Author Topic: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?  (Read 29830 times)

Julio Ceasar

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2015, 02:12:17 AM »
and the reward of being a natty is NOTHING!!!

...endof thread!  ;D

BayGBM

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2015, 04:22:11 AM »
Rosie Ruiz.  LOL.  How anyone thought even for 5 minutes that this bloated pasty pig won the NYC Marathon is insane.  I love the fake grimace and fat filled thighs.

Rosie has one of the richer cheating stories.  She "wins" the Boston marathon by surreptitiously exiting the race and reentering the race near the finish line.  Boom!  And she qualified for the Boston marathon by running the NYC marathon where she exited the race... rode the subway... and reentered the race near the finish line!  Boom! 

This is another strategy a lot of cheaters use: i got away with it once... so I'll do it again.  ::)

thegamechanger

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2015, 04:32:13 AM »
When they changed balls at half-time, Brady took them apart even worse.
Aaron Rogers said he likes his over-inflated.

Everyone tries for an edge in sports, from the curve on a hockey stick, to pine tar and scuffed baseballs, greenies in the 70's (speed) and roids in the 90's (and beyond) MLB.

Wine if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat...

It has and always will be part of sports, business, politics, etc...

that's beautiful  :'(

BayGBM

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2015, 04:44:26 AM »
Simple, because they all do... They all cheat some more some less, some smarter some not, some get caught some not... It is hard to live with, it is trust me ;) not easy... You just move on with your life, it becomes part of you and it is not necessarily wrong it's just part of the game - elite, talented athletes are all on drugs.

All records are set on PEDs - welcome to reality.

P.s. My records are still not beaten ;) guess why...

You and several others (ritch, Coach, etc.) here have missed the point entirely.  You have proven that by focusing on PED and whether or not it can be definitively proven, "everyone's doing it" or arguing that the samples were tainted.  Why you have chosen to focus on this angle of it I don't know; perhaps you are feeling stung because of your own drug use?  In any case, it is not about PED.  It is about the mindset of a cheater.  Cheating can come in many forms that have nothing to do with drugs--like secretly exiting a race and reentering near the finish line.  Just a couple weeks ago a chess grandmaster was caught cheating during a tournament.  He would run to the bathroom after almost every move and use his iphone to cheat.

Chess grandmaster cheats in tournament ... from the bathroom
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/sport/chess-championship-cheating-in-bathroom/

Did he have a huge windfall waiting for him if he won?  Most cheaters are not doing it for cheers or a big payday.

BayGBM

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2015, 04:48:27 AM »
1-it's not about winning or beating the other guy, it's about being the best, no matter what, making things normal humans can't do with only genetics, training and mental force.
2-they lie because medias are filthy hypocrites. They have to do so to keep sponsors and co. and because ofc it's illegal. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

My 2 cents.

You, too, have missed the point. People cheat in board games, card games, and other simple, meaningless endeavors where the stakes are low or there are really no stakes at all.  And they are not doing it to be the best in the world or to demonstrate their training or mental force.  Where is the satisfaction in "winning" when there is virtually nothing at stake?

thegamechanger

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2015, 04:50:01 AM »
maybe they need to win at all costs.

Van_Bilderass

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2015, 06:13:38 AM »
You and several others (ritch, Coach, etc.) here have missed the point entirely.  You have proven that by focusing on PED and whether or not it can be definitively proven, "everyone's doing it" or arguing that the samples were tainted.  Why you have chosen to focus on this angle of it I don't know; perhaps you are feeling stung because of your own drug use?  In any case, it is not about PED.  It is about the mindset of a cheater.  Cheating can come in many forms that have nothing to do with drugs--like secretly exiting a race and reentering near the finish line.  Just a couple weeks ago a chess grandmaster was caught cheating during a tournament.  He would run to the bathroom after almost every move and use his iphone to cheat.

Chess grandmaster cheats in tournament ... from the bathroom
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/sport/chess-championship-cheating-in-bathroom/

Did he have a huge windfall waiting for him if he won?  Most cheaters are not doing it for cheers or a big payday.

Being a chess master gives you enormous respect, at least in som circles, I would think. A chess master is seen as very intelligent, almost in a mystical sense maybe. I don't know about the pay.

Drug use is somewhat different I would say. Even in chess using smart-drugs I would think would be seen differently than using a computer program to win. I bet they are using drugs too, many brain drugs aren't even banned anywhere.

thegamechanger

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2015, 06:31:28 AM »
what if bodybuilders would take brain drugs too and not just the biggest but also the smartest  :o :o :o

Al Doggity

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2015, 06:32:15 AM »
You, too, have missed the point.

LOL- 90% of your posts in this thread are telling people they're missing the point. They're not missing the point, obviously people have different reasons for cheating- or "cheating". There is no one size fits all answer. There is no standard "cheater's mindset". Just as people cheat in different ways, people have different reasons for cheating. Obviously, a professional athlete might be more concerned with money than some friends playing a board game who are just  interested in bragging rights.

 

Earl1972

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2015, 11:31:54 AM »
because winning while cheating is better than losing while playing by the rules

E
E

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2015, 03:22:10 PM »
Honor is simply the morality of superior men.

H. L. Mencken


tommywishbone

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2015, 04:50:26 PM »
"Win... Lose... what's the difference."
a

Antonio fella

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2015, 06:44:15 PM »
Is Bay genuinely an idiot or just trying to seem like one?

 ;D ;D
!

Parker

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2015, 06:49:25 PM »
You, too, have missed the point. People cheat in board games, card games, and other simple, meaningless endeavors where the stakes are low or there are really no stakes at all.  And they are not doing it to be the best in the world or to demonstrate their training or mental force.  Where is the satisfaction in "winning" when there is virtually nothing at stake?
Ahh, the mentality of a cheater? It's kinda like that of thief's. A thief will justify stealing from you, or anybody. And how they obtained the object, or the reasoning behind it, is always justified.

BayGBM

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2015, 07:46:41 PM »
Ahh, the mentality of a cheater? It's kinda like that of thief's. A thief will justify stealing from you, or anybody. And how they obtained the object, or the reasoning behind it, is always justified.

Congratulations, my friend.  You got it.  It was never about PED or cheating to win a big payday.  It is about the mental kernel that gives the green light to cheating (in all its forms) during a  competition and how one can still find satisfaction or revel in doing something they know is dishonest.

Equally interesting are apologists for the cheater.  We see them in the media and even see them in this thread.  They bend over backwards to justify, explain, or excuse the cheater.  
"It's not really cheating because everyone does it..."
"It's not really cheating because not doing it would put you at a disadvantage..."
"It's not really cheating because it's been happening for years..."
"It's not really cheating because he was my hero... I looked up to him..."
"It's not really cheating because blah blah blah..."

When all else fails, they resort to attacking the messenger.  Anything to avoid facing the truth.  It often seems as if there is an agreement between the cheater and his/her fans.  The cheater perpetrates and the fan agrees to play dumb, play along, or deny the facts even when the truth comes out.... Pathetic.  ::)

Parker your posts reminds me of Methyl Mike (GroinkTropin).  Remember, he had credit card debt that he decided he no longer needed to pay simply because the debt was old.  Yet he styled himself as a conservative with "morals."  In his mind, the theft was totally justified.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=309532.0

The Ugly

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2015, 11:43:23 PM »
No matter whats said here, what reasoning there is, you're going to call it "cheating". Do you think that they're the only ones "cheating"? It's an even playing field. The only thing that differs is most were targeted and eventually caught. This is for almost any sport. Baseball for example, is dying again because of testing, Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire saved baseball, Ratings for cycling have dropped because Armstrong isn't around but the reality is his whole team and other teams are doing the same the same thing. Welcome to the world of semi-professional and professional sports.


Saying you played sports is all well and good, most of us have. I played baseball in minor leagues for two years. But here's the thing. Mentally, the elites players at any level are light years ahead of us. Work ethic, genetics the whole nine yards. They would have made it with or without drugs. Most are on a level very few will understand. Thats a fact. ANYONE who is successful is on another level. I trained Mark McGwire from 2002-2004, even in retirement he still trained as if he were still playing. Bay, again. These athletes are on another level. They will do what ever it takes to be the best. If you had a $150mil I guaranfuckingtee you'd do the same thing.

McGwire, Bonds, Rose all deserve to be first round ballot picks for the HOF. If they're not then remove Babe Ruth and everyone else during that era because it was sure as fuck just as dirty back then as it is now. That goes for Football as well.

Ruth cheated?

Coach is Back!

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2015, 11:52:57 PM »
You and several others (ritch, Coach, etc.) here have missed the point entirely.  You have proven that by focusing on PED and whether or not it can be definitively proven, "everyone's doing it" or arguing that the samples were tainted.  Why you have chosen to focus on this angle of it I don't know; perhaps you are feeling stung because of your own drug use?  In any case, it is not about PED.  It is about the mindset of a cheater.  Cheating can come in many forms that have nothing to do with drugs--like secretly exiting a race and reentering near the finish line.  Just a couple weeks ago a chess grandmaster was caught cheating during a tournament.  He would run to the bathroom after almost every move and use his iphone to cheat.

Chess grandmaster cheats in tournament ... from the bathroom
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/sport/chess-championship-cheating-in-bathroom/

Did he have a huge windfall waiting for him if he won?  Most cheaters are not doing it for cheers or a big payday.

Did you notice that I included Pete Rose? Think about that.

Cleanest Natural

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2015, 12:21:24 AM »
Two things :

You are clearly not familiar with professional level sports

You do not grasp how it mentally and physically works up there

If you think professional sports are about fair play you areNAIVE


Simple Simon

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2015, 12:35:23 AM »
Two things :

You are clearly not familiar with professional level sports

You do not grasp how it mentally and physically works up there

If you think professional sports are about fair play you areNAIVE


Did you take steroids when you played tennis?

Van_Bilderass

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2015, 12:49:37 AM »
Congratulations, my friend.  You got it.  It was never about PED or cheating to win a big payday.  It is about the mental kernel that gives the green light to cheating (in all its forms) during a  competition and how one can still find satisfaction or revel in doing something they know is dishonest.

Equally interesting are apologists for the cheater.  We see them in the media and even see them in this thread.  They bend over backwards to justify, explain, or excuse the cheater.  
"It's not really cheating because everyone does it..."
"It's not really cheating because not doing it would put you at a disadvantage..."
"It's not really cheating because it's been happening for years..."
"It's not really cheating because he was my hero... I looked up to him..."
"It's not really cheating because blah blah blah..."

When all else fails, they resort to attacking the messenger.  Anything to avoid facing the truth.  It often seems as if there is an agreement between the cheater and his/her fans.  The cheater perpetrates and the fan agrees to play dumb, play along, or deny the facts even when the truth comes out.... Pathetic.  ::)

Parker your posts reminds me of Methyl Mike (GroinkTropin).  Remember, he had credit card debt that he decided he no longer needed to pay simply because the debt was old.  Yet he styled himself as a conservative with "morals."  In his mind, the theft was totally justified.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=309532.0


I get what you're saying, I do. I would've liked to compete in powerlifting but I can't do it
since it's against the rules here and there's a culture of a pretty clean sport in this particular org and country. And I won't lie and say I'm against drug use when I'm clearly not.

However, things can get murky. Sometimes drug use may be against the rules but at the same time condoned. Like my example of pro bodybuilding. IFBB says it follows the WADA code, a very strict anti-doping code. I don't think juicing in bb is cheating though. Do you?

BayGBM

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2015, 04:44:06 AM »
I get what you're saying, I do. I would've liked to compete in powerlifting but I can't do it
since it's against the rules here and there's a culture of a pretty clean sport in this particular org and country. And I won't lie and say I'm against drug use when I'm clearly not.

However, things can get murky. Sometimes drug use may be against the rules but at the same time condoned. Like my example of pro bodybuilding. IFBB says it follows the WADA code, a very strict anti-doping code. I don't think juicing in bb is cheating though. Do you?

No.  But I don't think it is a sport or a real competition either... so it's all good.  If I had to filter this through the world of bodybuilding I would point to the guys who compete in "natural" shows when they are obviously not natural.  Where is the satisfaction in "winning" a show like that?  I admit I don't get the natural circuit.  Nor do I understand guys who say they hate steroids yet hang out (for years) in bodybuilding forums.

BayGBM

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2015, 09:27:06 PM »
61-year-old runner caught cheating in Marine Corps Marathon
By Rick Maese and Kelyn Soong

An anonymous person logged on to a popular running message board last week to report a crime against fair play. The person had been searching for a name on a database of Marine Corps Marathon finishers and unwittingly came across something suspicious.

“I think I have found a serial cheater,” the message board user typed on LetsRun.com.

It was around that same time that race organizers were doing some authenticating of their own. On Oct. 25, more than 23,000 runners weaved through Washington and Northern Virginia, but when organizers combed through the times of the top finishers, the results of one man drew a bright red flag.

For 50 minutes late in the race, the 61-year-old experienced runner from Washington left no record of his progress, but he reappeared at some point and ran at least the final five to six miles.

“We don’t know where he was,” said Rick Nealis, the race director. “He was sitting on a park bench or going in the Air and Space Museum. He’s doing something for 50 minutes, but I know he’s not running the race.”

Gregory Price finished second in his age group last month with a time of 3 hours 17 minutes 47 seconds. Nealis was so certain that Price cheated that this week he purged the result from the race logs and issued a rare lifetime ban.

“You won’t see him running in the Marine Corps Marathon again,” Nealis said Thursday.

In a brief telephone interview Friday afternoon, Price admitted to shortening his marathon route in recent years and said he never entered a race with the intention of cheating.

“I messed up. There’s no reason to do that,” he said. “There’s really nothing else to say. There’s not a good explanation. I apologize to all the other runners.”

Price said he called Nealis on Friday to offer an apology. He said he had been a runner for most of his adult life, but in recent years, as his body struggled to make it 26.2 miles, he still fancied himself a marathon runner.

“I feel bad,” he said. “There’s no great back story to it. It’s just wrong. I haven’t been feeling that well, didn’t do the proper training. Now, at the end of the day, what do I have? Nothing.”

Runners train for months for a marathon, and many suffer through several failed attempts before successfully completing the grueling race. To cheat in a marathon is considered one of the sport’s most egregious sins. Perhaps most famously, a runner named Rosie Ruiz was the top woman finisher in the 1980 Boston Marathon but later was stripped of her title when race officials ruled that she didn’t complete the entire course. More recently, runners Mike Rossi and Kip Litton have been subjected to intense Internet sleuthing and scrutiny over their marathon results.

“A lot of running is about integrity and being yourself,” said Jim Hage, a two-time Marine Corps Marathon winner and a member of the race’s Hall of Fame. “The cliche is that there are no shortcuts to a marathon, and to have someone manufacture a shortcut is surprising. . . . I suppose non-runners might think it’s sort of funny and a quirky thing. Runners might take more offense because we understand more what the sport’s about, and it ain’t about shortcuts.”

In the weeks following the Marine Corps Marathon each year, race officials usually begin scouring the database and scrutinizing times posted by the top finishers, often cross-checking split times with photos that are taken along the course.

“In this case, you click on the photo, yeah, looks like a runner — 61 years old, fit, healthy black male,” Nealis said. “But then you look at the times, and you see he’s missing two mats.”

Every five kilometers and at 13.1 miles, race officials position wide rubber timing mats that register when a chip embedded on each runner’s bib passes by. So a runner who finishes the race should have nine split times between the start and the finish. Price, though, was missing times from the 25-kilometer mark, near the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial, and again at 30 kilometers, near the U.S. Botanic Garden.

But the mat at the 35-kilometer mark, not far from the Pentagon, showed that Price had resurfaced on the race course and, according to the clock, apparently had been running much faster than at any other point of the race. Jeff Gilliland, 51, crossed the finish line shortly after Price and said he had to run around Price, who was standing calmly at the finish.

“I do remember thinking it was kind of strange,” Gilliland said. “At that point, you’re pretty gassed if you’ve been running a marathon at that pace. . . . I just thought it was weird there was a guy standing there like he had just walked across the line.”

The race director explained the mats sometimes miss the chip, and it’s possible race officials would have believed the fishy finish had this been Price’s first transgression. Price, though, had competed in the Marine Corps Marathon 13 times since 1998, and his past five races in particular included suspicious results. He had competed in the race every year since 2011, and each time the mat failed to register him at the 25-kilometer and 30-kilometer marks.

“You’re telling me the chip doesn’t work in the same spot only for this guy? Every year?” Nealis said. “Either there’s some spaceship that’s beaming down something just on him or something is up.”

The race director said that from 2004 to 2009, Price also had recorded suspect results, missing a chip mat in four of the six races.

In typical years, race officials throw out 125 to 250 suspicious results. Nealis said they’re usually more casual runners chasing a bucket-list goal: either completing a marathon or qualifying for the Boston Marathon. It’s rare that officials catch a serial cheat. Nealis can remember just a couple of other cases and says he has issued just five lifetime bans and a handful of one-year suspensions. Perhaps most memorably, in 2005, about eight runners from a Toronto-based running group took a shortcut and shaved four miles off the marathon route, each earning temporary bans.

Race records indicate Price has completed — in one fashion or another — at least 20 marathons. Nealis believes Price has run 20 miles in his each of his most recent Marine Corps attempts but never the full 26.2.

The Marine Corps race doesn’t award prize money and is not among the nation’s most prestigious marathons. Nealis sees only one compelling reason for an experienced runner to cheat here: The race serves as a qualifier for the Boston Marathon. The Boston race only accepts runners who qualify with specific times in other marathons or who raise money for charity. Nealis calls the race the “holy grail of running.”

Price said he wasn’t particularly aware of his time while on the course and wasn’t specifically trying to sneak his way into the Boston Marathon, but by virtue of his 2014 Marine Corps finish, Price was entered in this year’s Boston Marathon in April. Nealis said he sent a letter this week to Boston race officials explaining the situation, and Price’s name no longer appears on a list of this year’s entrants. Boston Marathon records indicate that Price has completed the race four times since 2001.

“You never like to hear someone of being a cheater,” said Tom Grilk, executive director of the Boston Athletic Association since 2011. “It’s a situation that I don’t have any personal familiarity with, but there’s no one I respect more than Rick Nealis and all the people down there. So I have every confidence they were very careful and made the right choice.”

Nealis said Price’s recent results have been wiped from the Marine Corps record books, and he also was booted from the Marine Corps Marathon Runners Club, an honor for having completed five races. The third-place finisher in last month’s race, Wayne Lundy, has been elevated to second and David Wild to third. They both will be honored at a ceremony next month, along with the other top finishers in each age bracket.

Lundy, a 60-year-old College Park resident, said the ban was important for maintaining the sport’s values.

“I knew what my time was. [Price’s ban] doesn’t change my time. But I think it’s valid that he be banned,” Lundy said. “Running is personal improvement and personal integrity, and when someone does something like that, he cheated in the race. A lot of runners take it personally because the individual has violated something a runner may consider a sacred thing. This is something we all love doing, and you just took a dump on it.”

Nick Danger

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2015, 09:45:55 PM »
The 1988 100 meter final had at least 5 known PED users.

Carl Lewis shouldn't have been at the games because he failed 3 drug tests during the US trials.

"The sceptics felt vindicated when it was revealed in 2003 that Lewis had failed three drugs tests for stimulants during the 1988 Olympic trials."

"Under the rules of the time, he should have been banned from the Games, but the results were covered up by the United States Olympic Committee after it accepted his plea that he had innocently taken a herbal supplement."

Radical Plato

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2015, 03:56:04 AM »
I am not yet an old fossil, but when I look at people like Rosie Ruiz, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Mark Mcgwire (google them) and now Tom Brady, I feel as if I am from another era.  I know this sounds hopelessly old fashioned, but where is the satisfaction in “winning” if you know you cheated?  How can that feel good or make you feel as if you have accomplished anything?  Never mind the fans, the media, the investigative authorities, etc.  You know you cheated!  To make matters worse, when confronted instead of hanging their heads in shame and immediately taking responsibility these cheaters will stand in front of microphones indignant and lie with their last breath to insist they did not cheat.  Only when exposed with hard, irrefutable evidence do they “confess” and admit to it all.  It is not a confession if you were exposed.  And you are certainly not "sorry" for anything other than getting caught.

I played many sports while growing up, but maybe I a missing some sports minded gene that allows these folks to rationalize their cheating.  Do you understand it?  Can you explain it to me?  Some people even cheat in sports where there is no big contract or payday waiting for them.  They cheat just to "beat"  the other guy... even if it means winning dishonestly.  Where is the satisfaction in that? ???


Well, winning while so called cheating sure beats the rest of the field who didn't win and were still cheating also.  I suppose if you are going to cheat, which most athletes do, it is better to win than come second place while doing so.
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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2015, 03:57:47 AM »
fame and money?

I think that's motivating enough to cheat.