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Author Topic: Christian vs Roman Catholic debate on Mary  (Read 10755 times)
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« on: November 08, 2015, 12:26:27 PM »

Are the Roman Catholic beliefs about Mary unchristian? Biblical Christianity vs. Roman Catholicism

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ie46V2wfw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ie46V2wfw</a>
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2015, 04:18:00 PM »

 Praying to her is idolatry. That simple.
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2015, 07:00:41 PM »

Are the Roman Catholic beliefs about Mary unchristian? Biblical Christianity vs. Roman Catholicism

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ie46V2wfw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ie46V2wfw</a>

I like Dr. White a lot.

I own and have read his book "The Roman Catholic Controversy".

In short, Catholics are not Christians and Christians are not Catholics.
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 09:44:52 PM »

I have to, respectfully, disagree with my brother Man of Steel on this issue.

Roman Catholics confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead. They believe in the Trinity, and they believe that salvation is by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. They only worship the Trinity, and no one or nothing else.

There are many Roman Catholics who deviate from official Roman Catholic teaching, and who engage in idolatry regarding Mary and other Saints, etc. However, this is not the official teaching of the Vatican.

I do not know whether Mary was preserved from sin, or whether she was assumed bodily into Heaven, or whether she has been given some special role in Heaven related to intercessory prayer.

What I do know is that any special position or blessing that Mary possesses is not due to her own power, but due solely to the grace and mercy of God. And Roman Catholics accept this, too.

As for "praying to the Saints, and to Mary"... I think this, and many other Roman Catholic traditions,  are misunderstood by most Protestants.
First, I think the official teaching of the Roman Catholic church is not that people should pray to Mary and the Saints, but that people should ask Mary and the Saints to pray for them... in the same way that a person might ask their Pastor to pray for them. (this line of reasoning goes like this: If a Pastor who is on earth has powerful prayer, how much more powerful are the prayers of those who are in Heaven.)


Personally, I am, by default, technically a "Protestant" (because I am neither Roman Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox). But I really hate being called a Protestant. I dont think of myself as a protestor. Rather, I am 'non-denominational', both catholic and orthodox, simply Christian. Yet, I have an extremely high respect for the traditional doctrines of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths. I do find that upon deep meditation, and even surface readings, that the Bible much more agrees with their beliefs than it does Protestant ones.

So this is one area where I think you will find even conservative Christian fundamentalists disagree with each other about. Fortunately, I do not believe that any of them are salvation issues.
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 10:39:55 PM »

This might be the first time Tbombz isn't the craziest fuck in the chain.
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2015, 03:20:38 AM »

Thanks for that tbombz, as a Roman Catholic I found Man of Steels post a bit offensively ignorant, and those sorts of falsehoods simply get passed around and from one generation to the next without checking the facts or asking WHY Catholics believe what they do..thank you for taking the time to do so and doing justice by righting the wrongs.
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 03:34:29 AM »

I like Dr. White a lot.

I own and have read his book "The Roman Catholic Controversy".

In short, Catholics are not Christians and Christians are not Catholics.

Even though this man has read and studied the Bible so much, he seems to lack charity.. Interesting how his sister is now Roman Catholic..
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 10:59:19 AM »

Thanks for that tbombz, as a Roman Catholic I found Man of Steels post a bit offensively ignorant, and those sorts of falsehoods simply get passed around and from one generation to the next without checking the facts or asking WHY Catholics believe what they do..thank you for taking the time to do so and doing justice by righting the wrongs.


I'd be happy for you to explain your position and educate me more on the RCC.  I'm certainly no expert on Catholicism and I don't want to insult or offend you either.

I would like to understand more about the catechism, penance, venial and mortal sins, papal succession, the authority of the teaching magisterium, the infallible decrees of the papacy, Mary as mediatrix, purgatory, priestly absolution, faith plus works v faith alone in Christ and other such topics.

If you would please provide any scriptural basis for these and others topics you'd like to discuss so it helps me better understand them.  I won't add anything else in this so that you can represent the basis of your faith as it seems most appropriate without the clouding of my perspective.

When you can of course.

Further, I am not anti-Catholic LOL, but it's certainly possible for me to be ignorant on various topics!  I just make a clear distinction.  I want all my current Catholic brothers and sisters to deny works of men and simply claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior!
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 11:00:36 AM »

I have to, respectfully, disagree with my brother Man of Steel on this issue.

Roman Catholics confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead. They believe in the Trinity, and they believe that salvation is by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. They only worship the Trinity, and no one or nothing else.

There are many Roman Catholics who deviate from official Roman Catholic teaching, and who engage in idolatry regarding Mary and other Saints, etc. However, this is not the official teaching of the Vatican.

I do not know whether Mary was preserved from sin, or whether she was assumed bodily into Heaven, or whether she has been given some special role in Heaven related to intercessory prayer.

What I do know is that any special position or blessing that Mary possesses is not due to her own power, but due solely to the grace and mercy of God. And Roman Catholics accept this, too.

As for "praying to the Saints, and to Mary"... I think this, and many other Roman Catholic traditions,  are misunderstood by most Protestants.
First, I think the official teaching of the Roman Catholic church is not that people should pray to Mary and the Saints, but that people should ask Mary and the Saints to pray for them... in the same way that a person might ask their Pastor to pray for them. (this line of reasoning goes like this: If a Pastor who is on earth has powerful prayer, how much more powerful are the prayers of those who are in Heaven.)


Personally, I am, by default, technically a "Protestant" (because I am neither Roman Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox). But I really hate being called a Protestant. I dont think of myself as a protestor. Rather, I am 'non-denominational', both catholic and orthodox, simply Christian. Yet, I have an extremely high respect for the traditional doctrines of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths. I do find that upon deep meditation, and even surface readings, that the Bible much more agrees with their beliefs than it does Protestant ones.

So this is one area where I think you will find even conservative Christian fundamentalists disagree with each other about. Fortunately, I do not believe that any of them are salvation issues.

It's all good.   Wink   I also like to identify as a Christian or follower in Christ, but if forced to associate I'd most certainly be a Protestant.

Different church denominations worship God differently, but above all else they put Christ first above their traditions.

I take issue with those churches that invent doctrine and make it equal with scripture and God's authority.  

Still I've met many Catholics that love the Lord and claim him as Savior.  I'm not here to doubt them.  I've also met Muslims that love Islam, but don't follow the Quran or Hadith to the letter, but they don't oppose it either.
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 11:20:55 AM »

Even though this man has read and studied the Bible so much, he seems to lack charity.. Interesting how his sister is now Roman Catholic..

Christ said that he came to divide mother from daughter, father from son, brother from sister.  He came with a sword to collect his church.

Matthew 10:34-36

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.


Notable Christian apologist Matt Slick's oldest daughter left her Christian faith that she was raised in and adopted atheism in her early 20s.  Just because a man or woman is a theologian, religious scholar or minister doesn't mean their children will claim Christ as Lord and Savior or adopt their parent's faith and theology.
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 11:35:38 PM »

I'd be happy for you to explain your position and educate me more on the RCC.  I'm certainly no expert on Catholicism and I don't want to insult or offend you either.

I would like to understand more about the catechism, penance, venial and mortal sins, papal succession, the authority of the teaching magisterium, the infallible decrees of the papacy, Mary as mediatrix, purgatory, priestly absolution, faith plus works v faith alone in Christ and other such topics.

If you would please provide any scriptural basis for these and others topics you'd like to discuss so it helps me better understand them.  I won't add anything else in this so that you can represent the basis of your faith as it seems most appropriate without the clouding of my perspective.

When you can of course.

Further, I am not anti-Catholic LOL, but it's certainly possible for me to be ignorant on various topics!  I just make a clear distinction.  I want all my current Catholic brothers and sisters to deny works of men and simply claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior!

I can quickly answer a couple of those...

Venial and mortal sin..  all sin is sin and all sin is worthy of damnation.. but there are, in the words of Jesus, "weightier matters of the law". Some sins are like gnats, some sins are like camels. (don't strain out a gnat in order to swallow the camel")

Justification is by faith, but "we are justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24).  Faith alone cannot save. Just as works without faith is dead, so is faith without works. We cannot earn our way to heaven, we must have faith in the cross. But we also have to have repentance,  and despite what some people teach, not everyone who believes also repents. Matthew 7:21.

If like to take more time, but I'm typing on my phone.
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2015, 12:40:53 PM »

I can quickly answer a couple of those...

Venial and mortal sin..  all sin is sin and all sin is worthy of damnation.. but there are, in the words of Jesus, "weightier matters of the law". Some sins are like gnats, some sins are like camels. (don't strain out a gnat in order to swallow the camel")

Justification is by faith, but "we are justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24).  Faith alone cannot save. Just as works without faith is dead, so is faith without works. We cannot earn our way to heaven, we must have faith in the cross. But we also have to have repentance,  and despite what some people teach, not everyone who believes also repents. Matthew 7:21.

If like to take more time, but I'm typing on my phone.
Thanks for the response.  Again I am no expert in Catholicism so I appreciate any and all clarification.

Only thing I would add is that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves as our salvation is a gift of God so that none of us can boast.

Although, our faith is a dead faith if it produces no good fruit via our works.  The focus of James, for me, is about a nominal claim of faith that has no good works associated with it.  

We are justified (or deemed righteous) through of our faith because of Jesus Christ and are we sanctified by the Holy Spirit so that we may seek his will for our lives and become Christlike.  Justification is righteousness credited to us and sanctification occurs within us.  Our good works are a result of the Holy Spirit that indwells believers.   Without a result of good works coming from us as new creatures in Christ our claim of faith is essentially a dead faith.  I see justification and sanctification working hand in hand as it pertains to our good works and righteousness therein.  

James leads chapter 2 of his book by stating what good is man claiming he has faith but has no good works....essentially that faith is dead (it's a false faith or nominal faith).  Like Abraham, righteousness was credited to him because of his faith.  And his faith was demonstrated via his good works that aligned with God.   So I agree that we are justified by our works and not just our claim of faith.

My issue with Catholicism is not about the theology of justification, but more about the false catechism doctrine that states that salvation occurs because of our faith, baptism and following of the commandments (our works).....as works-based salvation.   As Christians we are saved by grace through faith alone.  Yet we are justified by faith as demonstrated by our works (as Abraham was).  I also don't understand how Mary acts mediator between us and God and helps atone for our sins.  I don't find that in scripture and don't agree with that.  That said I find a distinction between Christians and Catholics.  

I would like nothing more than to be united with my Catholic brothers and sisters in one theology, one faith, one God.  What I find is that most Catholics are very sincere, but don't grasp the basic teachings of the Catholic theology.  Despite that ignorance I believe most love the Lord, seek his will, have made a public profession of faith in Christ yet don't even realize all the catechism teaches.

Again, please correct where I have errored in my understanding of Catholicism as I am not an expert.
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2015, 01:10:21 PM »

I like Dr. White a lot.

I own and have read his book "The Roman Catholic Controversy".

In short, Catholics are not Christians and Christians are not Catholics.

This only makes sense from your worldview, though. In which case, how many Protestant denominations aren't really Christian either? Seems everyone is ultimately condemned to someone else's hell.

Rhetorical, no need to reply.
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2015, 01:56:34 PM »

This only makes sense from your worldview, though. In which case, how many Protestant denominations aren't really Christian either? Seems everyone is ultimately condemned to someone else's hell.

Rhetorical, no need to reply.

 Grin
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2015, 11:05:21 PM »

Thanks for the response.  Again I am no expert in Catholicism so I appreciate any and all clarification.

Only thing I would add is that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves as our salvation is a gift of God so that none of us can boast.

Although, our faith is a dead faith if it produces no good fruit via our works.  The focus of James, for me, is about a nominal claim of faith that has no good works associated with it.  

We are justified (or deemed righteous) through of our faith because of Jesus Christ and are we sanctified by the Holy Spirit so that we may seek his will for our lives and become Christlike.  Justification is righteousness credited to us and sanctification occurs within us.  Our good works are a result of the Holy Spirit that indwells believers.   Without a result of good works coming from us as new creatures in Christ our claim of faith is essentially a dead faith.  I see justification and sanctification working hand in hand as it pertains to our good works and righteousness therein.  

James leads chapter 2 of his book by stating what good is man claiming he has faith but has no good works....essentially that faith is dead (it's a false faith or nominal faith).  Like Abraham, righteousness was credited to him because of his faith.  And his faith was demonstrated via his good works that aligned with God.   So I agree that we are justified by our works and not just our claim of faith.

My issue with Catholicism is not about the theology of justification, but more about the false catechism doctrine that states that salvation occurs because of our faith, baptism and following of the commandments (our works).....as works-based salvation.   As Christians we are saved by grace through faith alone.  Yet we are justified by faith as demonstrated by our works (as Abraham was).  I also don't understand how Mary acts mediator between us and God and helps atone for our sins.  I don't find that in scripture and don't agree with that.  That said I find a distinction between Christians and Catholics.  

I would like nothing more than to be united with my Catholic brothers and sisters in one theology, one faith, one God.  What I find is that most Catholics are very sincere, but don't grasp the basic teachings of the Catholic theology.  Despite that ignorance I believe most love the Lord, seek his will, have made a public profession of faith in Christ yet don't even realize all the catechism teaches.

Again, please correct where I have errored in my understanding of Catholicism as I am not an expert.

I will do my best to explain the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation.

They believe that faith forms the foundation of salvation, but receiving the sacraments and practicing repentance are the process of actually entering salvation.

They believe that sacraments are required for salvation - but not absolutely required. They recognize that, like the man on the cross next to Jesus, there are exceptions to the rule of Baptism.

Roman Catholics believe in justification by faith - just not by faith alone.   I agree with them about this. We are justified by faith - but the Biblical definition of "saving faith" cannot be boiled down to faith alone. Biblical saving faith is a repentant, contrite, obedient, loving and fearful faith. This is not strictly faith alone.

I personally really enjoy the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation. They view salvation as a process they call "theosis" - becoming like God.

Paul speaks of salvation in three tenses: I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.

We can think of the past tense as that moment when God recons our faith as righteousness and grants us The Holy Spirit to sanctify us.
We can think of the present tense as the process of cooperating with The Holy Spirit to become like Jesus.
We can think of the future tense as that moment when we finally and forever enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

While we can have some sense of assurance concerning our salvation as long as we are faithful and repentant, we cannot know for absolute certain that we are guaranteed to continue on this path forever. There are some people, unfortunately, who believe and repent for a while, yet in the end fall away and are not saved. (You may disagree with me about this - but it is my position and the position of many Evangelicals, as well as all Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic).


I hope this helps you understand my view, and the view of Roman Catholicism, when it comes to salvation. I do not agree with them about everything, but on this topic we share many beliefs.
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2015, 07:53:30 AM »

I will do my best to explain the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation.

They believe that faith forms the foundation of salvation, but receiving the sacraments and practicing repentance are the process of actually entering salvation.

They believe that sacraments are required for salvation - but not absolutely required. They recognize that, like the man on the cross next to Jesus, there are exceptions to the rule of Baptism.

Roman Catholics believe in justification by faith - just not by faith alone.   I agree with them about this. We are justified by faith - but the Biblical definition of "saving faith" cannot be boiled down to faith alone. Biblical saving faith is a repentant, contrite, obedient, loving and fearful faith. This is not strictly faith alone.

I personally really enjoy the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation. They view salvation as a process they call "theosis" - becoming like God.

Paul speaks of salvation in three tenses: I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.

We can think of the past tense as that moment when God recons our faith as righteousness and grants us The Holy Spirit to sanctify us.
We can think of the present tense as the process of cooperating with The Holy Spirit to become like Jesus.
We can think of the future tense as that moment when we finally and forever enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

While we can have some sense of assurance concerning our salvation as long as we are faithful and repentant, we cannot know for absolute certain that we are guaranteed to continue on this path forever. There are some people, unfortunately, who believe and repent for a while, yet in the end fall away and are not saved. (You may disagree with me about this - but it is my position and the position of many Evangelicals, as well as all Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic).


I hope this helps you understand my view, and the view of Roman Catholicism, when it comes to salvation. I do not agree with them about everything, but on this topic we share many beliefs.

Thoughtful response and I appreciate taking the time.  Something I'll definitely think about.  Wink
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2015, 12:04:12 AM »

Cool.

I just found this, too:


The Catholic Church teaches that it is the grace of God, "the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call", that justifies a person,[18] a grace that is a prerequisite for a free response of "collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity",[19] "With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man",[20] so that "we can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.
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« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2015, 02:41:31 AM »



In short, Catholics are not Christians and Christians are not Catholics.

You know, of course, that Christ established the Roman Catholic Church Himself at the Last Supper?



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« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2015, 12:45:09 PM »

You know, of course, that Christ established the Roman Catholic Church Himself at the Last Supper?



He certainly laid the tracks for the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, but it will fall on deaf ears among this crowd.  Merry Christmas.
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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2015, 11:15:54 AM »

You know, of course, that Christ established the Roman Catholic Church Himself at the Last Supper?



Justify this from an exigesis of scripture please.

Well aware the early organized church was the early church of Rome.
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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2015, 11:21:02 AM »

He certainly laid the tracks for the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, but it will fall on deaf ears among this crowd.  Merry Christmas.

Christ laid the tracks for Christianity.

Well aware the early organized church was the early church of Rome.

The RC church built it's own tracks and those veered away from Christ so I don't support the RC church today.

I believe there are many devout Catholics that love the Lord, but I don't think the majority understand what scripture says or what the RC espouses.

A running joke in Catholic and Protestant churches is that if you asked a Catholic crowd to open their bibles to a passage of scripture that the VAST majority would be unable to because they either never bring/own/read a bible and if they did happpen to bring a bible to church to they wouldn't have clue where a specific book of the bible is located if asked to turn to it.
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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2015, 11:28:03 AM »

Bullshit.

You read the Bible?

It was put together by what becomes the Roman Catholic Church.


I understand the history of the early organized church of Rome....that isn't in question.

Neither are councils of Nicea or Trent.   So many don't understand what happened at Nicea.
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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2015, 11:38:18 AM »

Actually. If you question the RCC you question all of these things.

Christianity today would not exist without it. Whether the RCC has morphed is a completely different topic.

All religions morph. It's why we don't have witch trials today.

Y'all keep arguing this point as if I don't agree with it.  I understand why this approach is taken....there isn't anything else.

I disagree with the RC church not because of where it started but because of what it became.

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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2015, 11:47:08 AM »

No y'all here.

I'm telling you my opinion.

Like every church doesn't have shit in it?

How many baptist or Protestant churches or leaders are corrupt or whatever.

If you think the RCC is bad though, you shouldn't support it in any way. Including reading its book it out together.
Other posters before you (within this thread and others) have suggested the same thing hence the "y'all".

World is full of corrupt people making idols unto themselves.  I don't attend those churches either.  Still this discussion doesn't need red herrings.....we can keep our eye on the ball.

Here's the thing scripture isn't "the word of the RC church" and the teachings of the papacy and magisterium don't add to it either.
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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2015, 12:00:46 PM »

The scripture wouldn't be in written form without the RCC. Period. You know this.

Again, I understand the history of the early organized RC church, it's contributions in forming the canon of scripture, the council of Nicea, the early crusades, etc....  

I also understand Westboro baptist church, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Joel Osteen, Tullian Tchividjian, etc....

These things are not in question.

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