Failure: yes or no?

[cephissus]

Do you only consider 'work sets' those which you take to 'failure'?

Recently, I've been working up to a couple top sets 'to failure', but then backing off and doing the bulk of my volume at a lighter weight, which feels fatiguing but isn't particularly 'hard'.  I stop when the reps get a little slow.

I feel these later, submaximal sets might be a lot more beneficial.  Working out this way certainly makes me feel better after the lift, so far anyway.

I'm starting to think the 'failure sets' might not be helpful at all, but if I leave them out altogether, I worry about 'lifting light'.

Anyone think its a good idea to get a lot of volume in on 'easier' sets?

[ritch]

I've tried to do something similar to what you're saying but it always ended up being too much. I am very fragile though when it comes to overtraining....

[Henda]

Will always pick 3 sets of 5 over one set to failure in the 8 to 12 range.
Less soreness, heavier weight moved for more total reps and easier too.

Took years to get out of the one set to failure shit. Tried it again recently and it makes life out of the gym too miserable especially if you have a physical job.

[_aj_]

I usually get into my "work sets" fairly quickly and take each set to more or less failure. I say "more or less" because I am working out alone and I don't want to actually fail, as that might be a problem. I usually go to the point where I am just barely get that last rep out.

[Van_Bilderass]

Depends on what you mean by failure as everyone has a different idea of failure.

It also depends on how much "grind" you need on that last rep to finish it. Is it 2 seconds or 8 seconds?

Then there's the exercise - is it a deadlift or a rope pushdown? Not equally taxing obviously.

[cephissus]

Depends on what you mean by failure as everyone has a different idea of failure.

It also depends on how much "grind" you need on that last rep to finish it. Is it 2 seconds or 8 seconds?

Then there's the exercise - is it a deadlift or a rope pushdown? Not equally taxing obviously.

Great points.  There are so many ways to 'cheat' yourself out of failure, into another rep or two.  The 'lighter sets' I'm talking about, I keep the weight moving -- I stop on the first rep that slows substantially.

[K A N N I B A L]

No on most sets.
I believe total volume and density is more important than hitting failure, & if I push every set to failure theres too much drop off in reps set to set
E.g. Taken to failure
Set 1: 100x12
Set 2: 100x9
Set 3: 100x7
Set 4: 100x5-6
Set 5: 100 X5
Total volume: 100x39

If i used the same weight and stopped at 10 reps i should get at least 3 sets of 10, one of 9, and a last of 8, total volume 100x47, or approx 20-25% more reps with the same weight, in the same amount of time.

Have definitely found this more productive than blasting every set to failure like i did for years

[Thong Maniac]

No on most sets.
I believe total volume and density is more important than hitting failure, & if I push every set to failure theres too much drop off in reps set to set
E.g. Taken to failure
Set 1: 100x12
Set 2: 100x9
Set 3: 100x7
Set 4: 100x5-6
Set 5: 100 X5
Total volume: 100x39

If i used the same weight and stopped at 10 reps i should get at least 3 sets of 10, one of 9, and a last of 8, total volume 100x47, or approx 20-25% more reps with the same weight, in the same amount of time.

Have definitely found this more productive than blasting every set to failure like i did for years

That was NOT explained well, still lost

[K A N N I B A L]

That was NOT explained well, still lost

Short version,  if i were to push to failure every set, there'd be a large drop of in reps for each subsequent set.
Whereas keeping a rep or two in the tank each set allows you to repeat the same amount of reps or a lot closer to it, for subsequent sets.

Total volume would be significantly greater in a workout taken just short of failure each set.
More volume with the same weight in the same amount of time makes for a more productive workout .

No other athletes come even close to hitting failure in their training

[BigRo]

according to the high intensity crowd total volume means nothing compared to going to failure and beyond.

[oldtimer1]

Training to failure is a tool and shouldn't be your main training protocol. If you trained to failure you would have to train with low sets, something like one work set to a max of two. Let's say you're working chest. Maybe one non taxing warm up set for each exercise which I won't list in the chest training example. Below is the routine for work sets.

Flat bench 2 sets of 6 reps to failure
Incline bench 2 x 6
Flat flies 2 x 10

Actually if you went balls to the wall to failure till you're blue in the face one set would be all you could do because the second set would be less reps than your first.

Intensity has been the key point of discussion with HIT religious followers. If intensity was the magic bullet of muscle growth wouldn't we all be better off training with sets of one rep? Something like four sets of one rep for every exercise? That would be the most intense training we could do. I know that sounds wacky but I'm making a point.  In training we have many theories and few facts. If there were a set of training facts we would all be training using the same exact routine barring injuries for optimal scientific advancement of muscle growth. There isn't.

Many times I feel a bodybuilder's muscle outside of pharmaceutical help is the result of for lack of a better term muscular endurance training. That's not to be confused with cardio endurance but a form of strength training that isn't concerned with single rep maxes or even low rep maxes. It's getting "stronger" through volume developing a greater capacity to perform volume. Bill Pearl has stated many times that you shouldn't train to failure. Let's call a spade a spade. If you truly took all of your sets to positive failure where you couldn't get another rep if someone was pointing a gun at your head you would burn out from training in 3 to 4 weeks needing time off due to physical and mental stress.  

Think about this example. What runner ever except a beginner would train with the to failure protocol every time he trained? Could you imagine an experienced runner saying my 3 mile loop around the park I will time and my goal every training day is to beat that time?  That would be insanity and sure route to burn out. Think about power lifters and Olympic lifter in a training cycle before a meet. Do they take their sets to failure? Of course not. There is a time during their cycle where they are training balls to the wall but it isn't every workout during say a 8 week peak.

Many successful bodybuilders do something like this. Let's use the bench again. They will do 4 sets of 8.  The first set they could do 12 reps but stop at 8. After a short rest they get another 8 reps for their second set but they could have gotten 10 reps going to failure. Third set they are hurting to get 8 reps. Still they might have gotten 9 reps if they pushed on to failure. On the third set they actually take it to failure and they only get 7 reps. Many won't train like this because failure is so exhausting it would hurt the rest of their chest exercises.

Training to failure is a tool you should have in your arsenal. It shouldn't be used all the time. It shouldn't be your everyday training protocol. If training to failure is something that makes you feel psychologically successful in that you left it all in the gym  then use it with the one work set to failure method after warm up. I use that Yates type method from time to time. Few could last more than a month without a boat load of drugs taking every set to blue in the face failure.

Anyway these are few of my thoughts about training to failure.

[Thong Maniac]

Training to failure is a tool and shouldn't be your main training protocol. If you trained to failure you would have to train with low sets, something like one work set to a max of two. Let's say you're working chest. Maybe one non taxing warm up set for each exercise which I won't list in the chest training example. Below is the routine for work sets.

Flat bench 2 sets of 6 reps to failure
Incline bench 2 x 6
Flat flies 2 x 10

Actually if you went balls to the wall to failure till you're blue in the face one set would be all you could do because the second set would be less reps than your first.

Intensity has been the key point of discussion with HIT religious followers. If intensity was the magic bullet of muscle growth wouldn't we all be better off training with sets of one rep? Something like four sets of one rep for every exercise? That would be the most intense training we could do. I know that sounds wacky but I'm making a point.  In training we have many theories and few facts. If there were a set of training facts we would all be training using the same exact routine barring injuries for optimal scientific advancement of muscle growth. There isn't.

Many times I feel a bodybuilder's muscle outside of pharmaceutical help is the result of for lack of a better term muscular endurance training. That's not to be confused with cardio endurance but a form of strength training that isn't concerned with single rep maxes or even low rep maxes. It's getting "stronger" through volume developing a greater capacity to perform volume. Bill Pearl has stated many times that you shouldn't train to failure. Let's call a spade a spade. If you truly took all of your sets to positive failure where you couldn't get another rep if someone was pointing a gun at your head you would burn out from training in 3 to 4 weeks needing time off due to physical and mental stress.  

Think about this example. What runner ever except a beginner would train with the to failure protocol every time he trained? Could you imagine an experienced runner saying my 3 mile loop around the park I will time and my goal every training day is to beat that time?  That would be insanity and sure route to burn out. Think about power lifters and Olympic lifter in a training cycle before a meet. Do they take their sets to failure? Of course not. There is a time during their cycle where they are training balls to the wall but it isn't every workout during say a 8 week peak.

Many successful bodybuilders do something like this. Let's use the bench again. They will do 4 sets of 8.  The first set they could do 12 reps but stop at 8. After a short rest they get another 8 reps for their second set but they could have gotten 10 reps going to failure. Third set they are hurting to get 8 reps. Still they might have gotten 9 reps if they pushed on to failure. On the third set they actually take it to failure and they only get 7 reps. Many won't train like this because failure is so exhausting it would hurt the rest of their chest exercises.

Training to failure is a tool you should have in your arsenal. It shouldn't be used all the time. It shouldn't be your everyday training protocol. If training to failure is something that makes you feel psychologically successful in that you left it all in the gym  then use it with the one work set to failure method after warm up. I use that Yates type method from time to time. Few could last more than a month without a boat load of drugs taking every set to blue in the face failure.

Anyway these are few of my thoughts about training to failure.

Great post. Ive always been a volume dude but ive been training the TUT method like 40-50 seconds per set till failure, just one exercise and one super light warm up. I get about 2 working sets to failure. Then im done, go on to another Bp. Ergo in the chem section talked in detail about. I really like it in terms of not spending my life in the gym. A quick cardio session and then one chest. One bi. One tri and one delt to failure then im outta there

[cephissus]

Thanks for the detailed response oldtimer, but I feel like I'm in the twilight zone when I read posts like that.  I can do set after set 'to failure', and have been for years.  Failure is a weird concept though... Everyone has a different idea of its meaning.

I just try to get some sensation, anything, in my muscles.  The more I can feel them, the happier I am with my workout.  Unfortunately, these days I don't feel much.  Yet these lighter sets give me an inkling of hope...

[oldschoolfan]

when i was in my 20's  i trained to failure, mike mentzer style


yes i did get bigger and stronger but , i also injured myself twice pretty bad,   first time was my shoulder on heavy inclines.  took almost a year to get better

second time  preacher curls. dint tear my bicep but took a year to get better i could not do any pulling movements without being in pain


i will never train that way again.  the risk for injury as you get stronger is very high. 

[BigRo]

Top Platz is an passionate advocate of beyond failure training.

[ritch]

when i was in my 20's  i trained to failure, mike mentzer style


yes i did get bigger and stronger but , i also injured myself twice pretty bad,   first time was my shoulder on heavy inclines.  took almost a year to get better

second time  preacher curls. dint tear my bicep but took a year to get better i could not do any pulling movements without being in pain


i will never train that way again.  the risk for injury as you get stronger is very high. 

The key is to do many warm up sets.

[_aj_]

This morning, I did 8x8 DB Presses and each set was to failure. My last set, I only hit 7 <-- fail!

[ritch]

This morning, I did 8x8 DB Presses and each set was to failure. My last set, I only hit 7 <-- fail!

how much lbs ya use for that? I did 8x8 as well not so long ago. Just find after 5-6 sets, I don't feel the movement anymore and deemed it ineffective.

[wes]

Not that I do benches,but using it as an example,I`d pyramid up while decreasing reps for about 3 sets,do the next 2 to failure with added weight,then I would do a lighter pump set to failure aiming for high reps on my last set...........kind of a burnout/final pump set.

[_aj_]

how much lbs ya use for that? I did 8x8 as well not so long ago. Just find after 5-6 sets, I don't feel the movement anymore and deemed it ineffective.

115# DBs.

Sets 7-8 were murder.

The transition to BW exercises -- ring dips, v-bar dips, weighted ring push ups -- felt like a vacation.

[ritch]

115# DBs.

Sets 7-8 were murder.

damn. (hangs head in shame...)

[Mawse]

115# DBs.

Sets 7-8 were murder.

The transition to BW exercises -- ring dips, v-bar dips, weighted ring push ups -- felt like a vacation.

lol at your bragging about those poverty weights - come back when you can incline the 130's x 10 (and curl 180)

I often try 8x8 on a 2nd lift after my main 2-3 worksets but almost always rationalize stopping after 5 sets. It's not fun.

[wes]

lol at your bragging about those poverty weights - come back when you can incline the 130's x 10 (and curl 180)

I often try 8x8 on a 2nd lift after my main 2-3 worksets but almost always rationalize stopping after 5 sets. It's not fun.

Hey,cut the shit bro,when you can do the 150`s for a good 5 X 5 give me a call!   

[_aj_]

damn. (hangs head in shame...)

I will admit that the 30 seconds got a little elastic at the end. Haha. I would be willing to go higher, but my DBs only go to 120s and it's a royal PITA to muscle the DBs into position alone. And no spot, etc.

[_aj_]

lol at your bragging about those poverty weights - come back when you can incline the 130's x 10 (and curl 180)

I often try 8x8 on a 2nd lift after my main 2-3 worksets but almost always rationalize stopping after 5 sets. It's not fun.