Author Topic: Genesis Contradiction  (Read 3912 times)

The Ugly

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Genesis Contradiction
« on: October 16, 2015, 08:56:34 PM »
18:20   And the Lord said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrha is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave."

18:21   "I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

"Will" obviously indicates He wasn't and didn't (respectively) beforehand. Yet omnipresent and omniscient, hmm.


Man of Steel

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2015, 06:25:42 AM »
This is an unusual literary device used by Moses yet specifically purposed to setup up the exchange between God and Abraham.  I hesitate to call it anthropomorphic language though, but it does still humanize God.  It establishes God’s purposes for making a face-to-face encounter with Abraham (via the pre-incarnate Christ).   We understand that God already knew because of verse 20 in which he states “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.”    It’s the actual exchange between Abraham and God that follows which is the heart of the passage.   Man pleads with God to show mercy and God responds in kind.  

We refer to God as Father because like a Father he leads his children into appropriate decision making.   God works within the confines of our lives helping us draw closer to his will.  Often parents already know the inappropriate circumstances of a situation but speak to their children with instructional ignorance helping them make decisions out of their own desire to do the right things.  

 


The Ugly

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2015, 11:23:58 AM »
So how exactly does He "go down," then, if He's already/always down (and up, here/there, etc.)? What form does He take for a one-on-one?

Because if it's just a vision/voice, that doesn't really require travel, right?

Man of Steel

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2015, 12:53:48 PM »
So how exactly does He "go down," then, if He's already/always down (and up, here/there, etc.)? What form does He take for a one-on-one?

Because if it's just a vision/voice, that doesn't really require travel, right?

He sent the other men (his angels) that were with them.

He appeared in the form of the pre-incarnate Christ.

tbombz

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2015, 03:53:55 PM »
Personally, I consider it "robust anthropomorphism".

God in the Old Testament expresses Himself to us in theologically symbolic language that we can understand.

There are layers, and layers of meaning.

____

However, in some sense God actually does "come down" in order to "visit" us....

We see at the Baptism of Jesus how God the Father looks down from above, as the sky opens up, and the Spirit of God descends like a dove. We see at the ascension of Christ, a return upwards into the sky. We see at the martyrdom of St. Stephen Christ up in the sky. We are told that Christ will return from the clouds above, coming down to earth.  These things indicate that, at least in some way, God is literally spatially above us.

As for omnipresence and omniscience... there are different views on this. There are varieties of 'open theists' which believe that God either cannot know or does not allow Himself to know every single event, due to the gift of freedom that He has given His creation. The traditional view of course is that God is absolutely omniscient and omnipresent, but this does not necessarily mean that God is equally present in every location everywhere, or that He is always equally aware of every fact. Because God knows everything and is everywhere does not necessarily mean that He is equally aware of everything and equally present everywhere... just that He does in fact know everything and is in fact present everywhere. This would allow for God to go down to Sodom and to find out the facts, even though He already was down in Sodom and already did know the facts...  in a sense, increasing His presence in Sodom and increasing His awareness of the facts. Not attaining new knowledge or visting a place that He was previously absent from, but rather moving towards an increase in those areas.

If that makes sense.

_________

(While I do consider the above views to have merit, they do not cancel out the strong possibility of anthropomorphism.)

The Ugly

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2015, 05:41:54 PM »
He sent the other men (his angels) that were with them.

He appeared in the form of the pre-incarnate Christ.

Please explain.

tbombz

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2015, 08:14:38 PM »
Before God destroyed Sodom, He appeared to Abraham with two angels by His side.


"Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth.... And the Lord said, 'The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.' Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord."



Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. He is the second person of the Trinity, and He is the only member of the Trinity that takes the form of a human being. Thus, we safely assume that Abraham is here talking with Jesus.

Man of Steel

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2015, 06:47:19 AM »
Please explain.

tbombz nicely summarized it and it's true what he stated.

When OT scripture speaks of God appearing before men (the visible image of God) what they saw was the pre-incarnate Christ.  By "incarnate" we mean "made in flesh" as God was through the Son in the NT.  In the NT, Jesus entered his creation and was born of a virgin, living as a man and taking on a human nature.  That said, Jesus is unique in the trinity in that he is now dual-natured (both fully divine and fully human).  We refer to this concept as the hypostatic union.

Like tbombz mentioned, God expresses his divine nature in a trinity of three persons in Father, Son and Spirit.   As scripture indicates, no one has seen the Father (the first person of the trinity) as he is spirit and the Holy Spirit (the third person of the trinity) is also unseen as he is spirit.  It is the Son that takes the form of humanity yet is divine so this who is seen in scripture.   As scripture states, "Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God" and as Jesus stated "if you have seen me you have seen the Father".    

The Ugly

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2015, 10:40:38 AM »
tbombz nicely summarized it and it's true what he stated.

When OT scripture speaks of God appearing before men (the visible image of God) what they saw was the pre-incarnate Christ.  By "incarnate" we mean "made in flesh" as God was through the Son in the NT.  In the NT, Jesus entered his creation and was born of a virgin, living as a man and taking on a human nature.  That said, Jesus is unique in the trinity in that he is now dual-natured (both fully divine and fully human).  We refer to this concept as the hypostatic union.

Like tbombz mentioned, God expresses his divine nature in a trinity of three persons in Father, Son and Spirit.   As scripture indicates, no one has seen the Father (the first person of the trinity) as he is spirit and the Holy Spirit (the third person of the trinity) is also unseen as he is spirit.  It is the Son that takes the form of humanity yet is divine so this who is seen in scripture.   As scripture states, "Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God" and as Jesus stated "if you have seen me you have seen the Father".    


So no mention of "Jesus," but it was Jesus. This is an interesting interpretation for sure, one I'm sure Jews reject. Do we know how they explain the verse?

Man of Steel

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Re: Genesis Contradiction
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2015, 11:16:13 AM »
So no mention of "Jesus," but it was Jesus. This is an interesting interpretation for sure, one I'm sure Jews reject. Do we know how they explain the verse?

That is correct, it is Jesus in pre-incarnate form even without scripture including the name "Jesus" in that passage.  We understand more of God's nature and expression of that nature via the NT and how that harmonizes with OT passages such as this.

The vast majority of jews would disagree....they reject Jesus as messiah, God and Lord....that and they got the Romans to put him to death....sooooo....   

You'd have to ask a jew about their interpretation....I don't keep up with that.  ;)