Author Topic: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.  (Read 35653 times)

Agnostic007

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #325 on: September 07, 2015, 02:50:51 PM »
So to prop this woman up as some martyr for Christian beliefs is ridiculous...

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #326 on: September 07, 2015, 02:52:12 PM »
Well, if you read the bible.. you will see that while Jesus didn't speak on homosexuality, he did spend a bit of time talking about divorce..... it's a no no unless for fornication/adultery.. of course it sounds like she was the one doing the fornicating.. and then when she remarried, she actually caused her new spouse (both new spouses as it turns out) to commit adultery.. and Jesus said adulterers will not enter the kingdom of heaven

"Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

1) In Luke 16:18 Jesus says:
 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery

This is before she was "saved,  so it doesn't count.

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #327 on: September 07, 2015, 02:52:16 PM »
Well, if you read the bible.. you will see that while Jesus didn't speak on homosexuality, he did spend a bit of time talking about divorce..... it's a no no unless for fornication/adultery.. of course it sounds like she was the one doing the fornicating.. and then when she remarried, she actually caused her new spouse (both new spouses as it turns out) to commit adultery.. and Jesus said adulterers will not enter the kingdom of heaven

"Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

1) In Luke 16:18 Jesus says:
 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery

Why do you read the Bible if you are an atheist?  

Not this matters at the end of the day, but how do you know she didn't divorce because of "sexual immorality"?  

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #328 on: September 07, 2015, 02:52:53 PM »
Then I don't think you have an understanding of how the courts work in regards to civil contempt.

The judge has done nothing that is not standard practice for such things.

It is not standard practice to lock someone up indefinitely for violating a court order related to homosexual marriage. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #329 on: September 07, 2015, 02:53:36 PM »
So to prop this woman up as some martyr for Christian beliefs is ridiculous...

I'm not propping her up.  I'm saying that's the net effect of locking her up like a murderer. 

avxo

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #330 on: September 07, 2015, 03:01:01 PM »
She is violating a court order.  I'm unaware of her state or Congress passing some law that she violated?

The Supreme Court's decision in Obergefell requires the States to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Once the decision was handed down, this is the law of the land, whether you agree with it or not. By failing to issue licenses to gay couples, she is disobeying the law. By failing to issue licenses to any couples, she is also disobeying the law, which doesn't give her much latitude to decide whether or not to issue the license.

With that said, I think that Kim Davis was right to sue the State to request that her beliefs -  such as they are - be accommodated by removing her name from the certificates. This could actually be a sensible accommodation, but she's not free to not issue licenses in the meantime.

She is refusing to do her job and violating State and Federal law in the process. She's been sued, and when faced with an explicit order to let the people in her office do their job, she told a Federal Judge that she would not allow this. If nothing else, she's in violation of 18 USC 401, as I've previously mentioned in this and another thread:

Quote
A court of the United States shall have power to punish by fine or imprisonment, or both, at its discretion, such contempt of its authority, and none other, as
(1) Misbehavior of any person in its presence or so near thereto as to obstruct the administration of justice;
(2) Misbehavior of any of its officers in their official transactions;
(3) Disobedience or resistance to its lawful writ, process, order, rule, decree, or command.

Wait... let me guess... you're going to say that this isn't a law either?

Agnostic007

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #331 on: September 07, 2015, 03:01:21 PM »
I'm not propping her up.  I'm saying that's the net effect of locking her up like a murderer. 

or locked up like a non payment of child support payer..., or a fail to appear dude, or any number of other folks who are jailed for disobeying a court order...

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #332 on: September 07, 2015, 03:02:05 PM »
It is not standard practice to lock someone up indefinitely for violating a court order related to homosexual marriage. 

It is standard practice to lock someone up indefinitely for violating a court order period.

Why are you specifically making it "related to homosexual marriage"?

If a judge orders you to be quiet, you be quiet, or he can and does lock you up.

If a judge orders you to pay child support, you pay child support, or he can and does lock you up.

Any court order a judge makes can and does end up with jail time if you do not listen.

What the order is about makes zero difference... You are the only one who wants it to be specifically because it's "related to homosexual marriage" and that's has zero bearing on it.

Agnostic007

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #333 on: September 07, 2015, 03:02:54 PM »
Why do you read the Bible if you are an atheist?  

Not this matters at the end of the day, but how do you know she didn't divorce because of "sexual immorality"?  

I read the bible my entire teen and a good part of my adult life. More times than I care to remember.. I don't read it anymore but on occasion I refer to it when discussing issues that tie into the bible.  

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #334 on: September 07, 2015, 03:04:40 PM »
The Supreme Court's decision in Obergefell requires the States to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Once the decision was handed down, this is the law of the land, whether you agree with it or not. By failing to issue licenses to gay couples, she is disobeying the law. By failing to issue licenses to any couples, she is also disobeying the law, which doesn't give her much latitude to decide whether or not to issue the license.

With that said, I think that Kim Davis was right to sue the State to request that her beliefs -  such as they are - be accommodated by removing her name from the certificates. This could actually be a sensible accommodation, but she's not free to not issue licenses in the meantime.

She is refusing to do her job and violating State and Federal law in the process. She's been sued, and when faced with an explicit order to let the people in her office do their job, she told a Federal Judge that she would not allow this. If nothing else, she's in violation of 18 USC 401:


That's violating a court order.  The subtle point here is that we are talking about a court decision by a handful of judges, not a law passed by Congress (or her state).  That's the point George tried to make with you earlier.  No, that doesn't give her the right to disobey a court order.  It just provides some context.  

I don't like this situation one bit, all the way around.  

The Ugly

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #335 on: September 07, 2015, 03:04:52 PM »
Why is someone who doesn't believe in God reading a book about something they don't believe in?  

Seriously?

How else would we know it's bullshit? MOST atheists have read it; for many, it's the reason they became atheist. True for me. By contrast, NONE of my Christian peeps have (dozens), which is hardly rare. Worst thing a believer could ever do.

They only know Him as the kind, gentle, loving, forgiving Jesus incarnation. They have no clue what OT God is about - Deuteronomy alone would crush their spirit, never to recover.

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #336 on: September 07, 2015, 03:06:00 PM »
It is standard practice to lock someone up indefinitely for violating a court order period.

Why are you specifically making it "related to homosexual marriage"?

If a judge orders you to be quiet, you be quiet, or he can and does lock you up.

If a judge orders you to pay child support, you pay child support, or he can and does lock you up.

Any court order a judge makes can and does end up with jail time if you do not listen.

What the order is about makes zero difference... You are the only one who wants it to be specifically because it's "related to homosexual marriage" and that's has zero bearing on it.

I'm the only one?  I doubt it. 

I think this is unprecedented, but maybe someone will find a story from somewhere in the country where this has happened before. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #337 on: September 07, 2015, 03:07:10 PM »
Seriously?

How else would we know it's bullshit? MOST atheists have read it; for many, it's the reason they became atheist. True for me. By contrast, NONE of my Christian peeps have (dozens), which is hardly rare. Worst thing a believer could ever do.

They only know Him as the kind, gentle, loving, forgiving Jesus incarnation. They have no clue what OT God is about - Deuteronomy alone would crush their spirit, never to recover.

Saw a bumper sticker once that said "Athiest- Christian that read the bible" I thought it had some truth to it

The Ugly

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #338 on: September 07, 2015, 03:07:48 PM »
Just an fyi, in case anyone is confused about this.   :)

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=552319.0

I don't understand. What was said?

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #339 on: September 07, 2015, 03:08:03 PM »
or locked up like a non payment of child support payer..., or a fail to appear dude, or any number of other folks who are jailed for disobeying a court order...

How many of them were locked up indefinitely for failing to obey a court order, where the person violated the order due to their religious beliefs, and the judge had less restrictive means available to enforce the order?  

Agnostic007

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #340 on: September 07, 2015, 03:08:55 PM »
I'm the only one?  I doubt it. 

I think this is unprecedented, but maybe someone will find a story from somewhere in the country where this has happened before. 

I recall several instances over the years where reporters refused to give up their sources on a story that was tied in with a trial. The judge reviewed the circumstances and ruled they were not protected and ordered the reporters to reveal their source. The reporters refused and went to jail until they complied.   

avxo

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #341 on: September 07, 2015, 03:09:04 PM »
That's violating a court order.  The subtle point here is that we are talking about a court decision by a handful of judges, not a law passed by Congress (or her state).  That's the point George tried to make with you earlier.  No, that doesn't give her the right to disobey a court order.  It just provides some context.  

I don't like this situation one bit, all the way around.  

The Supreme Court's decision established a Constitutional right to marriage for homosexual couples. Now, you may disagree with that decision. You may think it's just as bad as Korematsu, or Plessy. But whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant. What matters is that, post-Obergefell, the right of homosexual couples to marry is the law of the land.

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #342 on: September 07, 2015, 03:09:53 PM »
I'm the only one?  I doubt it. 

I think this is unprecedented, but maybe someone will find a story from somewhere in the country where this has happened before. 

I think it's funny that you focused on that "You're the only one" bit... I knew you would.

Of course I mean in the current conversation with those who are responding currently, but alas, you decide to focus on something that has zero basis to the actual topic.

It is unprecedented specifically because it's about "homosexual marriage licenses", but the general premise of denying civil rights that have been adjudicated by the highest court in the land is of course not unprecedented and you know it.

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #343 on: September 07, 2015, 03:11:12 PM »
Seriously?

How else would we know it's bullshit? MOST atheists have read it; for many, it's the reason they became atheist. True for me. By contrast, NONE of my Christian peeps have (dozens), which is hardly rare. Worst thing a believer could ever do.

They only know Him as the kind, gentle, loving, forgiving Jesus incarnation. They have no clue what OT God is about - Deuteronomy alone would crush their spirit, never to recover.

Seriously?  I don't read about things that I know are BS.  That makes no sense.  I will read things from a source I don't agree with to expand my viewpoint and educate myself, but for example if someone published a "bible" about subterranean aliens planning a War of the Worlds attack, I wouldn't be reading it, quoting it, etc.    

I know a plethora of Christians who have read the entire Bible and they are not crushed at all.  

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #344 on: September 07, 2015, 03:12:26 PM »
I recall several instances over the years where reporters refused to give up their sources on a story that was tied in with a trial. The judge reviewed the circumstances and ruled they were not protected and ordered the reporters to reveal their source. The reporters refused and went to jail until they complied.   

Which ones? 

The closest example I can think of is the lady involved with Clinton who refused to testify and spent something like 9 months in jail. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #345 on: September 07, 2015, 03:14:16 PM »
The Supreme Court's decision established a Constitutional right to marriage for homosexual couples. Now, you may disagree with that decision. You may think it's just as bad as Korematsu, or Plessy. But whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant. What matters is that, post-Obergefell, the right of homosexual couples to marry is the law of the land.

Whether I agree or disagree is not irrelevant.  That's sort of what living in a Democracy is all about.  We have to follow rules, but we don't have to agree with them.   

Nobody is saying those people don't have the right to get married.  I certainly haven't said that. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #346 on: September 07, 2015, 03:17:23 PM »
There is also the guy in the Barry Bonds case who refused to drop a dime on him and spent a long time in jail.  But none of those situations involved a First Amendment free exercise of religion issue. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #347 on: September 07, 2015, 03:20:51 PM »
Seriously?  I don't read about things that I know are BS.  That makes no sense.  I will read things from a source I don't agree with to expand my viewpoint and educate myself, but for example if someone published a "bible" about subterranean aliens planning a War of the Worlds attack, I wouldn't be reading it, quoting it, etc.    

I know a plethora of Christians who have read the entire Bible and they are not crushed at all.  

I grew up in the bible belt, live in Texas now.. I haven't met ONE Christian other than my brother, who isn't a preacher that has read the bible cover to cover and that's a lot of Christians. True story, was having dinner with my wife's friends a couple months ago and the husband is a religious guy who preaches at prisons.. he was hitting me hard about Christianity and all the god stuff and he wanted to know why I didn't believe the bible. I said there are many many reasons but one is the lack of contemporary historians writing about what should have been remarkable events, but are only found in sometimes one book of the bible. He asked for an example and I told him that in Matthew 27 when Jesus died there was an earthquake and dead saints rose up out of their graves and walked through the city and were seen by many.. I said if something like this actually happened, it would have been mentioned by more than just Matthew. He said that story isn't in the bible. I was a little surprised he would challenge me when I have no dog in the hunt but I said yeah..it's in there. He said he read matthew many times and would remember that. So I bet him dinner it was in there... The good news is, I won dinner, the bad news is, I had to spend another evening with him. On our next outing..where he was buying.. I mentioned that a lot of people don't know who cut Samsons hair.. He immediately said Delilah. I said no.. she didn't. Another dinner bet and now I have to meet him again. On our third dinner he never brought up religion..     

Agnostic007

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #348 on: September 07, 2015, 03:21:42 PM »
There is also the guy in the Barry Bonds case who refused to drop a dime on him and spent a long time in jail.  But none of those situations involved a First Amendment free exercise of religion issue. 

but they were standing on principle...

avxo

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #349 on: September 07, 2015, 03:22:54 PM »
There is also the guy in the Barry Bonds case who refused to drop a dime on him and spent a long time in jail.  But none of those situations involved a First Amendment free exercise of religion issue. 

Nobody is preventing Kim Davis from exercising her religion freely. But the free exercise clause doesn't mean she can force her beliefs on others which is what she is actively doing!