how important are pre- and post-workout meals?

[cephissus]

I never believed in this stuff, but the past few days I've been eating some sugary foods about half an hour before I work out.  The difference in muscle sensation, pump, sweating, heart rate, physicap appearance post workout (vascularity, striations), and enjoyableness of the workout has been immense...

For the past year or so, I've done fasted workouts / runs in the morning... I don't think I'm ever going back.  Maybe it only makes a difference if you're very lean?

Not sure about post workout yet, but some pwo carbs/protein seemed to stabilize my mental state, today at least.

How important do you think pre/post workout meals are?  What should they consist of?  Timing?

[kevthekid]

High glycemic carbs pre and post workout are the only times you should eat them (White rice, rice cakes, pop tarts etc) which is why you get that feeling. Rest of the day stick to carbs low glycemic such as brown rice

[Van_Bilderass]

I don't think it's a good idea to train fasted and/or wait several hours after lifting weights before eating.
Building actual muscle protein is a slow process but I believe feedings around workouts help over time.
Training hard without eating leads to muscle breakdown, doesn't make much sense to me, taking advantage of
the increased protein synthesis after workouts by eating is logical and supported by all the science.

[Van_Bilderass]

High glycemic carbs pre and post workout are the only times you should eat them (White rice, rice cakes, pop tarts etc) which is why you get that feeling. Rest of the day stick to carbs low glycemic such as brown rice

The GI of carb sources is pretty irrelevant for many reasons imo. For example, rarely do people eat carbs in isolation, the GI doesn't apply with mixed meals anymore.

[pellius]

I don't think it's a good idea to train fasted and/or wait several hours after lifting weights before eating.
Building actual muscle protein is a slow process but I believe feedings around workouts help over time.
Training hard without eating leads to muscle breakdown, doesn't make much sense to me, taking advantage of
the increased protein synthesis after workouts by eating is logical and supported by all the science.

That's why Milos recommended high glycemic carbs and amino acids WHILE training. Feed the muscles while it is being broken down and blood supply to those muscles are at it's highest.

Oh, and don't forget the insulin preworkout to help ram those nutrients in while training.

[Dave D]

Post workout you have a 30 minute anabolic window,  if you don't get your protein in your workout was a complete waste.

[pellius]

The GI of carb sources is pretty irrelevant for many reasons imo. For example, rarely do people eat carbs in isolation, the GI doesn't apply with mixed meals anymore.

Taking, say, pure sugar, bypasses the digestive process which may be useful while training. After all, all carbs are broken down into sugar so sugar is essentially predigested carbs. The same with protein/amino acids.

http://www.ergo-log.com/peptopro.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/musclefibresgatorade.html

"Athletes who want to experiment with their protein intake during a training session probably won’t notice anything if they use ordinary proteins. It takes too long for the digestive system to break down the protein into pieces that are small enough to enter the bloodstream. But you could try pre-digested amino acids in a preparation like PeptoPro."

[Van_Bilderass]

That's why Milos recommended high glycemic carbs and amino acids WHILE training. Feed the muscles while it is being broken down and blood supply to those muscles are at it's highest.

Oh, and don't forget the insulin preworkout to help ram those nutrients in while training.

There's actually been studies showing pre-workout amino feeding is better vs post-workout.
Milos' idea does make sense. He doesn't get much credit for his idea (maybe not his idea entirely but he popularized it) although
many other gurus do insulin this way today.

[pellius]

There's actually been studies showing pre-workout amino feeding is better vs post-workout.
Milos' idea does make sense. He doesn't get much credit for his idea (maybe not his idea entirely but he popularized it) although
many other gurus do insulin this way today.

His reasoning was that only during training is when you get so much blood supply into the muscle. Thus you want that supply to be nutrient rich. He does also recommended preworkout amino acids/sugars along with the steady supply during the training session. Of course this is with the use of insulin.

[Van_Bilderass]

Taking, say, pure sugar bypasses the digestive process which may be useful while training. After all, all carbs are broken down into sugar so sugar is essentially predigested carbs. The same with protein/amino acids.

http://www.ergo-log.com/peptopro.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/musclefibresgatorade.html

"Athletes who want to experiment with their protein intake during a training session probably won’t notice anything if they use ordinary proteins. It takes too long for the digestive system to break down the protein into pieces that are small enough to enter the bloodstream. But you could try pre-digested amino acids in a preparation like PeptoPro."

It's not entirely certain these proteins are "faster" in reality. But in any case, the GI is pretty useless. A carb doesn't make you gain fat no matter how "fast" it is... it's all about the total energy balance.  Slower carbs may be better for satiety but that's it.

I remember a study from way back where whey isolate was faster than hydrolyzed whey.

[pellius]

It's not entirely certain these proteins are "faster" in reality. But in any case, the GI is pretty useless. A carb doesn't make you gain fat no matter how "fast" it is... it's all about the total energy balance.  Slower carbs may be better for satiety but that's it.

Wouldn't it make intuitive sense that amino acids absorb faster, as well as sugar, because they are absorb right into the blood stream.

Certainly hydrolyzed protein is absorbed faster than, say, casein. And wouldn't it make sense to get the energy from sugar when you really need it (while training) and using insulin.

Of course none of this has anything to do with whether or not you get fat. That's a completely separate issue. Anybody can lose weight on jelly beans and ice cream and gain weight eating oats and chicken breast.

[Rambone]

Anabolic window of peace + milos magic shakes + slin = gainz

Nuff said queers

[Van_Bilderass]

Wouldn't it make intuitive sense that amino acids absorb faster, as well as sugar, because they are absorb right into the blood stream.

Certainly hydrolyzed protein is absorbed faster than, say, casein. And wouldn't it make sense to get the energy from sugar when you really need it (while training) and using insulin.

Of course none of this has anything to do with whether or not you get fat. That's a completely separate issue. Anybody can lose weight on jelly beans and ice cream and gain weight eating oats and chicken breast.

It does make sense. I was commenting on the post above where kevthekid said you should't consume fast carbs at any other time than around the workout. Plenty of ripped guys ate white rice at all meals.

Though I'm not certain hydrolyzed protein or free aminos are faster than say whey isolate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2761917/#!po=0.675676

[ritch]

Anabolic window of peace + milos magic shakes + slin = gainz

Nuff said queers

LOL!
Not even getting into this one, hell no...

[Rambone]

LOL!
Not even getting into this one, hell no...

Think it's all over complicated. Throw the glycemic index out the fuckin window is step one IMO. I shoot for a daily fiber goal of 50+ grams. A potato eaten with some chicken and veggies isn't going to spike my damn insulin. Even if you're trying to spike your insulin as a natty with a ton of dextrose, you're not going to reach super physiological levels like you would with drugs. Just like nattty test boosters don't get you to that super physiological level hence don't do jack shit in terms of muscle growth.

[ritch]

Think it's all over complicated. Throw the glycemic index out the fuckin window is step one IMO. I shoot for a daily fiber goal of 50+ grams. A potato eaten with some chicken and veggies isn't going to spike my damn insulin

true.

[pellius]

It does make sense. I was commenting on the post above where kevthekid said you should't consume fast carbs at any other time than around the workout. Plenty of ripped guys ate white rice at all meals.

Though I'm not certain hydrolyzed protein or free aminos are faster than say whey isolate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2761917/#!po=0.675676

Perhaps not hydrolyzed protein but surely amino acids. I mean, doesn't all protein eventually get broken down into amino acids which is the form the body actually utilizes? Amino acids is to protein what sugar is to carbohydrates.
With amino acids you skip the step of breaking down the protein to amino acids.

[pellius]

Partial explanation by Milos along with a link to the full interview.


http://cleanhealth.com.au/interview-former-ifbb-pro-milos-sarcev/


So here is rationale behind it. Men have about 5L of blood and women have about 4L distributed all over the body which is constantly circulating around. In a state of rest at maximum about 10 -12 % of that blood finds its way in to our skeletal muscles, as there is no real physiological demand at the time of a low physical activity period. However, when we become active, blood is sent to our working muscles… and that increased blood flow to exercising muscles (Hyperemia) can achieve an astonishing 60% increase in blood flow or more during weight training. This happens ONLY during the workout!

So as my father suggested, if I supply all the necessary anabolic nutrients in a pre-digested form (e.g; ATP, glucose, amino acids etc) into the blood stream right before training and then continue delivering more of the same nutrients during my training session whilst raising the most anabolic hormone in our body – insulin – I will create an immediate and maximal anabolic environment.

So instead of losing nutrients (protein degradation or catabolism) we are creating a greater nutritional uptake by our muscle cells (protein synthesis or anabolism) and simultaneously preventing anti-catabolism… everything we need to great the maximal results we are after. So we need to remember that we only have this opportunity during training, not before or after as blood will not be in the muscle to this extent.
 

[benchmstr]

I never believed in this stuff, but the past few days I've been eating some sugary foods about half an hour before I work out.  The difference in muscle sensation, pump, sweating, heart rate, physicap appearance post workout (vascularity, striations), and enjoyableness of the workout has been immense...

For the past year or so, I've done fasted workouts / runs in the morning... I don't think I'm ever going back.  Maybe it only makes a difference if you're very lean?

Not sure about post workout yet, but some pwo carbs/protein seemed to stabilize my mental state, today at least.

How important do you think pre/post workout meals are?  What should they consist of?  Timing?

There is a lot of truth to this...Whenever im single digit bodyfat I always use a peri-workout...usually mag-10 from biotest..I know its not really designed for peri but I like it...but that the only thing ill have around my workout...

bench

[Van_Bilderass]

Perhaps not hydrolyzed protein but surely amino acids. I mean, doesn't all protein eventually get broken down into amino acids which is the form the body actually utilizes? Amino acids is to protein what sugar is to carbohydrates.
With amino acids you skip the step of breaking down the protein to amino acids.

I'm too lazy to go look, but I would guess peptide proteins are faster than free form aminos.
Glucose aka dextrose, which is what we have in our blood, is not as fast a carb as some complex carbs,
so it doesn't always work as you would assume.

[Go 4 It]

I do lean protein (egg whites) pre work out with 3-4 bananas and egg whites again post workout with white rice and spinach.

[Weedlejuice]

I never believed in this stuff, but the past few days I've been eating some sugary foods about half an hour before I work out.  The difference in muscle sensation, pump, sweating, heart rate, physicap appearance post workout (vascularity, striations), and enjoyableness of the workout has been immense...

For the past year or so, I've done fasted workouts / runs in the morning... I don't think I'm ever going back.  Maybe it only makes a difference if you're very lean?

Not sure about post workout yet, but some pwo carbs/protein seemed to stabilize my mental state, today at least.

How important do you think pre/post workout meals are?  What should they consist of?  Timing?

in terms of meal timing protein is important to spread out through out the day since amino acid's cant be stored for later use like fat or glucose, use it or lose it.

i like to keep carbs around training starting with my meal before training and then spreading out whatever fits into my goal throughout the rest of my day.

protein alone is enough to stimulate muscle growth or prevent muscle wasting in a deficit, protein + carbs gives you a small increase in nutrient delivery (which imo is important during post workout) that some may say isn't worth the effort but i know plenty of poor guys who wonder why they have no money when they aren't capable of saving pennies.

I'd make the most out of every minuet decision when it comes to body building because it all add's up over time when implemented together, the majority of people telling you otherwise are people that have 0 qualification's within the field to be telling you any better and have no results to back up their claims to begin with.

[Nails]

as important as ball sacks on Bruce Jenner

[Rudee]

I do lean protein (egg whites) pre work out with 3-4 bananas and egg whites again post workout with white rice and spinach.

I used to eat a similar post-workout meal (3 bananas and some rice).   But then I read Lyle Mcdonald mention that many people take in more carbs post workout than they really need to replenish glycogen used. According to Lyle Mcdonald, for every 2 work sets (assuming a set length of 30-45 seconds) you need 5 grams of carbohydrate to replenish the glycogen used.  So if you did a workout containing 24 work sets, you’d only require about 60 extra grams (24 sets * 5 grams/2 sets = 60 grams) of carbohydrate to replace the glycogen used.   I followed this advice and reduced  my post workout carbs, limiting it to just 3 bananas, and omitting the rice completely, and I saw better results in terms of fat loss.   

[cephissus]

There is a lot of truth to this...Whenever im single digit bodyfat I always use a peri-workout...usually mag-10 from biotest..I know its not really designed for peri but I like it...but that the only thing ill have around my workout...

bench

Thanks for the reply.  You mentioned recently biking, working out, then eating two hours later -- so I take it you're not single digit at the moment, and you would have some peri-workout food if you were?