the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?

[BayGBM]

I am not yet an old fossil, but when I look at people like Rosie Ruiz, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Mark Mcgwire (google them) and now Tom Brady, I feel as if I am from another era.  I know this sounds hopelessly old fashioned, but where is the satisfaction in “winning” if you know you cheated?  How can that feel good or make you feel as if you have accomplished anything?  Never mind the fans, the media, the investigative authorities, etc.  You know you cheated!  To make matters worse, when confronted instead of hanging their heads in shame and immediately taking responsibility these cheaters will stand in front of microphones indignant and lie with their last breath to insist they did not cheat.  Only when exposed with hard, irrefutable evidence do they “confess” and admit to it all.  It is not a confession if you were exposed.  And you are certainly not "sorry" for anything other than getting caught.

I played many sports while growing up, but maybe I am missing some sports minded gene that allows these folks to rationalize their cheating.  Do you understand it?  Can you explain it to me?  Some people even cheat in sports where there is no big contract or payday waiting for them.  They cheat just to "beat"  the other guy... even if it means winning dishonestly.  Where is the satisfaction in that?

[SF1900]

If Lance Armstrong was a fitness competitor, what Tier would he be? 1, 2, or 3?

Id put him at least Tier 2, until he packed on a few more pounds.

[2Thick]

I think that when such large amounts of money are at stake on the professional (or future pro / high level amateur) major sports level, it's not at all hard to understand that people will do whatever they can to win and be the best. And many successful people competing on such high levels in sports, business, etc are so highly competitive by nature anyway.

Have you ever spoken ill of your professional competitors to a prospective client in an attempt to win their business? I sure as hell have. I'd do just about anything short of doing things that are criminal or that are specifically barred by my profession in order to get / keep what I want / need.

What I have a harder time understanding is why some will sacrifice health, promising careers, dignity, and so much more doing "whatever it takes" in activities / occupations that are far less rewarding than major sports or successful business endeavors. Striving to be a jobless pro bber rather than just a recreational lifter with a good career who treats lifting as a serious hobby (but still just a hobby) comes to mind.

[Dave D]

People are always willing to cross the line in life (think Phil Heath at the Olympia).
I really don't think sports are different than other aspects of life, they just mirror the culture; people are willing to do whatever it takes for whatever it is they want. The end justifies the means (think of all the ponzi schemes).

[Sokolsky]

Tom Brady

Fuck off, nothings been proven.

Probable this, probable that. Probable defamation lawsuit.

[Hulkotron]

Other observers noticed that Ruiz was not panting or coated in sweat, and her thighs were much flabbier and fatter than would be expected

 

[Dave D]

Fuck off, nothings been proven.

Probable this, probable that. Probable defamation lawsuit.

Let me first say I could care less, deflated balls didn't win or lose any games.  But come on dude, you really think Brady knew nothing, and had no part in it? The ball boys just took it upon themselves to deflate the balls?  For what reasons?  

Also the investigation isn't being handled like a prosecuting attorney would have to collect evidence to determine guilt, it's being handled via the NFL's discipline procedures; which it should be mentioned that Brady refused to cooperate with by not turning over emails and text records, which he is required to via league policy.

Nonetheless in convinced this stuff happens all the time AND the NFL is the one who has botched this whole issue.

[Parker]

I have to disagree with Marion Jones. She was doing what everybody else was. It's just the American mentality of "we don't use", very naive. She was thrown under the bus by her (ex) husband if I remember correctly.


But, I agree with you on what you are saying.

[Dave D]

I have to disagree with Marion Jones. She was doing what everybody else was. It's just the American mentality of "we don't use", very naive. She was thrown under the bus by her (ex) husband if I remember correctly.


But, I agree with you on what you are saying.

Parker what she did was no different than Armstrong,  Floyd Landis was the one who messed up the whole cycling program by testing positive.  I'm convinced,  more then ever, that to become elite (or even very good), at anything,  people are willing to pay whatever price is necessary;  this doesn't mean all will resort to drugs but many will, and many more will toe the line of what is considered "ethical".

The question we are asking is why? The answer is (imho) culturally we promote a win at all costs attitude.  We glorify winners, 2nd place is the first loser, blah blah blah.

[lilhawk1]

People in general are lazy.  They want it all without ever having to give it their all.  Never more so when their all is obviously never going to be enough to be a champion.  

Perhaps the only thing worth cheating is death.  And that doesn't happen often or if it does, for very long. 

Instead these people cheat life.  Their own and in doing so that of other competitors.    There are those that say "If everyone's doing it, it's not really cheating!" 

Yes it is.  And why do these people make such a claim?

There is little (if any) honor among athletes, thieves and politicians.  To that we can now add "any one".

Really?  These top level athletes are far from lazy.  They do what it takes to compete at the highest level.  Get a clue, everyone is using. 

[DroppingPlates]

It's only 'cheating' if you're the only one..

[BB]

It's only 'cheating' if you're the only one..

This.

I'm sure the money and fame play a part. But there is also an element of gamesmanship. If the majority of players are cheating or at least looking for an edge, which history has proven is a reality, then you are perfectly justified in doing the same. I'd even go so far as to say that it can be a point of pride knowing that you better than the next at that element of the game.

[Irongrip400]

Money/greed, and nothing else.

[wes]

Winning at any cost means more to some than having a guilty conscience I guess.

[Parker]

Parker what she did was no different than Armstrong,  Floyd Landis was the one who messed up the whole cycling program by testing positive.  I'm convinced,  more then ever, that to become elite (or even very good), at anything,  people are willing to pay whatever price is necessary;  this doesn't mean all will resort to drugs but many will, and many more will toe the line of what is considered "ethical".

The question we are asking is why? The answer is (imho) culturally we promote a win at all costs attitude.  We glorify winners, 2nd place is the first loser, blah blah blah.

When she admitted to it, then it all came tumbling down for her. She should have kept denying it.
The American public needs to get over their holier than thou mentality of "our athletes don't use PEDs".

[Grape Ape]

Fuck off, nothings been proven.

Probable this, probable that. Probable defamation lawsuit.

To the non-lawyer, the money quotes from the Ted Wells report suggest a mere probability that cheating occurred. But the specific terminology used by Wells actually indicates a belief that the evidence satisfies one of the most common standards used in a court of law.

“More probable than not” equates to a “preponderance of the evidence,” the standard that applies in most civil lawsuits. It means that the evidence makes it more likely than not, in the opinion of the investigator, that “New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate effort to circumvent the rules,” and that “Tom Brady . . . was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities.”

That’s a standard perhaps even higher than the one that applies to players accused of violating the Personal Conduct Policy, where “credible corroborating evidence” (even without cooperation from the alleged victim) can result in a significant suspension. Regardless, it’s enough proof on which the NFL can base punishment of a team.

“Too often, competitive violations have gone unpunished because conclusive proof of the violation was lacking,” Commissioner Roger Goodell wrote to the NFL’s Competition Committee in 2008, after the last game-integrity infraction involving the Patriots.  “I believe we should reconsider the standard of proof to be applied in such cases, and make it easier for a competitive violation to be established.”

[Thong Maniac]

oP is assuming that PED is actually cheating. Its subjective what "cheating" is. How is lasik surgery not as "cheating" as Manipulating hormone levels? Its opinion based rules

[BayGBM]

Other observers noticed that Ruiz was not panting or coated in sweat, and her thighs were much flabbier and fatter than would be expected

 

I know, right?  What kind of loser do you have to be to cheat to win a marathon?  For all but the most elite runners, the point of running 26.2 miles is to prove to yourself that you have the stamina and will to simply make it to the finish line.  Yet here she comes with her flabby fat legs wanting the wear the winner's wreath on her head knowing full well that she didn't have what it took to run a marathon much less win.  I actually feel sorry for her; she was a loser at a depth that just makes you shake your head.  It is as if she has a mental illness or something.

[Grape Ape]

oP is assuming that PED is actually cheating. Its subjective what "cheating" is. How is lasik surgery not as "cheating" as Manipulating hormone levels? Its opinion based rules

It's not subjective when there's a rule book.

[240 is Back]

my FB buddies are still in complete denial.

"brady doesn't need to cheat" became "Brady would never do that!"

"They can't PROVE Brady cheated!" has moved into "Everybody cheats!"

Teddy Bruschi is the only person left in the USA who actually believes Brady.  Anyone hear him kneepadding ol' Tommy Boy with the "tom has integrity, and men with integrity don't cheat".   Honestly, I think he was trolling Tom.   Like, "only a piece of dog shit would cheat and lie about it, and we all know Tom isn't a piece of dog shit" when there is plain evidence Tom knew ball pressure, and tom participated in cover/up.

[Al Doggity]

I played many sports while growing up, but maybe I a missing some sports minded gene that allows these folks to rationalize their cheating.  Do you understand it?  Can you explain it to me?  

Playing sports as a kid is way different than playing sports at an elite level. I played football from little league through college and by the time I was a freshman in college, it was clear that "cheating" just meant getting caught. You don't even have to be an athlete, just watch professional sports to see calculated rule-breaking is par for the course. It's not some new phenomenon and it's not concentrated among a few bad apples.

[Grape Ape]

my FB buddies are still in complete denial.

"brady doesn't need to cheat" became "Brady would never do that!"

"They can't PROVE Brady cheated!" has moved into "Everybody cheats!"

Teddy Bruschi is the only person left in the USA who actually believes Brady.  Anyone hear him kneepadding ol' Tommy Boy with the "tom has integrity, and men with integrity don't cheat".   Honestly, I think he was trolling Tom.   Like, "only a piece of dog shit would cheat and lie about it, and we all know Tom isn't a piece of dog shit" when there is plain evidence Tom knew ball pressure, and tom participated in cover/up.

The best is they talk themselves into a corner:

"It doesn't make a difference in the outcome"

"Everyone does it anyway"

It doesn't make a difference, but all teams do it?

[BayGBM]

Let me first say I could care less, deflated balls didn't win or lose any games.  But come on dude, you really think Brady knew nothing, and had no part in it? The ball boys just took it upon themselves to deflate the balls?  For what reasons?  

Also the investigation isn't being handled like a prosecuting attorney would have to collect evidence to determine guilt, it's being handled via the NFL's discipline procedures; which it should be mentioned that Brady refused to cooperate with by not turning over emails and text records, which he is required to via league policy.

Nonetheless in convinced this stuff happens all the time AND the NFL is the one who has botched this whole issue.

People like Sokolsky enable the cheaters. They perform mental cartwheels to try it make it seem like the guy was not cheating.  I remember on another board back in 2013 when Aaron Hernandez was initially arrested, I laid out a simple fact pattern based on news reports and one of the posters (I think it was Squadfather) tired to excuse it all as media hype and people being jealous of Aaron's NFL contract.  Um, yeah.  Well, we now know how that line of thinking worked out.  

[BayGBM]

I have to disagree with Marion Jones. She was doing what everybody else was. It's just the American mentality of "we don't use", very naive. She was thrown under the bus by her (ex) husband if I remember correctly.


But, I agree with you on what you are saying.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?  Marion Jones was cheating plain and simple.  When she was called out her defense was not "I'm doing what everyone else is doing..."  She denied it with her penultimate breath.  Only after being boxed in and humiliated in a legal proceeding did she tearfully admit to cheating and apologize.

[BayGBM]

I have to give this guy (and his attorney) credit for balls.  He gets hauled before Congress to testify about his cheating and his spoon fed line is "I'm not here to talk about the past...."  Remember that BS?