TheFBI also discusses on thier website about the differences between methodology they employ versus the rcvs.  

They conduct a large number of interviews in intervals of time period of time like three months to six months to a year.  To avoid inflating the numbers they take ten from the pool and calculate the percentages that way.  They warn readers about that not because they feel their conclusion are wrong but to be transparent.  A 50% correlative coefficient doeent mean there is a 50% chance the stats are wrong.

The reason some dont use the 10 sample size has to do with the nature of the statistic. In those cases there isnt a need to correct balancing issues.  For example car theft versus sex abuse.  The chance the same car will be stolen repeatedly isnt as likeky as one person experiencing multiple instances of sexual abuse. The methodology they use is intended to prevent multiple instances of abuse on a single individual being calculated as seperate events thus screwing up the data.


The weight counts series incidents as the actual number of incidents reported by the victim, up to a maximum of 10 incidents. Including series victimizations in national rates results in rather large increases in the level of violent victimization; however, trends in violence are generally similar regardless of whether series victimizations are included.

In 2012, series incidents accounted for about 1% of all victimizations and 4% of all violent victimizations. Weighting series incidents as the number of incidents up to a maximum of 10 incidents produces more reliable estimates of crime levels, while the cap at 10 minimizes the effect of extreme outliers on the rates. Additional information on the series enumeration is detailed in the report Methods for Counting High Frequency Repeat Victimizations in the National Crime Victimization Survey, NCJ 237308, BJS web, April 2012.

You left out the rest of the quote.  The most important being in bold.
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Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #106 on: March 17, 2015, 07:14:44 PM »
The exchange with AJ clearly shows you truly did believe it was only ten respondents not ten incidents in a series.

No, it didn't. I was being sarcastic. I said this:

What if you interviewed 150,000 people, then took the most relevant 10 from the sample of 150,000. Wouldn't that make the numbers more reliable?

Then when he pointed out how stupid it sounded, I said this:


Yes, Archer77 is an idiot. He made these very suggestions in a recent post regarding that study. He's a dishonest man.

Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #107 on: March 17, 2015, 07:17:11 PM »

You used the term 10 respondents.  You argued that it was ten respondents out of 150,000.   As I said, I corrected my argument. You dismissed incidents being relevant.


You left out the rest of the quote.  The most important being in bold.


LOL those two things aren't related at all.

Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #108 on: March 17, 2015, 07:17:16 PM »
I posted this before but I doubt you read it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK202273/
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Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #109 on: March 17, 2015, 07:21:52 PM »
LOL those two things aren't related at all.

Yes they are.  You seem to think so up to an hour ago.

No, it didn't. I was being sarcastic. I said this:

What if you interviewed 150,000 people, then took the most relevant 10 from the sample of 150,000. Wouldn't that make the numbers more reliable?

Then when he pointed out how stupid it sounded, I said this:


Yes, Archer77 is an idiot. He made these very suggestions in a recent post regarding that study. He's a dishonest man.

You weren't being sarcastic. Your exchange with OMR confirms that.  You not only affirm you think the study had only ten people you claim that's what the survey itself says.
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Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #110 on: March 17, 2015, 07:22:43 PM »
Right from that report:

Unfortunately, the sampling error for estimates of victimization rates for many subpopulations of interest can become quite large on the NCVS because there are very few affirmative responses to questions about serious violent criminal victimization in the sampled groups. Thus, BJS does not provide estimates for rape and sexual assault for these subpopulations; they only provide estimates for the larger category, serious violent crimes.



 ::) You're an idiot.

Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #111 on: March 17, 2015, 07:25:16 PM »


You weren't being sarcastic.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=561440.msg7866146#msg7866146

I say this:
What if you interviewed 150,000 people, then took the most relevant 10 from the sample of 150,000. Wouldn't that make the numbers more reliable?

aj says this:

I now realize that I am being trolled. Well played.
I'm out.


And I say this:
Yes, Archer77 is an idiot. He made these very suggestions in a recent post regarding that study. He's a dishonest man.

It's not really debatable that it's sarcasm.

Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #112 on: March 17, 2015, 07:29:35 PM »
You know what I will do.  I will call them and ask for clarification
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Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #113 on: March 17, 2015, 07:31:28 PM »
Right from that report:

Unfortunately, the sampling error for estimates of victimization rates for many subpopulations of interest can become quite large on the NCVS because there are very few affirmative responses to questions about serious violent criminal victimization in the sampled groups. Thus, BJS does not provide estimates for rape and sexual assault for these subpopulations; they only provide estimates for the larger category, serious violent crimes.



 ::) You're an idiot.

Rape is a violent crime.   I don't know what this proves. You should provide the rest of the information to provide context. You're the idiot, pizzaface.
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Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #114 on: March 17, 2015, 07:35:05 PM »
As important as national-level estimates of rape and sexual assault are, there is an equivalent need for quality estimates for certain subpopulations to ascertain which demographic groups are more “at risk” to become victims and to look at regional differences in criminal victimization levels. These more focused estimates are important because they allow for better allocation of resources to prevent crime and support victims.

Unfortunately, the sampling error for estimates of victimization rates for many subpopulations of interest can become quite large on the NCVS because there are very few affirmative responses to questions about serious violent criminal victimization in the sampled groups. Thus, BJS does not provide estimates for rape and sexual assault for these subpopulations; they only provide estimates for the larger category, serious violent crimes.

For the aggregated category, serious violent crime, Table 7-2 shows that the CVs at the national level are approximately 6 percent. However, the CVs for important subpopulations are much higher because of their smaller sample sizes. For example, the NCVS estimates that blacks experienced an estimated serious violent victimization rate of 10.8 percent in 2011, which were 65 percent higher than that experienced by whites, 6.5 percent, and the CVs for blacks were high (13 percent). American Indians/Alaska Natives experienced an estimated serious violent victimization rate of 47.3 percent in 2010 and 12.6 percent in 2011, and the CVs for those years were 24 and 51 percent, respectively. It is clear that the sampling errors for these important “at-risk” subpopulation were large and the estimates were very unstable from year to year.

Do you know what they are referring to when they say subpopulations?   I do.  They are talking about state-by-state and city statistics. Young and old. And they are referring to victims not perps.  Meaning, the statistics are accurate but limited to the national level.
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Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #115 on: March 17, 2015, 07:37:34 PM »
You know what I will do.  I will call them and ask for clarification

It's always great to take the initiative to educate yourself, but you went from simply being too dumb to understand what the study meant to lying about who was making which argument.  They are not going to be able to clarify that you are an idiot and a liar . Only I can do that. Here are a few more posts with me claiming the study only had 10 respondents.

Me again:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index
.php?topic=551654.msg7774126#msg7774126

 Obviously what you posted is nonsense.

 The study is based on more than 150,000 respondents, not 10.



Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #116 on: March 17, 2015, 07:37:41 PM »
CONCLUSION 7-1 The National Crime Victimization Survey, which is designed as an omnibus victimization survey, is efficient in measuring the many types of criminal victimizations across the United States, but it does not measure the low incidence events of rape and sexual assault with the precision needed for policy and research purposes. Comparisons across subgroups and years are particularly problematic.

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Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #117 on: March 17, 2015, 07:39:00 PM »
It's always great to take the initiative to educate yourself, but you went from simply being too dumb to understand what the study meant to lying about who was making which argument.  They are not going to be able to clarify that you are an idiot and a liar . Only I can do that. Here are a few more posts with me claiming the study only had 10 respondents.

Me again:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index
.php?topic=551654.msg7774126#msg7774126



You used the term 10 respondents repeatedly.  You claimed the survey was inaccurate because the sample size of ten respondents was to small.  If you think the sample size is 150,000 what is your grounds to claim they aren't accurate?
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Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #118 on: March 17, 2015, 07:40:11 PM »
CONCLUSION 7-1 The National Crime Victimization Survey, which is designed as an omnibus victimization survey, is efficient in measuring the many types of criminal victimizations across the United States, but it does not measure the low incidence events of rape and sexual assault with the precision needed for policy and research purposes. Comparisons across subgroups and years are particularly problematic.


Uh, durr!!  ::)

Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #119 on: March 17, 2015, 07:41:07 PM »
You used the term 10 respondents repeatedly.  You claimed the survey was inaccurate because the sample size of ten respondents was to small.  If you think the sample size is 150,000 what is your grounds to claim they aren't accurate?


Me from October:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=551654.msg7774700#msg7774700

There were 150000 people randomly surveyed in the crime study and when the survey was broken down by race, age, sex, etc, many categories had 10 case studies or fewer. In those cases, the authors of the study warn that those number aren't really reliable.

That's it. It's no more complicated than that.


Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #120 on: March 17, 2015, 07:41:34 PM »
Uh, durr!!  ::)

Whats your point then, pizza face?  You didn't even know what they meant by subpopulation.

What does 10 sample cases mean to you?
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Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #121 on: March 17, 2015, 07:43:55 PM »
Whats your point then, pizza face?  You didn't even know what they meant by subpopulation.

What does 10 sample cases mean to you?

Of course I knew what it meant, why do you think I quoted it? ::)


Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #122 on: March 17, 2015, 07:48:09 PM »
It's occurring to me that you probably don't understand what it means. I will spare you further embarrassment and inform you; it's a subgroup, subcategory, the point of discussion. If a subpopulation has only 10 available case studies, it's not a reliable statistic for research purposes.  ::)

Archer77

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #123 on: March 17, 2015, 07:48:32 PM »
Of course I knew what it meant, why do you think I quoted it.  ::)




Apparently you didn't because you posted the excerpt because you felt it proved something it obviously didn't. What does ten sample cases mean to you?  Don't change the term to available. 
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Al Doggity

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Re: The Fox News Version of Events
« Reply #124 on: March 17, 2015, 07:50:12 PM »

Apparently you didn't because you posted the excerpt because you felt it proved something it obviously didn't. What does ten sample cases mean to you?

It proves what I"ve been saying all along:  SOME SUBGROUPS IN THAT REPORT DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH SAMPLE CASES TO MAKE STATISTICALLY RELIABLE CONCLUSIONS!!