Author Topic: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.  (Read 35478 times)

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #125 on: September 04, 2015, 10:57:53 AM »
No, she's not sitting in jail because of her religious beliefs; but you are right that she chose to go to there because she refused to follow a clear, unambiguous and legal order of a United States Federal Court. This is textbook contempt.

Exactly.   We established this pages ago.  The fact that her religious beliefs were the basis for her ignoring a court order is irrelevant to the contempt of court charge she got served with.

I was being sarcastic.  Unless you read the thread from page 1, you may not have realized I was being sarcastic here.

avxo

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #126 on: September 04, 2015, 10:59:51 AM »
Yes, if she refuses to sign them and tells her office not to sign them, that is a problem.  Is that what happened?

How typical of you to chime in on a topic you are ill-informed about... She refused to allow her office to issue any licenses because the license form includes her name, in her official capacity.


Yes, the number of gay couples matter.  If 90 percent of the licenses involved gay couples, then a reasonable accommodation is much more difficult.  If it's 10 percent, the accommodation is much easier.

Except that's not how reasonable accommodation works... It doesn't matter there's one couple or a million. The only salient point about "reasonable accomodation" of religious beliefs is that under Title VII employers are required to "reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer." Even if we set aside the fact that the employer is the State and other legal issues are involved, having the legislature convene to authorize new language on the forms and having the forms printed and distributed almost certainly qualifies as "undue hardship" per Trans World Airlines, Inc. v. Hardison (432 U.S. 63, 1977).

avxo

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #127 on: September 04, 2015, 11:01:04 AM »
Exactly.   We established this pages ago.  The fact that her religious beliefs were the basis for her ignoring a court order is irrelevant to the contempt of court charge she got served with.

I was being sarcastic.  Unless you read the thread from page 1, you may not have realized I was being sarcastic here.

I only skimmed the first four pages actually - I'm on vacation on a beach, getting a healthy tan, so I'm only casually going through the thread.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #128 on: September 04, 2015, 11:11:59 AM »
They offered her reasonable accommodations. 

"During a hearing Thursday, U.S. District Judge David Bunning had offered to release Davis if she promised not to interfere with her employees issuing licenses, but she refused, citing her Christian beliefs."

Obviously she was just hell bent on being a troublemaker.

Straw Man

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #129 on: September 04, 2015, 11:13:54 AM »
They offered her reasonable accommodations. 

"During a hearing Thursday, U.S. District Judge David Bunning had offered to release Davis if she promised not to interfere with her employees issuing licenses, but she refused, citing her Christian beliefs."

Obviously she was just hell bent on being a troublemaker.

this is actually the part that galls me the most

We now know this has nothing to do with her personal religious beliefs and everything to do with her personal prejudice


LurkerNoMore

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #130 on: September 04, 2015, 11:17:57 AM »
this is actually the part that galls me the most

We now know this has nothing to do with her personal religious beliefs and everything to do with her personal prejudice



If it were personal beliefs, then she wouldn't be issuing them to atheists, non Christians, non virgins, people who have been divorced, etc..

She - and the idiots supporting her and making excuses for her - are just bigots and hypocrites. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #131 on: September 04, 2015, 11:20:50 AM »
How typical of you to chime in on a topic you are ill-informed about... She refused to allow her office to issue any licenses because the license form includes her name, in her official capacity.


Except that's not how reasonable accommodation works... It doesn't matter there's one couple or a million. The only salient point about "reasonable accomodation" of religious beliefs is that under Title VII employers are required to "reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer." Even if we set aside the fact that the employer is the State and other legal issues are involved, having the legislature convene to authorize new language on the forms and having the forms printed and distributed almost certainly qualifies as "undue hardship" per Trans World Airlines, Inc. v. Hardison (432 U.S. 63, 1977).

How typical of you to chime in without knowing what the heck you're talking about. 

Yes, the number of couples matters.  That's all part of the reasonableness analysis.  And as I already indicated in this thread, she was offered a reasonable accommodation IMO and rejected it. 

Straw Man

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #132 on: September 04, 2015, 12:12:01 PM »
How typical of you to chime in without knowing what the heck you're talking about. 

Yes, the number of couples matters.  That's all part of the reasonableness analysis.  And as I already indicated in this thread, she was offered a reasonable accommodation IMO and rejected it. 

100% wrong

She has no grounds to deny any single person their civil rights

The fact that refuesed to allow others to issue licenses proves that her objection has nothing to do with her personal religious beliefs and everything do to with her personal prejudice

avxo

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #133 on: September 04, 2015, 12:15:38 PM »
How typical of you to chime in without knowing what the heck you're talking about.

Except I do know and I included an explanation and links to back it up.


Yes, the number of couples matters.  That's all part of the reasonableness analysis.  And as I already indicated in this thread, she was offered a reasonable accommodation IMO and rejected it. 

No - the number of couples really doesn't matter. Read Title VII, which specifically says what reasonable accomodation means and what qualifies, and then read the TWA v. Hardison decision.

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #134 on: September 04, 2015, 12:18:09 PM »
How typical of you to chime in without knowing what the heck you're talking about. 

Yes, the number of couples matters.  That's all part of the reasonableness analysis.  And as I already indicated in this thread, she was offered a reasonable accommodation IMO and rejected it. 

I don't see how you are saying it is ok anyone their civil rights.

So it's ok if we take rights away from one black person, but as long as we don't take it away from 1000, then that's fine?


Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #135 on: September 04, 2015, 12:19:58 PM »
Except I do know and I included an explanation and links to back it up.


No - the number of couples really doesn't matter. Read Title VII, which specifically says what reasonable accomodation means and what qualifies, and then read the TWA v. Hardison decision.

No, you don't.  Did you see my comments changing my viewpoint after reading the article saying she was offered a reasonable accommodation? 

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #136 on: September 04, 2015, 12:27:08 PM »
I don't see how you are saying it is ok anyone their civil rights.

So it's ok if we take rights away from one black person, but as long as we don't take it away from 1000, then that's fine?



That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying in terms of a reasonable accommodation of her religious beliefs, you have to look at exactly what her job involves, what needs to be done to accommodate her, the costs involved, etc.  Part of that analysis includes looking at the number of gay people asking for marriage licenses. If we're only talking about a comparative handful, then accommodating her is much easier.

None of that analysis involves denying people the right to receive marriage licenses.  It's simply about whose signature goes on the document.  The fact they offered her the opportunity to let someone else sign the licenses was a reasonable accommodation IMO.

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #137 on: September 04, 2015, 12:29:32 PM »
That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying in terms of a reasonable accommodation of her religious beliefs, you have to look at exactly what her job involves, what needs to be done to accommodate her, the costs involved, etc.  Part of that analysis includes looking at the number of gay people asking for marriage licenses. If we're only talking about a comparative handful, then accommodating her is much easier.

None of that analysis involves denying people the right to receive marriage licenses.  It's simply about whose signature goes on the document.  The fact they offered her the opportunity to let someone else sign the licenses was a reasonable accommodation IMO.

So you're saying she is not allowed to deny people their rights... as long as we are in agreement, then I'm fine.

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #138 on: September 04, 2015, 12:37:02 PM »
So you're saying she is not allowed to deny people their rights... as long as we are in agreement, then I'm fine.

I've never said people who are entitled to marriage licenses should be denied those licenses.  What I've been saying is it's possible to give everyone their licenses and reasonably accommodate her religious beliefs.  It doesn't have to be either/or.  They offered her a reasonable accommodation. 

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #139 on: September 04, 2015, 12:38:02 PM »
I've never said people who are entitled to marriage licenses should be denied those licenses.  What I've been saying is it's possible to give everyone their licenses and reasonably accommodate her religious beliefs.  It doesn't have to be either/or.  They offered her a reasonable accommodation. 

She does not believe it was reasonable.

That is the point we are saying.

avxo

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« Reply #140 on: September 04, 2015, 12:43:03 PM »
No, you don't.  Did you see my comments changing my viewpoint after reading the article saying she was offered a reasonable accommodation?  

Whether you changed your viewpoint or not on whether she was offered reasonable accommodation is irrelevant. The problem I'm highlighting is different: that you insist - even in your cited post just now - that the number of couples that would be denied a license matters in a reasonable accommodation analysis. You are wrong. If you'd take the ten minutes to read the case I cited and the relevant portions of Title VII, you'd see that. But, you are ill-informed and happy to remain that way... well, I guess that, too, says something about you.


She does not believe it was reasonable.

Whether she believes it was reasonable is - like whether God wants to keep gays from getting married - simply not relevant. I think that you agree with that, no? In fact, the accommodation that she apparently wanted flies in the face of the plain language of Title VII.

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #141 on: September 04, 2015, 12:44:57 PM »

Whether she believes it was reasonable is - like whether God wants to keep gays from getting married - simply not relevant. I think that you agree with that, no?


Certainly I do agree.

I believe you do the job (Give out licenses who are legally allowed to be married) and that is your job, or you do not give them out, hence you are not doing your job and are simply taking up space wasting tax payer dollars.




LurkerNoMore

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #142 on: September 04, 2015, 01:58:12 PM »
That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying in terms of a reasonable accommodation of her religious beliefs, you have to look at exactly what her job involves, what needs to be done to accommodate her, the costs involved, etc.  Part of that analysis includes looking at the number of gay people asking for marriage licenses. If we're only talking about a comparative handful, then accommodating her is much easier.

None of that analysis involves denying people the right to receive marriage licenses.  It's simply about whose signature goes on the document.  The fact they offered her the opportunity to let someone else sign the licenses was a reasonable accommodation IMO.

Has absolutely ZERO to do with this issue and what we are discussing here.  Doesn't matter if the couples are gay or not.  She has been refusing licenses to straight couples as well. 

---
Davis has refused licenses for all couples ever since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in June that marriage is a constitutional right. She argues that signing off on the forms violates her religious liberties and convictions as an Apostolic Christian.
---


Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #143 on: September 04, 2015, 02:03:33 PM »
She does not believe it was reasonable.

That is the point we are saying.


Actually that wasn't the point.  Go back and read the comments.  People were saying she should be fired period, not because she refused a reasonable accommodation. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #144 on: September 04, 2015, 02:08:05 PM »
Whether you changed your viewpoint or not on whether she was offered reasonable accommodation is irrelevant. The problem I'm highlighting is different: that you insist - even in your cited post just now - that the number of couples that would be denied a license matters in a reasonable accommodation analysis. You are wrong. If you'd take the ten minutes to read the case I cited and the relevant portions of Title VII, you'd see that. But, you are ill-informed and happy to remain that way... well, I guess that, too, says something about you.


Whether she believes it was reasonable is - like whether God wants to keep gays from getting married - simply not relevant. I think that you agree with that, no? In fact, the accommodation that she apparently wanted flies in the face of the plain language of Title VII.


Actually, I'm right.  I frankly don't care whether you have a different viewpoint.  Yes, the number couples involved matters.  If it is two couples over the course of year, then accommodating her is much simpler.  It would likely not cost her employer anything.  If a significant number of licenses involved gay couples and her employer had to hire an additional employee to accommodate her, then that would not be reasonable.  So, once again, you don't know what the heck you're talking about. 

She's not really asking for an accommodation.  She's asking that she and her entire office be allowed not to follow a court order.  That's wrong.   

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #145 on: September 04, 2015, 02:08:17 PM »
She should not have a job that she has clearly stated she will not do no matter what.  




Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2015, 02:08:50 PM »
Has absolutely ZERO to do with this issue and what we are discussing here.  Doesn't matter if the couples are gay or not.  She has been refusing licenses to straight couples as well. 

---
Davis has refused licenses for all couples ever since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in June that marriage is a constitutional right. She argues that signing off on the forms violates her religious liberties and convictions as an Apostolic Christian.
---



Of course that's not reasonable. 

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2015, 02:09:27 PM »
Actually, I'm right.  I frankly don't care whether you have a different viewpoint.  Yes, the number couples involved matters.  If it is two couples over the course of year, then accommodating her is much simpler.  It would likely not cost her employer anything.  If a significant number of licenses involved gay couples and her employer had to hire an additional employee to accommodate her, then that would not be reasonable.  So, once again, you don't know what the heck you're talking about. 

She's not really asking for an accommodation.  She's asking that she and her entire office be allowed not to follow a court order.  That's wrong.   

Why does it have to be gay couples?

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2015, 02:16:15 PM »
Why does it have to be gay couples?

That's why she's doing this. 

avxo

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2015, 02:18:51 PM »
Actually that wasn't the point.  Go back and read the comments.  People were saying she should be fired period, not because she refused a reasonable accommodation.  

Sadly, she can't be fired - although she ought to be because she's refusing to do her job and follow the law. If she had any integrity, she'd resign her office. But she has no integrity which is why she refuses to do her job knowing that she can't be fired from her cushy job. She really ought to be removed by the legislature, although there's practically no chance of that happening, because they are likely to miss the forest for the trees, by thinking this has something to do with freedom of religion as opposed to the rule of law.


Actually, I'm right.

You forgot to click your heel three times Dorothy.


I frankly don't care whether you have a different viewpoint.  Yes, the number couples involved matters.  If it is two couples over the course of year, then accommodating her is much simpler.  It would likely not cost her employer anything.  If a significant number of licenses involved gay couples and her employer had to hire an additional employee to accommodate her, then that would not be reasonable.  So, once again, you don't know what the heck you're talking about.

It's not that I have a different viewpoint. It's not even that the text of Title VII is crystal clear. It's that there's actual case law that addresses what "reasonable accomodation" means and how to go about deciding whether a particular request is reasonable. And under the existing case law, whether you like that fact or not, the number of couples affected by her decision is not relevant.  


She's not really asking for an accommodation.  She's asking that she and her entire office be allowed not to follow a court order.  That's wrong.

No, you have it all wrong. She asked, as a Title VII accomodation, to have her name stricken from the forms (according to link her lawyer said that she "would agree to record licenses issued by the clerk’s office, rather than in the name of the clerk, herself.") but that would require convening the legislature, changing the law and then designing, printing and distributing new forms to all the clerks. The accomodation she requested would take a whole lot of time and a whole lot of money and that makes it prima facie unreasonable under Title VII and existing case law.

But, of course... you're right. Despite having admitted to not knowing a lot about the case, despite refusing to read case law that's on point and refutes statements you made and despite generally having a penchant for talking out of an orifice other than your mouth.