Author Topic: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful  (Read 16274 times)

Rami

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2015, 04:12:16 AM »
It's supposed to be painful. The whole concept behind breaking wrists, elbows, shoulders etc, is that you cause the opponent incapacitating pain and/or damage.

Take notice how his opponents are actually very good at moving in ways to avoid these injuries for as long as possible, and of cause Seagal is only demonstrating here so they are let up, and not killed/hurt, but yes you are right that it is probably painful.

Very impressive martial art.

Donny

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2015, 04:24:44 AM »
It's supposed to be painful. The whole concept behind breaking wrists, elbows, shoulders etc, is that you cause the opponent incapacitating pain and/or damage.

Take notice how his opponents are actually very good at moving in ways to avoid these injuries for a long as possible, and of cause Seagal is only demonstrating here so they are let up, and not killed/hurt, but yes you are right that it is probably painful.

Very impressive martial art.
I wrote this before but i remember my first "encounter" with a very respected Aikido Master in Germany. Reinhard was an older man i think about 60 at the time when i met him. He was a direct student of Saito Sensei in Iwama. Very short , hard old school. i walked into his dojo in Hannover, he trained Sundays in the Police school. I said i wanted to learn joint locks. He was quick in bringing me to my knees with Nikyo. The pain was unreal. A very respected man in Germany. His Aikido was straight to the point and he said to me, "we must controll the aggressor". If you meet a good Master of Aikido then you will understand. I have good memories of my Training with him.

pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2015, 04:25:08 AM »
people look at the way they train in Aikido... they think itīs soft. there are so many factors and principles that i could write a book. you know itīs like Bench pressing, even although a simple move you can do it wrong in many ways. Aikido is about Sabaki.. body movement. Picture a childs spinning top, spins on an Axis, when it comes in contact with an object it propels it...away using centrifugal force. I can only say that in japan Aikido and Kendo are for people who understand.

Show me one, just one, pure Aikidoka, that can actually fight and willing to prove it.

Spinning top? Are you kidding? When it comes into contact with the back of my hand it flies off the table.

Try spinning around in a real fight? You'll just get dizzy and punched in the face.

I heard all that "one who understands" mystical balonie all my life training in  martial arts and wanting to win fights. That's what I liked about the Gracies. No bowing praying, Katas, meditation... nonsense. Just training. And whenever discussion came up about what was useful in a fight they -- we -- would just say, "Well, lets try it out. Lets fight. No hard feelings. Lets just test it out for real."

Some took up the challenge some didn't. Many a martial art demonstration and lectures were liven up when one of the Gracies (as they were trying to promote their martial art) simply challenged the speaker to fight like they did in Brasil.

Rorion Gracie at one of these demonstration keeping it real.



 

Donny

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2015, 04:28:03 AM »
Show me one, just one, pure Aikidoka, that can actually fight and willing to prove it.

Spinning top? Are you kidding? When it comes into contact with the back of my hand it flies off the table.

Try spinning around in a real fight? You'll just get dizzy and punched in the face.

I heard all that "one who understands" mystical balonie all my life training in  martial arts and wanting to win fights. That's what I liked about the Gracies. No bowing praying, Katas, meditation... nonsense. Just training. And whenever discussion came up about what was useful in a fight they -- we -- would just say, "Well, lets try it out. Lets fight. No hard feelings. Lets just test it out for real."

Some took up the challenge some didn't. Many a martial art demonstration and lectures were liven up when one of the Gracies (as they were trying to promote their martial art) simply challenged the speaker to fight like they did in Brasil.

Rorion Gracie at one of these demonstration keeping it real.



 
I think you have a lot to learn.

pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2015, 04:37:25 AM »
It's supposed to be painful. The whole concept behind breaking wrists, elbows, shoulders etc, is that you cause the opponent incapacitating pain and/or damage.

Take notice how his opponents are actually very good at moving in ways to avoid these injuries for a long as possible, and of cause Seagal is only demonstrating here so they are let up, and not killed/hurt, but yes you are right that it is probably painful.

Very impressive martial art.

I meant "painful" as in watching Seagal try to move. He's so fat, stiff and out of shape that he looks in pain just walking.

I remember telling my Aikido instructor that the moves weren't working for me in real life. When I try to throw people like I see the Black Belts do and like we do in training I can't budge any body.

So the instructor took me through the movement. When he got to the point where he tried to throw me he said, "Roll."

I said, "What?"
He said, "Roll?"
"But aren't you suppose to throw me first?"
He repeated again with a bit more impatience, "Roll."
So I rolled as stood over me in triump.
He then said to me, "Don't ever be afraid to roll."

Mind you, I'm like 8 or 9 years old. So I tell him, "Ah, I see. The guy I fought with and the guys I try to train and practice with don't know how to roll."

He then said to me, "You should bring them to this dojo and we will teach them."

Wait until I tell the story about when I asked my instructor how come in Aikido we never learn or practice how to punch.

Donny

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2015, 04:43:11 AM »
There are Atemi in Aikido, to break his concentration.. to execute the technique. Look at Daito Ryu the Atemi waza is more direct. Aikido comes from Daito Ryu, many principles apply. Like i wrote you need to understand.

pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2015, 04:45:38 AM »
I think you have a lot to learn.

This why I liked having these conversations in person. This is the time when I would just say, "Well, lets fight." I really want to see if you have anything to teach me. No animosity. No hard feelings. I'm here to learn. If I win I've learned nothing. If I lose then you would have taught me a very valuable lesson.

In fact, that's how I started with the Gracies. I fought 135 pound Royler Gracie and got my right elbow popped. I didn't even know at the time what was even happened until it happened. Royler couldn't speak English much at the time so Royce, who was watching, told me, "You didn't tap." I just said, "What's tap? I didn't even know what he was doing."

Pity. But I am willing to bet that growing up in Hawaii I got into more real fist fights, winning some losing some, by the time I finished the sixth grade than you have had in your entire life.

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2015, 04:53:10 AM »
This why I liked having these conversations in person. This is the time when I would just say, "Well, lets fight." I really want to see if you have anything to teach me. No animosity. No hard feelings. I'm here to learn. If I win I've learned nothing. If I lose then you would have taught me a very valuable lesson.

In fact, that's how I started with the Gracies. I fought 135 pound Royler Gracie and got my right elbow popped. I didn't even know at the time what was even happened until it happened. Royler couldn't speak English much at the time so Royce, who was watching, told me, "You didn't tap." I just said, "What's tap? I didn't even know what he was doing."

Pity. But I am willing to bet that growing up in Hawaii I got into more real fist fights, winning some losing some, by the time I finished the sixth grade than you have had in your entire life.
yes Kokyu nage is very difficult to understand. I mean no disrespect but you do not understand.

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2015, 04:58:34 AM »
yes Kokyu nage is very difficult to understand. I mean no disrespect but you do not understand.


You cant be serious with this shit.
who's going to roll about like that and play ball in real life?
Sure, his actions might make someone release their grip but they sure wont try and keep clinging on while he casually throws them on the floor

pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2015, 05:00:53 AM »
There are Atemi in Aikido, to break his concentration.. to execute the technique. Look at Daito Ryu the Atemi waza is more direct. Aikido comes from Daito Ryu, many principles apply. Like i wrote you need to understand.

I'll only understand an Aikido master if he kicks my ass. It has never happened. Of course I only fought two instructors and one was a girl.

With the man I didn't even have to take him to the ground. I just punched him in the face.

With the girl I just said, "Ready?" Then walked over to her, grabbed her and cradle her like a baby, laid her gently on the ground, mounted her and crossed choked her. She took up BJJ the next day.

For some reason I was obsessed with wanting to a good fighter. I don't know why. It couldn't have been because I was bullied because it started before I even entered Kindergarten. If there was any use and real life effectiveness to Aikido as it is currently taught I would have stuck with it. Even as a preteen I realized it was useless in real life.

One of the problems is that they never test themselves in a real life encounter and believe their own lies -- until they get their ass kicked.


pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2015, 05:06:06 AM »
yes Kokyu nage is very difficult to understand. I mean no disrespect but you do not understand.


You can show me all the choreograph demonstrations you want. I grew up watching and believing them.

I really mean no disrespect but I would so like to fight you. I want you to teach me to understand so bad. I am very sincere about this. I've had these types of discussions so many times. It was so liberating when the Gracies taught me that it was all right to actually fight. None of this "never use your deadly knowledge unless under extreme life or death circumstances."

With all the spiritually involved in traditional martial arts the bottom line is that a martial art is not a martial art if you can't fight.

Donny

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2015, 05:06:15 AM »
I'll only understand an Aikido master if he kicks my ass. It has never happened. Of course I only fought two instructors and one was a girl.

With the man I didn't even have to take him to the ground. I just punched him in the face.

With the girl I just said, "Ready?" Then walked over to her, grabbed her and cradle her like a baby, laid her gently on the ground, mounted her and crossed choked her. She took up BJJ the next day.

For some reason I was obsessed with wanting to a good fighter. I don't know why. It couldn't have been because I was bullied because it started before I even entered Kindergarten. If there was any use and real life effectiveness to Aikido as it is currently taught I would have stuck with it. Even as a preteen I realized it was useless in real life.

One of the problems is that they never test themselves in a real life encounter and believe their own lies -- until they get their ass kicked.


what is Kokju Nage? lets talk about Judo, you know the High grade Kata?

Rami

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2015, 05:08:38 AM »
You cant be serious with this shit.
who's going to roll about like that and play ball in real life?
Sure, his actions might make someone release their grip but they sure wont try and keep clinging on while he casually throws them on the floor

It's only for demonstration, the reason you don't see these techniques being used to their full in competition is because they are banned from professional MMA organizations.

Donny

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2015, 05:10:09 AM »
You can show me all the choreograph demonstrations you want. I grew up watching and believing them.

I really mean no disrespect but I would so like to fight you. I want you to teach me to understand so bad. I am very sincere about this. I've had these types of discussions so many times. It was so liberating when the Gracies taught me that it was all right to actually fight. None of this "never use your deadly knowledge unless under extreme life or death circumstances."

With all the spiritually involved in traditional martial arts the bottom line is that a martial art is not a martial art if you can't fight.
come over iīll take the bait.

devilsmile

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2015, 05:11:21 AM »
I'll only understand an Aikido master if he kicks my ass. It has never happened. Of course I only fought two instructors and one was a girl.

With the man I didn't even have to take him to the ground. I just punched him in the face.

With the girl I just said, "Ready?" Then walked over to her, grabbed her and cradle her like a baby, laid her gently on the ground, mounted her and crossed choked her. She took up BJJ the next day.

For some reason I was obsessed with wanting to a good fighter. I don't know why. It couldn't have been because I was bullied because it started before I even entered Kindergarten. If there was any use and real life effectiveness to Aikido as it is currently taught I would have stuck with it. Even as a preteen I realized it was useless in real life.

One of the problems is that they never test themselves in a real life encounter and believe their own lies -- until they get their ass kicked.



for once I agree with pellius. And HOLY SHIT that video was so awkward, I feel so embarrassed for the "kuka nagaa nege koko nugu" instructor or whatever he was, how fucking embarrassing was that  :-[

pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2015, 05:13:27 AM »
what is Kokju Nage? lets talk about Judo, you know the High grade Kata?

Judo is different. Bruce Lee use to say that never will you find more out of shape "athlete" than in Martial Arts.  Serious Judoka train like athletes and are high level athletes. They include free no holds bar training and not just predetermined choreograph movements.

No one has ever become a good fighter doing katas. Katas are useless. No one has ever become a good fighter without actually practicing real fighting. Real punches, real kicks, real getting your ass tossed in the air.

pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2015, 05:21:05 AM »
It's only for demonstration, the reason you don't see these techniques being used to their full in competition is because they are banned from professional MMA organizations.

Of course, because they are too deadly. It reminds when this "Ninjitsu warrior" came into the Gracie academy and after getting choked out in minutes claimed that it was because he held back. He had "nothing against" the BJJ student he was fighting (a purple belt). Rorion just said, "Well, that's really nice of you but how about now. One of our students, a mid level student just kicked your ass in front of your students. He signed a waiver. You can do anything you want. You came to us to prove yourself."

The Ninjitsu master went through some psyching up routine and did a little growl and went at it again. He again got choked unconscious within minutes.

Maybe these guys are really the most deadly fighters in the world.  But it's useless and pointless if they never fight.

pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2015, 05:24:07 AM »
come over iīll take the bait.

You say that because you know it will never happen. I'm supposed to fly to London from Hawaii just to kick your ass.

Donny, seriously, how many real street fights have you been in in your life and when was the last one? How often during the course of a week do you actually train in martial arts. I don't mean Katas and shadow boxing but actually mixing it up with men of all sized and all ages?

Donny

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2015, 05:28:36 AM »
Judo is different. Bruce Lee use to say that never will you find more out of shape "athlete" than in Martial Arts.  Serious Judoka train like athletes and are high level athletes. They include free no holds bar training and not just predetermined choreograph movements.

No one has ever become a good fighter doing katas. Katas are useless. No one has ever become a good fighter without actually practicing real fighting. Real punches, real kicks, real getting your ass tossed in the air.
so you donīt know Kime no Kata or Goshin Jutsu Kata? Katame no kata ... the forms of grappling ?

Donny

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2015, 05:32:24 AM »
Tomiki was a Master of Judo and Aikido. He used Kata too. look at his forms of Kata. Kata is important.

pellius

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2015, 05:37:44 AM »
for once I agree with pellius. And HOLY SHIT that video was so awkward, I feel so embarrassed for the "kuka nagaa nege koko nugu" instructor or whatever he was, how fucking embarrassing was that  :-[

Holy shit! I just realized the ref is wearing an HCK t-shirt. HCK stands for the very underwhelming "Howard Combat Kimonos". He is one of my best friends and started BJJ about the same time I did in the early 1990s. He train several times a week for years. I remember when he said that he wanted to get out of the real estate biz and make competition gis. We use to train in his warehouse and garage surrounded by boxes of gis. Randy Couture was the first athlete he sponsored.

Small world. Just brought back some fond memories. Now I'm in a good mood so I won't start any shit with you -- for now.

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2015, 05:42:27 AM »
so you donīt know Kime no Kata or Goshin Jutsu Kata? Katame no kata ... the forms of grappling ?

theory doesn't translate into actual fighting

to become a good fighter you have to fight

its that simple
T

devilsmile

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2015, 05:46:41 AM »
Now I'm in a good mood so I won't start any shit with you -- for now.

Suck a dick, straight up like that :D !

Donny

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2015, 05:47:06 AM »
theory doesn't translate into actual fighting

to become a good fighter you have to fight

its that simple
I donīt think you understand that the techniques are in the Kata? as for on the mat fighting i have enough experience i can assure you.

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Re: Akido, Steven Seagal, painful
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2015, 05:51:05 AM »
I donīt think you understand that the techniques are in the Kata? as for on the mat fighting i have enough experience i can assure you.

im telling you from years of actual fighting experience

that all the knowledge in the world means shit

when the fighting starts

why do you think fighters spar for hours and hours on end?
T