Author Topic: Obama to announce new executive action on guns  (Read 6171 times)

TuHolmes

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2016, 10:44:09 AM »
I haven't read the details of the new laws or executive orders, or reinforcement of whatever laws they are called yet.

But can a person buy a gun from a private seller now?

It depends on the state.

Some yes. Some no.

OzmO

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2016, 10:47:23 AM »
It depends on the state.

Some yes. Some no.


Do you have a link to that info?

(not that i don't trust you, i just want to read more on it)

TuHolmes

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2016, 11:10:14 AM »
Do you have a link to that info?

(not that i don't trust you, i just want to read more on it)

It's pretty common law.

Like for instance, in Virginia, I can buy a gun at a gun show or from anyone else.

Virginia's laws are here:

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm#FAQ


California has different laws.

They must be registered as a dealer

See California laws here:

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#3

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2016, 11:27:58 AM »
I haven't read the details of the new laws or executive orders, or reinforcement of whatever laws they are called yet.

But can a person buy a gun from a private seller now?

Yes.  That's one of the reasons a lot of people are upset about this.  He rewrote the law. 

Here is the current requirement in Hawaii:

Transfer, Possession of Firearms

You may not lend any rifle or shotgun to anyone younger than 18 except for the purposes of hunting or target shooting.

Except for the purposes of hunting or target shooting, you may not possess any firearm owned by another without a permit from the police chief.

For the purposes of hunting or target shooting, you may lend a lawfully acquired rifle or shotgun to an adult for use within the state for up to 15 days without a permit from the police chief. If the firearm is to be used outside the state, it may be on loan for up to 75 days.

You may not knowingly lend a firearm to any person who is prohibited from ownership or possession of a firearm.

You may not bring into the state an assault pistol or sell or transfer an assault pistol to anyone other than a licensed dealer. If you acquire an assault pistol through inheritance or bequest, you must render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell or transfer it to a licensed dealer or turn it in to the Hawaiʻi Police Department within 90 days.

Anyone 16 years of age or older or anyone younger than 16 when accompanied by an adult may carry and use any lawfully acquired rifle or shotgun and suitable ammunition while engaged in hunting or target shooting or traveling to and from the place of hunting or target shooting.

If you sell or transfer the ownership of a handgun, you must obtain the recipient’s permit at the time of sale or transfer.  You are required to sign the permit in ink and submit the permit to the Hawaiʻi Police Department within 48 hours of the transfer via hand delivery or registered mail.

If you sell or transfer the ownership of a rifle or shotgun, you must submit a Sale/Transfer of Rifle/Shotgun form (PDF) (HTML) to the Hawaiʻi Police Department within forty-eight hours of the transfer via hand delivery or registered mail. The form must be completed and  signed in ink by the vendor or transferer.

http://www.hawaiipolice.com/services/firearm-registration

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2016, 11:50:49 AM »
AP fact check: Obama gun-control actions wouldn’t have stopped any mass shooting
January 6, 2016
by Ed Morrissey

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson: media fact-checks on Barack Obama’s claims about guns may not be done entirely well … but one is surprised to find them done at all. Following Obama’s emotional press conference yesterday, both the Associated Press and the Washington Post’s Glenn Kessler conducted some research into his claims and his proposals. Both of them found serious holes in Obama’s arguments.

Let’s start with the AP’s Michael Sisak, who corroborated arguments gun-rights advocates have been making ever since word began leaking out about the executive actions Obama would take:

The gun control measures a tearful President Barack Obama announced Tuesday would not have prevented the slaughters of 20 first-graders at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, or 14 county workers at a holiday party in San Bernardino, California. …

Those measures are seen as crucial to stemming gun suicides — the cause of two-thirds of gun deaths — by blocking immediate access to weapons. But, an Associated Press review shows, they would have had no impact in keeping weapons from the hands of suspects in several of the deadliest recent mass shootings that have spurred calls for tighter gun control.

The shooters at Sandy Hook and San Bernardino used weapons bought by others, shielding them from background checks. In other cases, the shooters legally bought guns.

Sisak appends his analysis with a detailed list of mass shootings over the past three-plus years, and notes in each why the changes announced by Obama end up being non-sequiturs. The only shooting that might have been prevented by federal action should have been stopped anyway. Dylann Roof had a drug arrest on his record, which should have flagged his application to purchase a firearm, but a records screw-up allowed Roof to buy his weapon — and Obama’s proposals wouldn’t have changed that, either.

In fact, hardly anyone buys their weapons through the supposed “loophole” Obama purported to close yesterday, Liz Peek argues:

Access to guns by unfit people has almost nothing to do with the “gun show loophole,” which turns out to be another one of those convenient myths that has driven Obama policy–like the false suggestion that a goodly share of our prison population are innocent victims of overly-harsh drug laws.

After the Sandy Hook tragedy, President Obama convened a group overseen by Vice President Joe Biden to study gun control issues. In a 2013 speech, the president proposed various policies meant to check such killings, including expanding background checks to private sales of firearms. He noted that any sales through federally licensed vendors require background checks to eliminate those with a criminal history or mental health issues, but also claimed, “It’s hard to enforce that law when as many as 40 percent of all gun purchases are conducted without a background check.”

This assertion was debunked by FactCheck, which points out that the dubious 40 percent statistic emerged from a 1994 telephone survey of only 251 individuals. The author of that study told Politifact that he has “no idea” if that number is valid; Biden takes pains when discussing the topic to say the figure may be incorrect. Other analysts cite 4% as a more accurate share of gun sales through unlicensed dealers, given that a large number of the people surveyed said they had received guns from friends or relatives.

A 2001 survey of state and federal prisoners discovered that less than one percenthad bought their weapons at a gun show. Another study, of inmates of the Cook County jail, claimed that 70 percent of those locked up had acquired their weapons from friends or gang members; another favorite source was “straw” purchases made by someone capable of passing the background check. Only two had actually had actually bought a gun at a store.

Still, Obama kept pushing this notion as a pressing reason for acting unilaterally to do … not very much, as it turns out. “The problem is some gun sellers have been operating under a different set of rules,” Obama claimed. “A violent felon can buy the exact same weapon over the Internet with no background check, no questions asked.” This is absolute poppycock, at least as far as the law is concerned, which applies to all commercial/retail gun sales. Glenn Kessler found himself deluged by demands for a fact check, and responded today with a two-Pinocchio rating for this statement:

Administration officials say his point was that electronic commerce has made it easier for prohibited people such as felons to obtain firearms (or to hide such transactions from scrutiny behind the dark Web). Put in those terms, his statement is reasonable. Illegal markets often exploit new forms of commerce.

But many readers believed Obama was asserting the rules were different for the Internet — that it legally permitted violent felons to obtain guns.

We agree that Obama’s language is slippery and could be confusing to the average person who doesn’t know anything about FFLs and interstate requirements. There is nothing unique about the Internet; the laws governing private transactions and interstate sales are exactly the same. It’s the same as offering to sell a gun on a bulletin board, except the bulletin board is significantly larger. The Internet, and eletronic payment systems such as PayPal and Bitcoin, have certainly facilitated transactions that in the past would have been more difficult to arrange.

Obama erred in saying the rules are different for Internet sellers. They face the same rules as other sellers — rules that the administration now says it will enforce better.

Clearly, Obama wasn’t faulting enforcement; he demanded changes in the law, challenging Congress to act to close this supposed “loophole.” His language is slippery and dishonest, and it has been consistently both on this point for years. Kessler gave him two Pinocchios for getting it wrong, but the error in this case has been repetitive and deliberate. Kessler does a good job of getting the facts straight, but seems a bit too gracious under the circumstances to a president who’s been demagoguing on this false premise for a very long time. Kudos for taking up the challenge, but I’d have leaned toward the four-Pinocchio result, with an extra scolding for trying to sell this with a super-sized serving of lachrymose.

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/01/06/ap-fact-check-obama-gun-control-actions-wouldnt-have-stopped-any-mass-shooting/

OzmO

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2016, 12:12:22 PM »
Yes.  That's one of the reasons a lot of people are upset about this.  He rewrote the law. 

Here is the current requirement in Hawaii:

Transfer, Possession of Firearms

You may not lend any rifle or shotgun to anyone younger than 18 except for the purposes of hunting or target shooting.

Except for the purposes of hunting or target shooting, you may not possess any firearm owned by another without a permit from the police chief.

For the purposes of hunting or target shooting, you may lend a lawfully acquired rifle or shotgun to an adult for use within the state for up to 15 days without a permit from the police chief. If the firearm is to be used outside the state, it may be on loan for up to 75 days.

You may not knowingly lend a firearm to any person who is prohibited from ownership or possession of a firearm.

You may not bring into the state an assault pistol or sell or transfer an assault pistol to anyone other than a licensed dealer. If you acquire an assault pistol through inheritance or bequest, you must render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell or transfer it to a licensed dealer or turn it in to the Hawaiʻi Police Department within 90 days.

Anyone 16 years of age or older or anyone younger than 16 when accompanied by an adult may carry and use any lawfully acquired rifle or shotgun and suitable ammunition while engaged in hunting or target shooting or traveling to and from the place of hunting or target shooting.

If you sell or transfer the ownership of a handgun, you must obtain the recipient’s permit at the time of sale or transfer.  You are required to sign the permit in ink and submit the permit to the Hawaiʻi Police Department within 48 hours of the transfer via hand delivery or registered mail.

If you sell or transfer the ownership of a rifle or shotgun, you must submit a Sale/Transfer of Rifle/Shotgun form (PDF) (HTML) to the Hawaiʻi Police Department within forty-eight hours of the transfer via hand delivery or registered mail. The form must be completed and  signed in ink by the vendor or transferer.

http://www.hawaiipolice.com/services/firearm-registration

This is the new law?

OzmO

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2016, 12:13:14 PM »
It's pretty common law.

Like for instance, in Virginia, I can buy a gun at a gun show or from anyone else.

Virginia's laws are here:

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm#FAQ


California has different laws.

They must be registered as a dealer

See California laws here:

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#3

But in the context of Obama new law has anything really changed?

TuHolmes

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2016, 12:16:23 PM »
But in the context of Obama new law has anything really changed?

Yes... the feds are now requiring every state to require all sales to be registered as dealers.

As DE stated (And you know how I hate to agree with anything he says), it would not change anything in regards to the shootings that have occurred, but it is another way to track who has purchased what guns.

I am not a fan of these databases.

I don't even like the fact you have to have a drivers license to be honest. Perhaps I just grew up in the wrong era.

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2016, 12:18:51 PM »
This is the new law?

No.  That's the existing law in Hawaii. 

OzmO

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2016, 12:24:12 PM »
Yes... the feds are now requiring every state to require all sales to be registered as dealers.

As DE stated (And you know how I hate to agree with anything he says), it would not change anything in regards to the shootings that have occurred, but it is another way to track who has purchased what guns.

I am not a fan of these databases.

I don't even like the fact you have to have a drivers license to be honest. Perhaps I just grew up in the wrong era.

I agree it wouldn't change anything regarding the shootings.  Its more of political pandering for his legacy i think.

As far having to have a licence to sell (retail)  in every state?  I am not sure where i stand on this. i think at least it should be a state issue just like a liquor license is.


OzmO

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #110 on: January 06, 2016, 12:25:36 PM »
No.  That's the existing law in Hawaii. 

How is the law going to change in Hawaii?

TuHolmes

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #111 on: January 06, 2016, 12:26:32 PM »
I agree it wouldn't change anything regarding the shootings.  Its more of political pandering for his legacy i think.

As far having to have a licence to sell (retail)  in every state?  I am not sure where i stand on this. i think at least it should be a state issue just like a liquor license is.



That is also a state thing.

For instance, in California, you can sell liquor if you buy a license to sell it. Including bottles.

In Virginia, you can not buy a bottle of liquor at any place but a state store.

Virginia has their State ABC stores where you buy bottled liquor. California allows private people to sell liquor if licensed.

The laws are state laws and are not subject to federal mandates. I can see this being fought and overturned as the states have laws regarding guns already.

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #112 on: January 06, 2016, 12:33:59 PM »
How is the law going to change in Hawaii?

Now a private party selling a gun can be considered a "dealer" and subject to criminal penalties.  From the White House website:

Clarify that it doesn’t matter where you conduct your business—from a store, at gun shows, or over the Internet: If you’re in the business of selling firearms, you must get a license and conduct background checks. Background checks have been shown to keep guns out of the wrong hands, but too many gun sales—particularly online and at gun shows—occur without basic background checks. Today, the Administration took action to ensure that anyone who is “engaged in the business” of selling firearms is licensed and conducts background checks on their customers. Consistent with court rulings on this issue, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has clarified the following principles:

◦ A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. For example, a person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions at gun shows or through the Internet. Those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the Internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick-and-mortar store.

◦ Quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators. There is no specific threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensure requirement. But it is important to note that even a few transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient to establish that a person is “engaged in the business.” For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present.

◦ There are criminal penalties for failing to comply with these requirements. A person who willfully engages in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution and can be sentenced up to five years in prison and fined up to $250,000. Dealers are also subject to penalties for failing to conduct background checks before completing a sale.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/04/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our

OzmO

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Re: Obama to announce new executive action on guns
« Reply #113 on: January 06, 2016, 12:40:05 PM »
Now a private party selling a gun can be considered a "dealer" and subject to criminal penalties.  From the White House website:

Clarify that it doesn’t matter where you conduct your business—from a store, at gun shows, or over the Internet: If you’re in the business of selling firearms, you must get a license and conduct background checks. Background checks have been shown to keep guns out of the wrong hands, but too many gun sales—particularly online and at gun shows—occur without basic background checks. Today, the Administration took action to ensure that anyone who is “engaged in the business” of selling firearms is licensed and conducts background checks on their customers. Consistent with court rulings on this issue, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has clarified the following principles:

◦ A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. For example, a person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions at gun shows or through the Internet. Those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the Internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick-and-mortar store.

◦ Quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators. There is no specific threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensure requirement. But it is important to note that even a few transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient to establish that a person is “engaged in the business.” For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present.

◦ There are criminal penalties for failing to comply with these requirements. A person who willfully engages in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution and can be sentenced up to five years in prison and fined up to $250,000. Dealers are also subject to penalties for failing to conduct background checks before completing a sale.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/04/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our

Yeah that's a little vague.  Although the rest of the text strongly implies someone who is in the business of selling firearms or its part of their business.