Author Topic: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.  (Read 35192 times)

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #375 on: September 07, 2015, 04:40:08 PM »
Which American citizens have been locked up indefinitely without charges or convictions for the past 15 years?    

This has zero to do with Kentucky woman.  

How could you be guaranteed to know?

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #376 on: September 07, 2015, 04:41:14 PM »
How would you be guaranteed to know?

Because it would be all over the internet.  And if it's on the internets, it must be true.   :)

What are you suggesting, secret prisons? 

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #377 on: September 07, 2015, 04:41:16 PM »
Not saying I don't believe you.  Actually, yes I am.   :)

Who cares what you believe... It's the truth.

United States[edit]
See also: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2013, National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2014 and Howard P. "Buck" McKeon National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2015 (H.R. 4435; 113th Congress)
Regarding U.S. Citizens accused of supporting terrorism, senator Lindsey Graham has stated before the senate, "When they say, ‘I want my lawyer,’ you tell them: ‘Shut up. You don’t get a lawyer. You are an enemy combatant, and we are going to talk to you about why you joined Al Qaeda.’"

– U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham, 2011[8]
In the United States, indefinite detention has been used to hold terror suspects during the War on Terror. According to the American Civil Liberties Union, section 412 of the USA PATRIOT act permits indefinite detention of immigrants;[9] one of the most highly publicized cases has been that of Jose Padilla,[10] whose ultimate prosecution and conviction in the United States have also been highly controversial. The indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay has been called a violation of international law by the United Nations, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and Human Rights Watch.[11][12][13][14][15]

On November 29, 2011, the United States Senate rejected a proposed amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 ("NDAA") that would have banned indefinite detention by the United States government of its own citizens,[8] leading to criticism that Habeas corpus in the United States has been undermined.[16][17] Congress and Senate approved the National Defense Authorization Act in December 2011 and President Barack Obama signed it December 31, 2011.[18] The new indefinite detention provision of the law was decried as a "historic assault on American liberty."[19] The American Civil Liberties Union stated that “President Obama's action today is a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law.”[20] On May 16, 2012, in response to a lawsuit filed by journalist Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Wolf and others,[21] United States District Judge Katherine B. Forrest ruled the indefinite detention section of the law (1021) likely violates the First and Fifth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution and issued a preliminary injunction preventing the U.S. government from enforcing it.[22][23][24][25][26]

In 2013, the House of Representatives[27] and the Senate[28] reauthorized National Defense Authorization Act. The amendments to effectively ban indefinite detention of US Citizens were defeated in both chambers. Moreover, on July 17, 2013, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second District struck down an injunction against indefinite detention of U.S. citizens by the president under the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012.[29] The appellate court ruled: "...Plaintiffs lack standing to seek preenforcement review of Section 1021 and vacate the permanent injunction. The American citizen plaintiffs lack standing because Section 1021 says nothing at all about the President’s authority to detain American citizens".

On December 26, 2013, President Obama signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act of 2014.[30][31] The NDAA provision first signed into law in 2012, which permits indefinite detention without trial, remains in law as of 2014.

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #378 on: September 07, 2015, 04:42:55 PM »
Who cares what you believe... It's the truth.

United States[edit]
See also: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2013, National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2014 and Howard P. "Buck" McKeon National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2015 (H.R. 4435; 113th Congress)
Regarding U.S. Citizens accused of supporting terrorism, senator Lindsey Graham has stated before the senate, "When they say, ‘I want my lawyer,’ you tell them: ‘Shut up. You don’t get a lawyer. You are an enemy combatant, and we are going to talk to you about why you joined Al Qaeda.’"

– U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham, 2011[8]
In the United States, indefinite detention has been used to hold terror suspects during the War on Terror. According to the American Civil Liberties Union, section 412 of the USA PATRIOT act permits indefinite detention of immigrants;[9] one of the most highly publicized cases has been that of Jose Padilla,[10] whose ultimate prosecution and conviction in the United States have also been highly controversial. The indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay has been called a violation of international law by the United Nations, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and Human Rights Watch.[11][12][13][14][15]

On November 29, 2011, the United States Senate rejected a proposed amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 ("NDAA") that would have banned indefinite detention by the United States government of its own citizens,[8] leading to criticism that Habeas corpus in the United States has been undermined.[16][17] Congress and Senate approved the National Defense Authorization Act in December 2011 and President Barack Obama signed it December 31, 2011.[18] The new indefinite detention provision of the law was decried as a "historic assault on American liberty."[19] The American Civil Liberties Union stated that “President Obama's action today is a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law.”[20] On May 16, 2012, in response to a lawsuit filed by journalist Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, Naomi Wolf and others,[21] United States District Judge Katherine B. Forrest ruled the indefinite detention section of the law (1021) likely violates the First and Fifth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution and issued a preliminary injunction preventing the U.S. government from enforcing it.[22][23][24][25][26]

In 2013, the House of Representatives[27] and the Senate[28] reauthorized National Defense Authorization Act. The amendments to effectively ban indefinite detention of US Citizens were defeated in both chambers. Moreover, on July 17, 2013, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second District struck down an injunction against indefinite detention of U.S. citizens by the president under the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012.[29] The appellate court ruled: "...Plaintiffs lack standing to seek preenforcement review of Section 1021 and vacate the permanent injunction. The American citizen plaintiffs lack standing because Section 1021 says nothing at all about the President’s authority to detain American citizens".

On December 26, 2013, President Obama signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act of 2014.[30][31] The NDAA provision first signed into law in 2012, which permits indefinite detention without trial, remains in law as of 2014.

It's the truth that American citizens have been locked up indefinitely without charges or convictions for the past 15 years under the Patriot Act, but you cannot give me any examples.  I'm definitely calling BS. 

Las Vegas

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #379 on: September 07, 2015, 04:45:55 PM »
Because it would be all over the internet.  And if it's on the internets, it must be true.   :)

Serious?

Quote
What are you suggesting, secret prisons? 

Again: How could I know?

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #380 on: September 07, 2015, 04:47:38 PM »
It's the truth that American citizens have been locked up indefinitely without charges or convictions for the past 15 years under the Patriot Act, but you cannot give me any examples.  I'm definitely calling BS.  

Oh my God... Jose Padilla was not charged for over 3 and 1/2 years!

CHARGED.

He sat uncharged with a crime for 3.5 years.

If it weren't for the civil rights people going insane, he would have NEVER been charged.

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #381 on: September 07, 2015, 04:49:15 PM »
Serious?

Again: How could I know?


Obviously not. 

How could you know that numerous American citizens have been imprisoned without charges or convictions for the past 15 years under the Patriot Act?  I have no idea how you would find out that information.  But why would you make a claim like that without a factual basis? 

Las Vegas

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #382 on: September 07, 2015, 04:50:47 PM »
Obviously not. 

How could you know that numerous American citizens have been imprisoned without charges or convictions for the past 15 years under the Patriot Act?  I have no idea how you would find out that information.  But why would you make a claim like that without a factual basis? 

Me?  What claim?

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #383 on: September 07, 2015, 04:52:03 PM »
Oh my God... Jose Padilla was not charged for over 3 and 1/2 years!

CHARGED.

He sat uncharged with a crime for 3.5 years.

If it weren't for the civil rights people going insane, he would have NEVER been charged.


Wow.  You mean Jose Padilla, the convicted terrorist?  I didn't support him being held without charges.  

I'm about to laugh out loud if that is the sum total of your "American citizens have been locked up indefinitely without charges or convictions for the past 15 years under the Patriot Act."

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #384 on: September 07, 2015, 04:52:35 PM »
Me?  What claim?

What question did you ask me? 

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #385 on: September 07, 2015, 04:54:02 PM »
What question did you ask me? 

How can we know, you mean?

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #386 on: September 07, 2015, 04:54:30 PM »

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TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #388 on: September 07, 2015, 04:56:35 PM »
Wow.  You mean Jose Padilla, the convicted terrorist?  I didn't support him being held without charges.  

I'm about to laugh out loud if that is the sum total of your "American citizens have been locked up indefinitely without charges or convictions for the past 15 years under the Patriot Act."

Laugh all you want. It doesn't matter if he's a convicted "terrorist". He was a US citizen who was not charged with a crime for over 3 years even though being held.

The core principle is still that a US citizen was illegally held indefinitely without being charged with a crime.

Period.

And that's just the one we actually know about.

Are you willing to guarantee that there have not been any others we don't know about?

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #389 on: September 07, 2015, 05:02:00 PM »
Laugh all you want. It doesn't matter if he's a convicted "terrorist". He was a US citizen who was not charged with a crime for over 3 years even though being held.

The core principle is still that a US citizen was illegally held indefinitely without being charged with a crime.

Period.

And that's just the one we actually know about.

Are you willing to guarantee that there have not been any others we don't know about?


I'm willing to guarantee that you are full of crap for saying this happening to numerous Americans for the past 15 years.

So you said this:

American citizens being locked up without trials.

We are talking about core beliefs of the American judicial system.

If you believe that the core of americans being locked up indefinitely without trials is wrong, then why did you not protest about the patriot act allowing for it.

You are picking and choosing which citizens can be locked up and which can not.

That is a problem.

And here is what I said about holding people indefinitely without charges years ago:

I agree with this.  We shouldn't be holding anyone indefinitely without charges. 

Court Rules in Favor of Enemy Combatant
         
. . .


Yes they should have charged him much sooner, but it's good to know they were not detaining an innocent man. 

I don't think anyone, citizen or not, should be held for five years without charges. 

I'm talking about context.  I didn't hear you or anyone else who talked about this guy mention anything about the fact he is a criminal.  Most of the people caught up in the system are criminals and don't need to be on the streets.  Even though I don't think the guy should have been held without charges, the fact is Bush did you a favor by getting this terd off the streets.  The ordinary law abiding citizen who isn't running around with Al Qaeda like this idiot generally doesn't have to be worried about getting arrested. 

Here is an excerpt about his background:

Padilla's parents moved to the state of New York from the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. He was born in Brooklyn, New York, but later moved to Chicago, Illinois where he joined the Maniac Latin Disciples street gang and was arrested several times. During his gang years, he maintained several aliases, such as José Rivera, José Alicea, José Hernandez, and José Ortiz. As a small-time criminal he was convicted of aggravated assault as a juvenile when a gang member he kicked in the head died.[2] After serving his last jail sentence, he converted to Islam and professed a nonviolent philosophy. He went to the Masjid Al-Iman mosque in Fort Lauderdale, Florida with Adham Amin Hassoun, who at that time was the registered agent for Benevolence International Foundation, a charitable trust which U.S. investigators have accused of funding terrorist activities. Padilla and Hassoun became friends. U.S. authorities accuse Hassoun of consorting with radical Islamic fundamentalists, including Al-Qaeda. Hassoun was arrested in 2002 for overstaying his visa.[3]

If you don't want Big Brother locking you up, then don't break the law and quit hanging around with terrorists. 


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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #390 on: September 07, 2015, 05:06:09 PM »
I'm willing to guarantee that you are full of crap for saying this happening to numerous Americans for the past 15 years.

So you said this:

And here is what I said about holding people indefinitely without charges years ago:


I said it was allowed to happen.

Get the quote right.

I didn't say it happened to numerous Americans for the past 15 years.

I said the Patriot Act allowed for it.

Care to go find my quote again?

How much of you were bothered when the Patriot act let you do the same thing?

Seriously?

And contempt of court doesn't require a trial... it NEVER HAS.

When were we talking about Tea in China?

I thought we were talking about American Citizens being locked up indefinitely without charges. (or being convicted)... which is exactly what the Patriot Act allows for.

Don't get high and mighty about it now because you want to use religion... This has been happening for different reasons for almost 15 years now.

If you're going to use semantics in your argument... Then you better get the quote right.

Dos Equis

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #391 on: September 07, 2015, 05:09:25 PM »
I said it was allowed to happen.

Get the quote right.

I didn't say it happened to numerous Americans for the past 15 years.

I said the Patriot Act allowed for it.

Care to go find my quote again?


You said it has been happening to Americans (plural) for the last 15 years under the Patriot Act.  No need to embellish to try and make a point.  If you were only talking about Padilla, the convicted terrorist, then you should have just said so. 

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #392 on: September 07, 2015, 05:11:04 PM »
We have no way of knowing with certainty what's happening, or why.  It's the entire point.

That means "prove it" doesn't work in this situation, and that is the polar opposite of where we have been, and where we need to be.

It scares me to think of the Americans that don't understand.

TuHolmes

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #393 on: September 07, 2015, 05:11:19 PM »
You said it has been happening to Americans (plural) for the last 15 years under the Patriot Act.  No need to embellish to try and make a point.  If you were only talking about Padilla, the convicted terrorist, then you should have just said so. 

I didn't say that.

So get it right.

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« Reply #394 on: September 07, 2015, 05:14:18 PM »
We have no way of knowing with certainty what's happening, or why.  It's the entire point.

That means "prove it" doesn't work in this situation, and that is the polar opposite of where we have been, and where we need to be.

It scares me to think of the Americans that don't understand.

If we're talking about American citizens being held indefinitely without charges under the Patriot Act for the last 15 years, we would all "know." 

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #395 on: September 07, 2015, 05:15:22 PM »
If we're talking about American citizens being held indefinitely without charges under the Patriot Act for the last 15 years, we would all "know." 

How?

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #396 on: September 07, 2015, 05:15:46 PM »
If we're talking about American citizens being held indefinitely without charges under the Patriot Act for the last 15 years, we would all "know." 

Says who? You?

Dos Equis

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« Reply #397 on: September 07, 2015, 05:17:53 PM »
I didn't say that.

So get it right.

You said this:

How much of you were bothered when the Patriot act let you do the same thing?


Which I just showed you was false.  

Then you said this:

When were we talking about Tea in China?

I thought we were talking about American Citizens being locked up indefinitely without charges. (or being convicted)... which is exactly what the Patriot Act allows for.

Don't get high and mighty about it now because you want to use religion... This has been happening for different reasons for almost 15 years now.

And this:

American citizens being locked up without trials.

. . .


When I asked for examples, you gave me one:  Jose Padilla, the convicted terrorist.  

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Re: Marriage Minded Gays 1. Fundie Christian Court Clerks 0.
« Reply #399 on: September 07, 2015, 05:18:29 PM »