Who had the better physique - Shawn ray or Dexter jackson?

[njflex]

U FORGOT  .. ..

[NarcissisticDeity]

ND, I usually agree with most of your arguments. But not regarding Ronnie 97 vs 98. For those of us that were at both shows, it was obvious that Ronnie was ‘transformed’ (as is obvious when studying pics and movies). He was bigger, fuller and sharper. I think the comparison picture you provided only underscores this. It shows improvements almost all over, that is sum is significant. His delts and traps were clearly bigger. So was his back and thighs (and stomach). Look at the chest as well, fuller and thus slightly improved. It was almost felt like Yates 92 vs 93 (I said almost).
The numbers regarding bodyweight are clearly misleading as ‘evidence’ (and not the least because they are seldom trustworthy). Take Lee Haney 90 vs 91 as an example. In 90 he said his weight was approximately 259, and in 91 it was around 248. Take a look at pics and movies, or ask those being there. It is clear that he looked smaller and almost ‘skinny-fat and flat’ in 90 as compared to 91, where his condition made him appear much bigger even though he weighed less. Same goes with Ronnie. More muscles/thickness in the right places despite a (slightly) lighter weight.
That aside, I strongly agree with you that if Ronnie 98 showed up in 93 or 95, he would not have beaten Yates. One legacy that Ronnie has provided to judging is the neglecting of calf developments. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, you were damned if you totally lacked calf development. I remember many good bodybuilders that were (perhaps rightfully) overlooked and held back for that reason. I also remember comments on Ronnie; that he had great bodyparts but that he would not reach the top due to lacking calves. If calves were weak it was worse than if other bodyparts were weak. It was considered to throw off the balance and symmetry (which is totally correct). After Ronnie’s reign this is aalmost not an issue anymore. It is clearly much more tolerance among judges and some fans for weak calves.
Had Ronnie showed up in 93 with his 98 version, he would not be good enough to dethrone an improved Yates. If you put both out of context though, it could have gone both ways. With the judging criteria of the early 90s, I think Yates would have won. With the judging criteria of the 2000s, Ronnie would perhaps have won. The judging criteria (how it is interpreted and used) have ‘evolved’ to the worse.   

ND, I usually agree with most of your arguments. But not regarding Ronnie 97 vs 98. For those of us that were at both shows, it was obvious that Ronnie was ‘transformed’ (as is obvious when studying pics and movies). He was bigger, fuller and sharper. I think the comparison picture you provided only underscores this. It shows improvements almost all over, that is sum is significant. His delts and traps were clearly bigger. So was his back and thighs (and stomach). Look at the chest as well, fuller and thus slightly improved. It was almost felt like Yates 92 vs 93 (I said almost).

Nothing is ' bigger ' it only appears that way. The comparison pic I made was hastily made and not scaled etc , it was just slapped side-by-side. He's not bigger anywhere , his dimensions didn't change

Dorian 92 was 242lbs and Dorian 93 was 257lbs that was noticeable and clearly evident. Ronnie 97 was 255lbs and 98 249lbs . you don't get bigger by losing weight that's an oxymoron , he could appear bigger but dimensionaly he's not going to be

In 90 he said his weight was approximately 259, and in 91 it was around 248. Take a look at pics and movies, or ask those being there. It is clear that he looked smaller and almost ‘skinny-fat and flat’ in 90 as compared to 91, where his condition made him appear much bigger even though he weighed less.

He wasn't 259 in 1990 , that was in 1989 in Italy and he said he was off and way to heavy. In fact I believe he was just 240 in 1990 and in 1991 he was his all-time best at 249lbs. Hell everyone was down in size in 1990

[EspenG]

Regarding Haney, I meant 89. He was heavy but looked flat and 'small' compared to 91

You can look bigger with less weight. and, you can look bigger because the dimensions have changed. In 98 Ronnie clearly had more mass in many of the right places. His 'shape' around the traps and delts were different dimension-wise. So was his thigh sweep. Though small separately, in sum it was very evident. We will probably never agree on that...

On a side note. I do not believe that Ronnies weight was 255 in 97. There is/was a lot of lying in that regard, and that goes for Ronnie as well.

[jude2]

Bevo not saying Dexter looks bad in those shots, but have you ever seen him is person, their guts are horriable. Dexter shots stuff in his arms and calves. I perfer the look of the guys back then, like Shawn without oil and guts.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Regarding Haney, I meant 89. He was heavy but looked flat and 'small' compared to 91

You can look bigger with less weight. and, you can look bigger because the dimensions have changed. In 98 Ronnie clearly had more mass in many of the right places. His 'shape' around the traps and delts were different dimension-wise. So was his thigh sweep. Though small separately, in sum it was very evident. We will probably never agree on that...

On a side note. I do not believe that Ronnies weight was 255 in 97. There is/was a lot of lying in that regard, and that goes for Ronnie as well.

It's an illusion , that's what being bone dry & rock hard does it gives you the illusion of being bigger. I absolutely believe Ronnie was 255lbs in 97 , he was bigger and softer than he was in 1996 where he placed better no coincidence

[Bevo]

Bevo not saying Dexter looks bad in those shots, but have you ever seen him is person, their guts are horriable. Dexter shots stuff in his arms and calves. I perfer the look of the guys back then, like Shawn without oil and guts.

Yes I've seen them both and when I'm back home in Cali I see dex on a reg basis since he's getting ready for the Olympia at the time, seen Shawn train too around 2000/2001

Dex prob shoots stuff but in close ups they don't look noticeable

Dexter is a lot bigger in person than Shawn, just or more conditioned and I've seen both!

Flex wheeler shot a shitload of stuff and he's still considered to be one of the greatest, levrone shot up his delts and who knows what other parts

[Bevo]

you know I was thinking same thing ,I was going to quote that with the picture as reference,milos doesn't look too shabby either there,,its like the huge guy in the middle with blown out bodyparts/shape so/so relaxed there,,and 2 guys in the corners looking like a bber should ..

Cormier should have beaten flex at the 99 O

[EspenG]

By comparison, these pics show it clearly. 1) Ronnie was bigger in the delt/traps and in the thighs (from 97 -98). These improvements gave him a totally new look. Check out the FDB from 1997. His legs are skinny there compared to a year later. As is his delts in the most muscular from 1997. All in all, his torso is tiny compared to 1998, and even more so to 1999.. His shape/dimensions are clearly not the same in 1998. In 1999 he was even bigger in those same areas. All of that change did not occur between 98 and 99 - some of the progress came between 97 and 98.

From my viewpoint, Ronnie made steady progress from 94 and onwards. The improvements from 97-98 gave him a new muscular look (not only because of condition).

[EspenG]

The 'transformation' was ongoing and evident from 1997 onwards

[EspenG]

Another comparison.
 Change is evident. Not revolutionary, but enough and in (some of)the right places. He was thicker in the torso/lats. As said, in the delts and traps. And, evidently thighs. And, also evidently in his waist and nipples. Luckily for Ronnie, he had such a tiny waist/hips in 1997 that some added thickness did not destroy his aesthetics.

I disagree with ND that the 97 version of Ronnie was 255. His torso was tiny compared to later (not that it matter)

[NarcissisticDeity]

By comparison, these pics show it clearly. 1) Ronnie was bigger in the delt/traps and in the thighs (from 97 -98). These improvements gave him a totally new look. Check out the FDB from 1997. His legs are skinny there compared to a year later. As is his delts in the most muscular from 1997. All in all, his torso is tiny compared to 1998, and even more so to 1999.. His shape/dimensions are clearly not the same in 1998. In 1999 he was even bigger in those same areas. All of that change did not occur between 98 and 99 - some of the progress came between 97 and 98.

From my viewpoint, Ronnie made steady progress from 94 and onwards. The improvements from 97-98 gave him a new muscular look (not only because of condition).

I think you're seeing what you want and using select pictures to ' prove ' it , all of these pics are from 97. Does he look better in 1998? Absolutely is he dimensionally bigger , wider , thicker? absolutely not

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[NarcissisticDeity]

Notice the contest weight

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[Hulkster]

great comparison getbiggers crushing ND's belief that the erroneous weight of 255 was NOT correct in 1997:

fuck, he probably added 5 pounds of muscle to each QUAD, never mind everywhere else:

97 vs 99:

[Hulkster]

is he dimensionally bigger , wider , thicker? absolutely not

yes, he is, thats what everyone is showing you:

[SF1900]

At the end of the day, a prime Ronnie beats a prime Dorian. When Ronnie was in his prime, no one can touch him. I bet even Dorian would agree with this.

[Hulkster]

^check the size difference there folks.

note the quads, chest, arms and lats.

serious muscle added.

either 255 pounds is wrong in 97 or 257 is wrong in 99 and he was more like 260 something.

take your pick.

[NarcissisticDeity]

^check the size difference there folks.

note the quads, chest, arms and lats.

serious muscle added.

either 255 pounds is wrong in 97 or 257 is wrong in 99 and he was more like 260 something.

take your pick.

No one is comparing 97 to 99 you moron. he was 255 in 97 and he was soft and he was 257 in 99 obviously he got bigger than 97. No one's debating that try and stick to the subject.

[NarcissisticDeity]

yes, he is, thats what everyone is showing you:

Fuck you are retarded , I said compared to 98 , you know this as usual but you're just posting nonsense.

[dyslexic]

This thread....


Geez

[Mr.1derful]

^check the size difference there folks.

note the quads, chest, arms and lats.

serious muscle added.

either 255 pounds is wrong in 97 or 257 is wrong in 99 and he was more like 260 something.

take your pick.

How much did Ronnie weigh when he got his ass kicked by Gunter?

[SF1900]

This thread....


Geez

If ND and Hulkster met in real life, what do you think would happen? 

[andreisdaman]

If ND and Hulkster met in real life, what do you think would happen? 

probably would be some loving going on...the Ronnie vs Dorian thread was only foreplay

[SF1900]

probably would be some loving going on...the Ronnie vs Dorian thread was only foreplay

x2. I have a feeling they would be best buddies.