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Author Topic: In response to 10 pints: Can a rational argument be made for a Creator?  (Read 13533 times)
Raymondo
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« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2016, 06:01:28 AM »

Before more personal attacks/inevitable death threats take place and for anyone who still reads this thread:

The rational case for a creator was shown to be invalid on page 6. Therefore, it can be said there is no creator.
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pellius
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« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2016, 06:34:16 AM »

Before more personal attacks/inevitable death threats take place and for anyone who still reads this thread:

The rational case for a creator was shown to be invalid on page 6. Therefore, it can be said there is no creator.

Two questions, and from now on I insist on being answered if you want an answer from me.

1. What specific post on page six shows a rational case for a Creator is invalid? Quote it here.

2. How do YOU explain how the universe came to be and how it happened? Don't refer to other posts. I would like a fresh answer from you.
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« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2016, 09:11:18 AM »

How could God have a cause? 
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avxo
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« Reply #178 on: February 26, 2016, 09:15:23 AM »

How could God have a cause? 

If everything must have a cause - that's the basic premise in the argument that pellius makes - then how could he not?
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« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2016, 09:23:47 AM »

If everything must have a cause - that's the basic premise in the argument that pellius makes - then how could he not?

I get what you're saying from the perspective of the argument.  

Now from a Christian perspective of God - the all-powerful, all-knowing, eternal magic man in the sky who created all that is, was and ever will be - how could he have been caused/created/derived by something/someone outside of himself?  

The idea that God is uncaused is scoffed at as ridiculous and illogical.  Cool.  So, aside from casually dismissing God, what or who is the logical source/cause of God?
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avxo
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« Reply #180 on: February 26, 2016, 09:49:10 AM »

Now from a Christian perspective of God - the all-powerful, all-knowing, eternal magic man in the sky who created all that is, was and ever will be - how could he have been caused/created/derived by something/someone outside of himself?

Well, maybe you and I and the entire Universe are algorithms inside a computer simulation and God is the programmer in front of the screen, who's all-powerful and all-knowing and created all that is, was and ever will be. And he's just waiting for 5PM to come around, so he can go home and enjoy a quiet, relaxing weekend.


The idea that God is uncaused is scoffed at as ridiculous and illogical.

No. The idea that nothing can be uncaused and everything requires a creator, except for the creator who is uncaused and doesn't is what's scoffed at as ridiculous and illogical.


So, aside from casually dismissing God, what or who is the logical source/cause of God?

You'll hate my answer, but what if we are the logical source/cause of God?
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« Reply #181 on: February 26, 2016, 09:56:43 AM »

Well, maybe you and I and the entire Universe are algorithms inside a computer simulation and God is the programmer in front of the screen, who's all-powerful and all-knowing and created all that is, was and ever will be. And he's just waiting for 5PM to come around, so he can go home and enjoy a quiet, relaxing weekend.


No. The idea that nothing can be uncaused and everything requires a creator, except for the creator who is uncaused and doesn't is what's scoffed at as ridiculous and illogical.


You'll hate my answer, but what if we are the logical source/cause of God?

Hey, If I'm in the matrix just keep me plugged in!  I can't eat that protein oatmeal stuff everyday.

I understand.  My question is given who God is (and just granting his existence for a moment) how could he be caused?   I can't reason it, but maybe one of y'all can.

I don't hate it.  I'm just asking to step outside that perspective for a bit.
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avxo
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« Reply #182 on: February 26, 2016, 10:36:54 AM »

Hey, If I'm in the matrix just keep me plugged in!  I can't eat that protein oatmeal stuff everyday.

You and me both... I need to eat like a normal fat American.

I understand.  My question is given who God is (and just granting his existence for a moment) how could he be caused?

I don't hate it.  I'm just asking to step outside that perspective for a bit.

It's hard, if not impossible, to answer that question even if we have the entire Bible to draw from unchallenged. But that doesn't mean he was uncaused.

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« Reply #183 on: February 26, 2016, 11:42:33 AM »

You and me both... I need to eat like a normal fat American.

It's hard, if not impossible, to answer that question even if we have the entire Bible to draw from unchallenged. But that doesn't mean he was uncaused.



Best I can reason, if we enter the Christian worldview and consider who God is (as stated previously) and then suppose a something/someone that caused God to be then that something/someone would be outside of God and greater than God and would be God.  

Then who created God that created God?  And who created God that created God that created God?  The classic infinite regression.  

For God to be God he is uncaused.  That's impossible for me to fully reason and understand completely, but yet possible for me to accept.   If something began to exist then it has a cause.  God is the ultimate being and is eternal, existing from everlasting to everlasting...he is without beginning or end.  For God to be God there is nothing greater than him that could have created him or caused him to be.   There is only God above all else existing beyond the boundaries of time and space as we know it.

Just my brief take.
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« Reply #184 on: February 26, 2016, 02:44:40 PM »


But you have taken me to my limit as I am not a physicist. Because my understanding of a virtual  particle is that it is more of a conceptual entity than real brick and stone, then I have to admit that I do not know if they have "mass".

This was the point I was trying to make.As others have already said,  in a world without mass- only energy- the rules of physics are likely different. The idea of time is different.

Speaking of which, you scoffed at the poster who claimed time doesn't exist, but if you are going to have an existential discussion about physics then it seems like perception is an important aspect.  You acknowledged that there is at least one dimension we can't perceive, so who's to say that dimension is not as important as time? Perhaps it was the preeminent dimension in a universe that preceded matter?  Perhaps it's the preeminent dimension in the universe that resulted from the creation of matter and we just don't have the ability to perceive it?  Perhaps "time" is just a way for sentient beings to grasp a much more complicated concept?  If that's the case, then a first cause isn't necessary. It would be as pointless as asking where the beginning of the earth is.
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« Reply #185 on: February 26, 2016, 05:49:14 PM »

This was the point I was trying to make.As others have already said,  in a world without mass- only energy- the rules of physics are likely different. The idea of time is different.

Speaking of which, you scoffed at the poster who claimed time doesn't exist, but if you are going to have an existential discussion about physics then it seems like perception is an important aspect.  You acknowledged that there is at least one dimension we can't perceive, so who's to say that dimension is not as important as time? Perhaps it was the preeminent dimension in a universe that preceded matter?  Perhaps it's the preeminent dimension in the universe that resulted from the creation of matter and we just don't have the ability to perceive it?  Perhaps "time" is just a way for sentient beings to grasp a much more complicated concept?  If that's the case, then a first cause isn't necessary. It would be as pointless as asking where the beginning of the earth is.

I said time didn't exist? And what poster did I "scoff" at for saying that it did. In my first post I specifically stated that the universe: time, space and matter had a beginning. A beginning that scientist estimate to be around 13.7 billion years ago.

And, again, perhaps a first cause isn't necessary, I can't prove otherwise and admitted so. Something came from nothing. Matter always existed.

But I don't know why that is any more rational and logical and requires a leap of faith than a first cause.

Also, for the sake of preciseness and clarity, I said that we can't
perceive dimensions higher than our own. Whether there are actually higher dimensions or not I don't know.
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avxo
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« Reply #186 on: February 26, 2016, 06:38:20 PM »

And, again, perhaps a first cause isn't necessary, I can't prove otherwise and admitted so. Something came from nothing. Matter always existed.

But I don't know why that is any more rational and logical and requires a leap of faith than a first cause.

Occam's razor.


Also, for the sake of preciseness and clarity, I said that we can't
perceive dimensions higher than our own. Whether there are actually higher dimensions or not I don't know.

Higher dimensions likely exist, although it'll be exceedingly difficult for us to visualize what that means (I can show you an interesting video that shows the three-dimensional shadow cast from a four-dimensional rotating hypercube that will amuse and confuse you!). From a theoretical perspective, they're likely "curved" into each other on special kinds of manifolds, making them inaccessible to us.
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« Reply #187 on: February 26, 2016, 07:46:44 PM »

I said time didn't exist? And what poster did I "scoff" at for saying that it did. In my first post I specifically stated that the universe: time, space and matter had a beginning. A beginning that scientist estimate to be around 13.7 billion years ago.

And, again, perhaps a first cause isn't necessary, I can't prove otherwise and admitted so. Something came from nothing. Matter always existed.

But I don't know why that is any more rational and logical and requires a leap of faith than a first cause.

Also, for the sake of preciseness and clarity, I said that we can't
perceive dimensions higher than our own. Whether there are actually higher dimensions or not I don't know.

Another poster said that time doesn't exist and you scoffed at him. I believe you said it was the kind of stuff talked about by high schoolers in vans or something like that.
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pellius
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« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2016, 11:17:21 PM »

Another poster said that time doesn't exist and you scoffed at him. I believe you said it was the kind of stuff talked about by high schoolers in vans or something like that.


It was da vinci's new age hippie talk that I was "scoffing" at.

"We are all gods. The universe is god." "There is no such thing as time." "We are the universe itself thinking about itself."

It was that kind of talk that conjured up images of Volkswagon vans, high school parking lots, and bong pipes. He was musing and philosophizing and I didn't want to go in that direction

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« Reply #189 on: February 27, 2016, 05:05:09 AM »


It was da vinci's new age hippie talk that I was "scoffing" at.

"We are all gods. The universe is god." "There is no such thing as time." "We are the universe itself thinking about itself."

It was that kind of talk that conjured up images of Volkswagon vans, high school parking lots, and bong pipes. He was musing and philosophizing and I didn't want to go in that direction



His statement about us being the universe is accurate and factually correct. We are made up of the "stuff" created by fusion in the heart of a star, it exploded, planets, formed, we came from planets etc.. We are the universe come alive.

Some go further, talking about quantum entanglement, all is entangled.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU</a>
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