Author Topic: Re: having kids....  (Read 20989 times)

Primemuscle

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #400 on: January 27, 2016, 05:56:58 PM »
I don't debate with religious people in real life. They tend to be stuck in their ways, and will never budge.

I debate on getbig, well, because its getbig.   :D :D

I don't debate religion with anyone. To each their own is my motto.

It does annoy me when folks try to foist their religious beliefs on others, most particularly when I am their target.

Master Blaster

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #401 on: January 27, 2016, 09:43:51 PM »

Never once said you can't live every minute of your life without God and be happy as can be.....in fact I've stated that many, many times.

Interesting, I will have to ponder that in the days and weeks ahead.

My current thoughts, (and this is deeply anti-Christian and messed up) are the heaven is not the end goal. We are here to accomplish something special. We need to transcend INSIDE of mortal life , we should not wait for the reward of an afterlife...

Primemuscle

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #402 on: January 27, 2016, 11:33:47 PM »
Interesting, I will have to ponder that in the days and weeks ahead.

My current thoughts, (and this is deeply anti-Christian and messed up) are the heaven is not the end goal. We are here to accomplish something special. We need to transcend INSIDE of mortal life , we should not wait for the reward of an afterlife...

I vowed to not get sucked into this off topic discussion but this post hit a nerve.

Live in the now, anything else is bullshit. No one knows what lies ahead. Do not use this as an excuse for your behavior, whether good or bad.

Raymondo

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Re: having kids....
« Reply #403 on: January 28, 2016, 04:00:17 AM »
You are correct that there is God and only one God.    

Never challenged?   Well, we have atheism, agnosticism, any religion with a plurality of gods and any religion with a different singular god….it’s pretty well challenged.

I'm not sure you got my meaning. It was an exposition from the religious point of view.

An argument is a collection of premises that lead to a conclusion, but an invalid premise doesn’t universally invalidate an argument or a conclusion.   Further, the fallaciousness of your God premise is only deemed as such because of your subjectivity and presuppositions.  It isn’t an absolute truth statement.

There are cases where false premises can lead to a "true" conclusion, but this is only a detail. The argument is still unsound and false. Consider the following example.

I'm glad you ignore the tautological arguments about the existence of God. There is no reasonable answer and the more one explores further the more the totally absurd nature of religion is revealed.

Actually, my problem with nonbelievers that engage the Christian worldview is that they often refuse to allow God to be God.  They take a supernatural event presided over by God, deem it as false because it can’t be accomplished via naturalism and simply remove God from the equation altogether.  That’s a convenience in argumentation.   Want to make your argument work in a worldview you don’t support?  Just add and subtract things randomly from that foreign worldview to force it to conform to your own worldview and presuppositions (or invent a different, unrelated worldview).   That’s what I object to when people enter the Christian worldview…not allowing God to be God.

Interesting use of the word "naturalism". You do not inhabit a world other than the natural one, therefore you should seek natural evidence. There is no soul, God or afterlife because the evidence is anecdotal and circular, people who report them already submit to the worldview, they have no other choice. Further, these concepts are not falsifiable. In religion, there is no condition under which God would not exist, because there is no test or evidence or hypothesis that could convince a believer in the non-existence of God. The need to believe is an emotional choice.

Raymondo

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #404 on: January 28, 2016, 04:07:01 AM »
Well, I'm a person that has experienced both the divine and the demonic so the concepts hold definite truth and meaning for me.  I could give you story after story from those that have also experienced similar encounters with heaven and hell.  Many believers also never have such encounters.

Exactly, they are just stories. Anecdotal information, nothing more. Like stories about UFOs and planet Nibiru.

So, based upon your logic, given that there are competing theories on heaven and hell (ex: Judaism, Islam, Christianity, etc) that this alone reveals that the theories are ludicrous (or fallacious).  This fallaciousness supported by the idea that the concepts are created by men and men contradict one another.  Taken one step further, you qualify your logic with an absolute statement, derived from your subjective opinion,  that “the reality is when you die you die and that's it”.  This absolute statement of ironic subjectivity also grounded in the same subject matter ignorance we discussed previously.

On a sidenote, the vast majority of denominational differences are based in adiaphora (non essentials of the faith) and styles of worship.  Foundations of salvation and the gospel message are rarely comprised within Christianity.  I won't speak for other religions.

You also noted, that religion was invented to comfort folks because of death.  I don't argue this because for some religions this is true.  It isn't universally true and it isn't for Christianity, but certainly for some religions and cults it is.

Back to your original assertion that heaven and hell is ludicrous  because given competing theories created by men and given that men contradict one another the assertion is false.  Great.  This bit of logic can be applied to many things.  Let's take for example the proliferation of competing theories on the topics of the "origin of life" and the “origin of the universe”.  All are therefore deemed ludicrous and fallacious because they are created by men and men contradict one another.


The individuals who formed these theories knew all too well that they are only human and thus inherently contradictory, so they used evidence to test their hypotheses. Where the evidence did not confirm the hypotheses, hypotheses were modified or even abandoned altogether (see cold fusion). Evidence (real evidence, not theological arguments based on self-evident premises) cannot be argued with.

As you said before, there is no room in religion for arguing (see testing) the existence of God. There is no way, in religion, to overcome man's contradictory nature. There result is many Gods, many religions, many worldviews.

Man of Steel

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #405 on: January 28, 2016, 10:22:52 AM »
I'm not sure you got my meaning. It was an exposition from the religious point of view.

There are cases where false premises can lead to a "true" conclusion, but this is only a detail. The argument is still unsound and false. Consider the following example.

I'm glad you ignore the tautological arguments about the existence of God. There is no reasonable answer and the more one explores further the more the totally absurd nature of religion is revealed.

Interesting use of the word "naturalism". You do not inhabit a world other than the natural one, therefore you should seek natural evidence. There is no soul, God or afterlife because the evidence is anecdotal and circular, people who report them already submit to the worldview, they have no other choice. Further, these concepts are not falsifiable. In religion, there is no condition under which God would not exist, because there is no test or evidence or hypothesis that could convince a believer in the non-existence of God. The need to believe is an emotional choice.

Exactly, they are just stories. Anecdotal information, nothing more. Like stories about UFOs and planet Nibiru.

The individuals who formed these theories knew all too well that they are only human and thus inherently contradictory, so they used evidence to test their hypotheses. Where the evidence did not confirm the hypotheses, hypotheses were modified or even abandoned altogether (see cold fusion). Evidence (real evidence, not theological arguments based on self-evident premises) cannot be argued with.

As you said before, there is no room in religion for arguing (see testing) the existence of God. There is no way, in religion, to overcome man's contradictory nature. There result is many Gods, many religions, many worldviews.

You'll have to forgive me, but I'll have to reply later on.   

Unfortunately I lost my grandmother last night....tiny, sweet lady almost 100 years old.  She thought I was the biggest human on earth LOL!!

My brain is just not working for heavier dialogue today.  :) :'(  

Howard

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #406 on: January 28, 2016, 02:07:10 PM »
You'll have to forgive me, but I'll have to reply later on.   

Unfortunately I lost my grandmother last night....tiny, sweet lady almost 100 years old.  She thought I was the biggest human on earth LOL!!

My brain is just not working for heavier dialogue today.  :) :'(  

I am sorry for your loss. She must have been quite a lady.
I'm sure she's in heaven now .
May you and your family find some peace at this trying time.
God Bless and keep the faith.

King Shizzo

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #407 on: January 28, 2016, 02:12:58 PM »
I vowed to not get sucked into this off topic discussion but this post hit a nerve.

Live in the now, anything else is bullshit. No one knows what lies ahead. Do not use this as an excuse for your behavior, whether good or bad.
Freudian slip?

AbrahamG

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #408 on: January 28, 2016, 04:41:49 PM »

Kim Jong Bob

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Re: having kids....
« Reply #409 on: January 28, 2016, 04:48:59 PM »
Ok, nobody impregnate anybody until we get to the bottom of this.
this post deseves a lål

Primemuscle

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #410 on: January 28, 2016, 07:03:22 PM »
Freudian slip?

Could be. It also could be that your pea brain cannot comprehend definitions other than sexual for the term "sucked into" which is frankly very disappointing. I honestly imagined you to be smarter than this. Maybe it was just you having a momentary brain fart.  ;D

Honestly, just kidding you. It was a Freudian slip. I'm presently super horny and need sex very badly. Any ideas?  ::)

Yamcha

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #411 on: January 29, 2016, 03:30:27 AM »
LOFL

Could you please expand on what this acronym represents?
a

OB1

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #412 on: January 29, 2016, 03:39:50 AM »
Could you please expand on what this acronym represents?

Lying On the Floor Laughing?
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Raymondo

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #413 on: January 29, 2016, 05:01:42 AM »
You're right, but Raymondo isn't wrong.  All theories are ludicrous and fallacious, some moreso than others.  Christian theories are more ludicrous than "scientific" theories at this point in history, which explains why most people who still subscribe to the former are either uneducated or indoctrinated as children.

Unfortunately, the latter often suffer serious mental schisms as they attempt to reconcile the theories that they accepted as a child with the theories they learn as adults.

Some say you are "brainwashing" your kids because they do not have the education necessary to question what you teach them.  Unfortunately while you instill ancient morals into your children, you aren't teaching them ancient arithmetic, ancient physics, ancient biology, etc.  The rest of their rational faculties will develop under modern ("worldly") instruction, at which point they will begin to suffer cognitive dissonance in proportion to their intelligence.

At this point, two outcomes arise:

1.  Retain beliefs, continue to suffer.
2.  Abandon beliefs, try to reconstruct identity.

Unfortunately, should they choose the latter, they won't have their parents' help.  And faced with this challenge, they may take choose to retain their "faith" -- not really "believing", but afraid of the alternative.

I think this is the best retort to the assertion that the best way to raise children is to put God at the center of everything.

It is not surprising that believers are told to not live for the world. "Not" living for the world is much more relevant now than it was at the time it was written.

One question that needs to be asked before having children is the following: What traits do you want to encourage in your children and can you create the environment to encourage them? I think believers can answer these questions much easier than anyone else.

Man of Steel

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #414 on: January 29, 2016, 08:50:31 AM »
I think this is the best retort to the assertion that the best way to raise children is to put God at the center of everything.

It is not surprising that believers are told to not live for the world. "Not" living for the world is much more relevant now than it was at the time it was written.

One question that needs to be asked before having children is the following: What traits do you want to encourage in your children and can you create the environment to encourage them? I think believers can answer these questions much easier than anyone else.

So basically you agree with cephissus that I'm deluded, stupid and on the verge of a mental breakdown?  Is that correct?

Grape Ape

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #415 on: January 29, 2016, 08:59:59 AM »

At this point, two outcomes arise:

1.  Retain beliefs, continue to suffer.
2.  Abandon beliefs, try to reconstruct identity.

Unfortunately, should they choose the latter, they won't have their parents' help.  And faced with this challenge, they may take choose to retain their "faith" -- not really "believing", but afraid of the alternative.

They shouldn't need it, assuming they are grown-ass adults.

And, if they're able to ID the root of their neurosis, yet not adapt and overcome it, maybe what they think the root cause...isn't.
Y

Man of Steel

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #416 on: January 29, 2016, 09:07:01 AM »
I enjoy how y'all are making absolute statements (per subjectivity) about theists with mental delusions, or a neurosis, etc....I'm just going to exit this thread now and let y'all continue on......my words are now beyond meaningless in this thread.   I've said all that needs to be said.

God bless y'all!

OB1

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #417 on: January 29, 2016, 09:16:07 AM »
I enjoy how y'all are making absolute statements (per subjectivity) about theists with mental delusions, or a neurosis, etc....I'm just going to exit this thread now and let y'all continue on......my words are now beyond meaningless in this thread.   I've said all that needs to be said.

God bless y'all!

Why leave when you enjoy it?
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Raymondo

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #418 on: January 29, 2016, 09:44:48 AM »
So basically you agree with cephissus that I'm deluded, stupid and on the verge of a mental breakdown?  Is that correct?

I really don't think this is cephissus's point.

You're turning this personal again but I will make an exception and reply, because I realise you may be feeling a little emotional with the recent bereavement (if you don't, apologies, just ignore the rest of the post).

No, I do not think you are stupid.

No, I do not think you are on the verge of a mental breakdown, at least not because of your beliefs.

Yes, I think you are massively deluded. I acknowledge you probably think the same of me.

Howard

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Re: Re: having kids....
« Reply #419 on: January 29, 2016, 11:07:02 AM »
I enjoy how y'all are making absolute statements (per subjectivity) about theists with mental delusions, or a neurosis, etc....I'm just going to exit this thread now and let y'all continue on......my words are now beyond meaningless in this thread.   I've said all that needs to be said.

God bless y'all!

My sincere view is that everyone needs some form of faith.
So long as they don't feel the need to strap on a suicide vest, I'm fine with ANY religious dogma.

God Bless

lilhawk1

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Re: having kids....
« Reply #420 on: January 29, 2016, 11:26:47 AM »
The problem comes in when people interpret the bible as literal history.  It's not meant to be read as a history book.  I believe there is one God, but there are many pathways to that God.  Christianity is not the one and only religion like the fanatics claim.  If anyone is interested in good reading check out the books by John Shelby Spong.  He's a Catholic Bishop.  Really opened my eyes as to how to interpret things and changed my views on Catholic Church, and religion.

Primemuscle

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Re: having kids....
« Reply #421 on: January 29, 2016, 11:28:53 AM »
The mods should move this thread. I bulk of what is posted here is about religion and not about having kids.

Azure

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Re: having kids....
« Reply #422 on: January 29, 2016, 12:56:27 PM »
To me having kids should be intentional. I thought for years I would not be married or have kids because I wasn't sure if I wanted to be married or have kids. As I got older though  Something changed and then I did start structuring my life for it to happen.

One of the for sure signs that this was the right one was that right off the bat it was said I want a family. That eased my reservations about other issues. Faith played a big role in it for him. Some men know that's what they want and I was lucky to get that because as I got older the ones who didn't want kids and wanted to be forever bachelors were the ones who were available and I didn't want that

Good thing I look way younger than I am!

ritch

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Re: having kids....
« Reply #423 on: January 29, 2016, 12:59:21 PM »
Don't do it...
?

Howard

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Re: having kids....
« Reply #424 on: January 29, 2016, 01:50:38 PM »
The problem comes in when people interpret the bible as literal history.  It's not meant to be read as a history book.  I believe there is one God, but there are many pathways to that God.  Christianity is not the one and only religion like the fanatics claim.  If anyone is interested in good reading check out the books by John Shelby Spong.  He's a Catholic Bishop.  Really opened my eyes as to how to interpret things and changed my views on Catholic Church, and religion.

Yup ! That's my basic view as well. I believe in GOD, but feel there is more then one path to HIM