Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.

[B_B_C]

I agree in part.  What we have seen all over the place is this whole sexual orientation lobby trying to steamroll people.  In Hawaii, they didn't even want to give pastors religious exemptions from performing gay weddings.  That's how extreme they are.

 

getting others to pay the price of ones own conscience when challenged to uphold it suggests an inherent lack of conscience

[TuHolmes]

 

[Dos Equis]

getting others to pay the price of ones own conscience when challenged to uphold it suggests an inherent lack of conscience

Other people shouldn't be paying the price.  Licenses should be issued.  She shouldn't have to sign them, unless there is no one else who can do it.  And apparently, there are others who can sign them, because that is reportedly exactly what is being done now that she is in jail. 

And how many gay couples are we talking about anyway? 

[TuHolmes]

Other people shouldn't be paying the price.  Licenses should be issued.  She shouldn't have to sign them, unless there is no one else who can do it.  And apparently, there are others who can sign them, because that is reportedly exactly what is being done now that she is in jail. 

And how many gay couples are we talking about anyway? 

First, if she tells her office to not do it, then they do not... because they still have to listen to her.

and

Secondly, it doesn't matter if it's ONE gay couple... that's one couple whose rights are being denied by her.

What does it matter if it's one or one-thousand? That has zero relevance what-so-ever.

[Dos Equis]

First, if she tells her office to not do it, then they do not... because they still have to listen to her.

and

Secondly, it doesn't matter if it's ONE gay couple... that's one couple whose rights are being denied by her.

What does it matter if it's one or one-thousand? That has zero relevance what-so-ever.

Yes, if she refuses to sign them and tells her office not to sign them, that is a problem.  Is that what happened?

Yes, the number of gay couples matter.  If 90 percent of the licenses involved gay couples, then a reasonable accommodation is much more difficult.  If it's 10 percent, the accommodation is much easier. 

[TuHolmes]

Yes, if she refuses to sign them and tells her office not to sign them, that is a problem.  Is that what happened?

Yes, the number of gay couples matter.  If 90 percent of the licenses involved gay couples, then a reasonable accommodation is much more difficult.  If it's 10 percent, the accommodation is much easier. 

No... because she was telling everyone to not give out ANY licenses.

She was telling people that because she didn't get her way, that no one gets ANY licenses.

Are you following the story? It doesn't seem like you are really following it and are just commenting based on what you "believe" may have happened.

So it's not just about gay couples... it's about all couples.

She was telling people that because she didn't get her way, that she won't do her job AT ALL.

[Dos Equis]

No... because she was telling everyone to not give out ANY licenses.

She was telling people that because she didn't get her way, that no one gets ANY licenses.

Are you following the story? It doesn't seem like you are really following it and are just commenting based on what you "believe" may have happened.

So it's not just about gay couples... it's about all couples.

She was telling people that because she didn't get her way, that she won't do her job AT ALL.

I haven't read much about it.  Read one story.  Talked to someone who was following it.  The way it was explained to me is she was asking for an accommodation.   

But if she was refusing to allow anyone to issue licenses then I don't agree with that. 

[TuHolmes]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/03/politics/kentucky-clerk-same-sex-marriage-kim-davis/

(CNN)Rowan County, Kentucky, clerk Kim Davis was given a second chance: She didn't have to issue same-sex marriage licenses herself; she merely had to agree not to interfere with five deputy clerks who had told the federal judge they'd issue them in her stead.

But Davis' lawyer told U.S. District Judge David Bunning that his client would not allow her deputies to issue the licenses. Davis was not in the courtroom for the second session. She was in a hallway outside.

"We cannot represent to the court that she would allow licenses to be issued," attorney Mat Staver said.

Staver later told CNN's "The Lead with Jake Tapper" that Davis would issue licenses if her name and title were not on them.

"Because that in her understanding and mind is authorizing something that is contrary to her Christian values and convictions," he said. "That's where the conscience rub is."

Earlier Thursday, Bunning remanded Davis into the custody of U.S. marshals for refusing to heed a U.S. Supreme Court order legalizing same-sex marriage, saying she would remain in jail until she complies with the ruling.

Bunning then asked Davis' six deputy clerks whether they would issue the licenses, and despite some of them holding the same religious beliefs as Davis, five told Bunning they would issue the licenses.

During Davis' hearing, April Miller told the court that the clerk had denied her a marriage license three times, and when Davis took the stand to deliver her at-times emotional testimony, she explained that she could not issue the licenses because of her religious beliefs.

"You can't be separated from something that's in your heart and in your soul," she told the judge, according to CNN affiliate WYMT-TV.

American Civil liberties Union attorneys argued in a motion filed Monday that Davis "continues to collect compensation from the Commonwealth for duties she fails to perform."

They said they didn't want her to be jailed as punishment, but rather, the attorneys asked the court to "impose financial penalties sufficiently serious and increasingly onerous" to make her comply with the court order.

Bunning, however, apparently felt she deserved jail time, but he also told Davis she could end her incarceration by complying with the Supreme Court order and telling her deputy clerks to do the same.

He said he didn't believe fining Davis would convince her to comply with the high court ruling, especially considering that Davis had testified earlier that her supporters are raising funds for her and calling her office to offer financial support,

[Dos Equis]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/03/politics/kentucky-clerk-same-sex-marriage-kim-davis/

(CNN)Rowan County, Kentucky, clerk Kim Davis was given a second chance: She didn't have to issue same-sex marriage licenses herself; she merely had to agree not to interfere with five deputy clerks who had told the federal judge they'd issue them in her stead.

But Davis' lawyer told U.S. District Judge David Bunning that his client would not allow her deputies to issue the licenses. Davis was not in the courtroom for the second session. She was in a hallway outside.

"We cannot represent to the court that she would allow licenses to be issued," attorney Mat Staver said.

Staver later told CNN's "The Lead with Jake Tapper" that Davis would issue licenses if her name and title were not on them.

"Because that in her understanding and mind is authorizing something that is contrary to her Christian values and convictions," he said. "That's where the conscience rub is."

Earlier Thursday, Bunning remanded Davis into the custody of U.S. marshals for refusing to heed a U.S. Supreme Court order legalizing same-sex marriage, saying she would remain in jail until she complies with the ruling.

Bunning then asked Davis' six deputy clerks whether they would issue the licenses, and despite some of them holding the same religious beliefs as Davis, five told Bunning they would issue the licenses.

During Davis' hearing, April Miller told the court that the clerk had denied her a marriage license three times, and when Davis took the stand to deliver her at-times emotional testimony, she explained that she could not issue the licenses because of her religious beliefs.

"You can't be separated from something that's in your heart and in your soul," she told the judge, according to CNN affiliate WYMT-TV.

American Civil liberties Union attorneys argued in a motion filed Monday that Davis "continues to collect compensation from the Commonwealth for duties she fails to perform."

They said they didn't want her to be jailed as punishment, but rather, the attorneys asked the court to "impose financial penalties sufficiently serious and increasingly onerous" to make her comply with the court order.

Bunning, however, apparently felt she deserved jail time, but he also told Davis she could end her incarceration by complying with the Supreme Court order and telling her deputy clerks to do the same.

He said he didn't believe fining Davis would convince her to comply with the high court ruling, especially considering that Davis had testified earlier that her supporters are raising funds for her and calling her office to offer financial support,

Ok.  Thanks for the article.  If she did not have to issue licenses herself, and was not allowing her deputies to issue licenses, then she needs to just quit.

[Skeletor]

It appears this person did not authorize others in her office to sign these licenses (from what has been revealed, one of them was her son). Moreover, it is also unclear if licenses not authorized by her will be valid.



U.S. District Judge David L. Bunning (GWB appointee who opposes gay marriage) stated: “In this country, we live in a society of laws. The court cannot condone the disobedience of a lawfully issued order.” This must be quite hard for paranoid religious extremists to accept.

[timfogarty]

In the next election for her post, let's all get behind an even more fundamentalist christian, who can deny her a fifth marriage license because they think divorce is against god's will.

[Straw Man]

So you're saying you aren't going to tell me what rule I broke then?

Ok.

Yeah, WTF is up with that

If the claim is that you broke a rule and Bum is actually concerned about "the rules" then what in the world would be the issue with simply stating what rule you broke

My guess is that you broke no rule or you did something that people do every day on this board and Bum just deleted your post for some personal reason and doesn't want to face the scrutiny of his decision or more likely can't justify it at all

[headhuntersix]

We now throw people in jail for exercising their freedom of religion.....ok folks ok. You libs need to realize that the day is coming that you will all eventually end up with a government not much different then in Soviet Russia. You've been warned time and again.....honestly you people are the real enemies and should be treated accordingly. You continue to trample on the Constitution. In this case a work around should have been executed, instead we get what we get. Trump and the immigrant backlash are just the first stage of what many in this country are feeling. No minority however loud should be able to trample Constitutional rights. The Supremes made law, where no authority exists to do so.....when you assbags find yourself in a cattle car don't cry to us.

[TuHolmes]

We now throw people in jail for exercising their freedom of religion.....ok folks ok. You libs need to realize that the day is coming that you will all eventually end up with a government not much different then in Soviet Russia. You've been warned time and again.....honestly you people are the real enemies and should be treated accordingly. You continue to trample on the Constitution. In this case a work around should have been executed, instead we get what we get. Trump and the immigrant backlash are just the first stage of what many in this country are feeling. No minority however loud should be able to trample Constitutional rights. The Supremes made law, where no authority exists to do so.....when you assbags find yourself in a cattle car don't cry to us.

We are talking about civil liberties and freedom of PEOPLE... One that no one should be able to deny to ANYONE.

That woman made a choice... She chose not to fulfill her duties.

She has to accept the consequences. This isn't about Lib / Conservative.

This is about what is legal vs. not... She is not LEGALLY allowed to deny people marriage licenses based on her religion.

PERIOD.

If you don't see that as a blow FOR freedom, then you don't get it and never will.

[Agnostic007]

We now throw people in jail for exercising their freedom of religion.....ok folks ok. You libs need to realize that the day is coming that you will all eventually end up with a government not much different then in Soviet Russia. You've been warned time and again.....honestly you people are the real enemies and should be treated accordingly. You continue to trample on the Constitution. In this case a work around should have been executed, instead we get what we get. Trump and the immigrant backlash are just the first stage of what many in this country are feeling. No minority however loud should be able to trample Constitutional rights. The Supremes made law, where no authority exists to do so.....when you assbags find yourself in a cattle car don't cry to us.

If the constitution says it's ok for a religious government worker to not do their job, we need to change the constitution

[240 is Back]

I listened to FOX radio tonight...

she refused a deal to get her out.   She was arrested not because she refused, but because she refused to let OTHERS do the job either?   Prevented work of a govt official (not herself). 

Her son isn't getting arrested, even tho he is refusing, because he didn't have the job title to prevent anyone.  They're just letting him do other things, and having other workers take the gay marriage certificates.

She wanted the spotlight, she wanted to go to jail.  She refused to let others do their job.  That's way different.

[Straw Man]

We now throw people in jail for exercising their freedom of religion.....ok folks ok. You libs need to realize that the day is coming that you will all eventually end up with a government not much different then in Soviet Russia. You've been warned time and again.....honestly you people are the real enemies and should be treated accordingly. You continue to trample on the Constitution. In this case a work around should have been executed, instead we get what we get. Trump and the immigrant backlash are just the first stage of what many in this country are feeling. No minority however loud should be able to trample Constitutional rights. The Supremes made law, where no authority exists to do so.....when you assbags find yourself in a cattle car don't cry to us.

relax

what you've imagined in this post is not what happened at all. 

[timfogarty]

We now throw people in jail for exercising their freedom of religion.

No one is forcing her to select another religion.  She can practice what ever religion she wants, but as a government official she cannot force her religious beliefs on people she is suppose to serve.

Would it be ok in your world view for some government administrator of an alcohol licensing department to not allow his subordinates to grant liquor licenses because it is against his religious beliefs?

What if someone more fundamental had that position? Would it be ok for the county clerk to not allow her department to grant marriage licenses to mixed race couples because it goes against her religious beliefs? Mixed religion couples? Previously divorced couples?

[240 is Back]

No one is forcing her to select another religion.  She can practice what ever religion she wants, but as a government official she cannot force her religious beliefs on people she is suppose to serve.

Would it be ok in your world view for some government administrator of an alcohol licensing department to not allow his subordinates to grant liquor licenses because it is against his religious beliefs?

What if someone more fundamental had that position? Would it be ok for the county clerk to not allow her department to grant marriage licenses to mixed race couples because it goes against her religious beliefs? Mixed religion couples? Previously divorced couples?

great point.   Wait til the anti-Semitic bridge toll collector decides not to let Jewish people pay at his booth.   Wait til the Indian cop decides not to enforce law in neighborhoods where ancestors were mean to him.  Wait til white firefighters decide they won't put out fires in black neighborhoods.  Wait til the muslim doctor lets a getbigger die on the operating table because he decides he doesn't want to treat christians.

She's in jail because she prevented OTHERS from doing their job - huge distinction there!

[Irongrip400]

Why is she in jail, why didn't they just fire her dumbass?

[Straw Man]

great point.   Wait til the anti-Semitic bridge toll collector decides not to let Jewish people pay at his booth.   Wait til the Indian cop decides not to enforce law in neighborhoods where ancestors were mean to him.  Wait til white firefighters decide they won't put out fires in black neighborhoods.  Wait til the muslim doctor lets a getbigger die on the operating table because he decides he doesn't want to treat christians.

She's in jail because she prevented OTHERS from doing their job - huge distinction there!

Kind of throws her entire claim of personal religious objection out the window too

Now she's revealed for being another religious bigot and nothing more

[TuHolmes]

Why is she in jail, why didn't they just fire her dumbass?

She's an elected official.

She can not just "be fired".

They would have to have the local government have a special election to get rid of her... Even then, she could possibly win re-election.

[Irongrip400]

She's an elected official.

She can not just "be fired".

They would have to have the local government have a special election to get rid of her... Even then, she could possibly win re-election.

The world would be so much easier if people just were not dicks to each other. 

[TuHolmes]

The world would be so much easier if people just were not dicks to each other. 

100% truth.

Unfortunately many people want to tell other people how to live their lives.

[LurkerNoMore]

HAHAHAHAHA.

Deleting someone's post on here for no reason and no explanation is no more different than that this dumb ass was doing in her job.

As I said, hypocrisy is like a bear trap that some people keep getting their foot caught in.