Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
October 17, 2017, 01:32:53 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: In response to 10 pints: Can a rational argument be made for a Creator?  (Read 13531 times)
pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« on: February 19, 2016, 04:06:51 AM »

Warning: This is not for the average GetBigger. Only those that are really, really interested in this topic and is willing to endure more endless walls of text from me. I decided to address it because 10 Pints asked a very valid question and challenged me to answer it. I knew this would be an involved undertaking but since it comes up so often, and I feel that because I've agonize, and continue to agonize, over these issues, and have gone the full gamut of believer, Agnostic for twenty years, and now back to a believer, that I can address these questions and issues competently.  

My purpose is not to convert anybody and that these are matters of faith, i.e. belief in something in which there is no conclusive proof. It is simply to demonstrate that you can believe in a Creator based on reason, science and rational arguments and dispute the notion that believers are people who can't think for themselves and are mindless sheep based on emotion and what they want and wish were so.

Again, I want to emphasize, it is to demonstrate that you can believe in a Creator based on reason, science and rational arguments. And what I present, to be precise, is not so much evidence but an argument for a Creator. An argument based of reason and science and not just emotion and wishful thinking.


Belief in a Creator of the universe and the belief that the universe came out of nothing, i.e, first there was nothing: no space, no time and then bang, a Big Bang; is both a matter of faith. Which side you choose doesn't necessarily have to do with intelligence. There are smart people and stupid on both sides. It is your perspective, your world view, that partly determines this.

I find it curious that a Theist does not consider an Atheist as stupid but simply wrong. Of course an Atheist will argue that their belief is based on reason, evidence and rational argument whereas a Theist's belief is based on blind faith, emotion and up bringing.

I can't, nor can anyone else, prove the existence of God, but I can present some rational arguments, some based on science, that the belief in God is not based on just blind faith and emotion.

Thomas Aquinas, whom nobody can credibly regard as unintelligent, made the not very startling observation that things move. But nothing moves for no reason. Something must cause that movement. But whatever cause that movement had to be caused by something else. But this causal chain cannot go backwards forever. It must have a beginning. An unmoved mover. Everything that begins must have a cause.  Nothing comes from nothing. So if there is no creator there can't be a creation, i.e. a universe.

But what if the universe is infinitely old? I remember Carl Sagan in the origin "Cosmos" aired in 1980 (I'm old) argued, an argument that I agreed with at the time, said that either a God always existed or the universe always existed. He was just eliminating one extra step. He had no need for God. Matter was his god.

Well, all SCIENTIST now agree that the universe is not infinitely old. The universe had a beginning - a Big Bang. And if the universe had a beginning then it didn't always exist. It didn't have to exist. And if things don't have to exist then it must have cause.

And there is some confirmation of this from science, from Big Bang Cosmology. We now know that all matter came into existence around 13.7 billion years ago.

Now add to this premise a second, very LOGICAL, premise of the principle of causality. That nothing begins without a cause  and you get the conclusion that since there was a Big Bang there must be a, well, "Big Banger"..

But does that mean that this "Big Banger" is the Creator? Why can't it be just another universe? Well, according to Einstein all time is relative to matter and since all matter began 13.7 billions years ago SO DID ALL TIME.

So there is no time before the Big Bang. But say there is time before the Big Bang, That you want to reject the laws of General Relativity and still claim the mantle of rationalism. That, say, there are "multi-verses" with many Big Bangs. That, too, must have a beginning. And it is this absolute beginning that most people mean by a Creator. Yet some Atheist find the existence of an infinite number of universes more rational than the existence of a Creator even though there is no, zero, empirical evidence than any of these unknown universes exist.

So it is not just the theist that requires faith, it is also the atheist that requires faith. It takes faith to believe that everything comes from nothing. It took reason, as I had just outlined here, that everything created came from a Creator. God.

Again, this is not meant to change anybody's mind or convert anybody though I do welcome any challenges to my SPECIFIC arguments and to my line of reasoning and the conclusions thereof. It is to dispute the notion that those who believe in God rely simply on just blind faith and wishful thinking. That we are just mindless drones believing in fairy tales that we were  raised on. Also, I just touch on one aspect of the existence of a Creator. The First Cause aspect. There is more. God's fingerprints are all around us. If time and motivation is there I might present my case for that as well. The case not just for a Creator but for a God.

The reason these issues are so important is that what  you believe, how you got here, is there any eternal accountability, determines your perspective on life and your perspective on life determines how you will ultimately behave. Not so much day to day, but that as well, but when you are morally challenged. It's one thing not to steal when you are rich and can have anything this world has to offer. It's quite another when you're not and really, really want something and can get away with just taking it.


Report to moderator   Logged
pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 04:25:54 AM »

BTW, nothing I say come from an origin thought. I have never had an origin thought or idea in my life. Everything I know is something that has been learned, said or taught by others. All I try to do is think it through for myself and determine what makes sense, what makes some sense and what is nonsense.
Report to moderator   Logged
devilsmile
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 11230


Hows life? Please, do tell.


« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 04:35:31 AM »

There are scientists who have great arguments why god would be real. And there are scientists who have great arguments why god would not be real.

You can't talk about this subject if you're biased. Most people are biased and are willing to look at things from the other side and refuse to acknowledge the other.

Anyway, I'm out of this conversation, just wanted to say that it's wether you want to believe or not. Adios.

"Don't talk about things you don't know shit about" - Some big bearded old man, somewhere, this one time
Report to moderator   Logged
Papper
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 10308


Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.


« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 04:48:04 AM »

I believe in the Matrix
Report to moderator   Logged
pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 04:48:36 AM »

There are scientists who have great arguments why god would be real. And there are scientists who have great arguments why god would not be real.

You can't talk about this subject if you're biased. Most people are biased and are willing to look at things from the other side and refuse to acknowledge the other.

Anyway, I'm out of this conversation, just wanted to say that it's wether you want to believe or not. Adios.

"Don't talk about things you don't know shit about" - Some big bearded old man, somewhere, this one time


Again, this is not meant to change anybody's mind or convert anybody though I do welcome any challenges to my SPECIFIC arguments and to my line of reasoning and the conclusions thereof.


My purpose is not to convert anybody and that these are matters of faith, i.e. belief in something in which there is no conclusive proof. It is simply to demonstrate that you can believe in a Creator based on reason, science and rational arguments...


"You can't talk about this subject if you're biased."


I feel that because I've agonize, and continue to agonize, over these issues, and have gone the full gamut of believer, Agnostic for twenty years, and now back to a believer, that I can address these questions and issues competently. 


 
Report to moderator   Logged
OB1
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3223


"Happiness equals reality minus expectations."


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 05:00:25 AM »

To make it short...
Answer = No.

Even a creator cannot create him-/her-/itself.
And a creator cannot emerge from nothing.
Nothing (read: "No thing") can emerge from nothing.
And nothing can exist forever.

So if we deal with "the existence of a creator"...
we will have to take into account the "creator" of said "creator" also...

HTH


Report to moderator   Logged

da_vinci
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5289


Cry me a river


« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2016, 05:17:18 AM »

Before a bigbang was another big bang, expansion, contraction, expansion, contraction, dual cycles, just like everywhere you find in universe. So - no begining/no end, these are just creations of our mind, because we exist in a reality that has "begining" and "end", it does not have to be applied to universe. When you have no end, there is no need to have a begining and vice versa. WHat you see around is not so complex as it looks. A simple mathematical equation with a few variables can be used to draw an extraordonary complex fractals, extraorinary. It means that from a great simplicity is possible to create a great complexity (and it is obvious from equations like these).

The funny thing is - we are the same universe and it's the universe that is trying to understand itself, we are not "by standers", it's universe reflecting on it's inner workings and most probably this is all there is to calculate, because, well... once you solve the puzzle - there's nothing else to solve. We may be close or far to solving that puzzle (and it probably would be a very dissapointing revelation for many, like... no "magic", no "interesting mystical story" or other extraoirdinary stuff, just a simple existence, plain, boring, routine, a simple mathematical equation), the fact is - we are still just a bunch of ants procereating on this shitball called earth, a mirco dust in a vast universe that is as significant as one ant in a forest is significant to us.
 In another sense - we are "gods", universe is "god", everything is "god", but in it's essence - it doesn't matter how you will call it, it's just of a non value for anyone.

Hope this helps
Report to moderator   Logged
Coffeed
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 2585


Athletes representative for Grifted Nutrition.


« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2016, 05:22:07 AM »

My question is, if there is a creator how fucked up is he that he lets all these religions just kill and torture each other?

Why not hit the reset button or settle the score? It's hard to believe some thing could be both a grand creator as well as a despicable asshole.
Report to moderator   Logged

da_vinci
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5289


Cry me a river


« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 05:26:08 AM »

My question is, if there is a creator how fucked up is he that he lets all these religions just kill and torture each other?

Why not hit the reset button or settle the score? It's hard to believe some thing could be both a grand creator as well as a despicable asshole.

That "creator" probably was a saddistic asshole and created a survival game. "Game of Genes", everyone are fighting for the Throne, everyone feel right and deserving it. The fittest survive, pretty much all there is to it. Enjoy the blood bath, world is on a brink of another big fight just to start the same cycle once again, just like in every other species when it gets too tight.
Report to moderator   Logged
Yamcha
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10874


"Probably a Gimmick" - Fitness Frenzy


« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 05:37:10 AM »



Report to moderator   Logged

a
johnnynoname
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 17833


"it's just that you're too damn swarthy"


« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2016, 05:42:34 AM »

My question is, if there is a creator how fucked up is he that he lets all these religions just kill and torture each other?

Why not hit the reset button or settle the score? It's hard to believe some thing could be both a grand creator as well as a despicable asshole.

God (or, Yahweh or whatever) is laissez-faire when it comes to all of this

he/she/it doesn't give a shit

he doesn't let any religion do anything...."God" gave us free will....part of that free will is to write books that are heavily misinterpreted and that cause some people to blow up government buildings


as an aside- just remember----religion and God ARE NOT mutually exclusive

you don't need to subscribe to Showtime to watch episodes of "Dexter"


btw- the above isn't a valid argument because i didn't copy and paste it from one of the fanatical authors that people like to quote when these megathreads that pit god vs atheists occur.......

I'm a weirdo because I'd like my opinions to be worded with my own words rather than say C.S. Lewis or Christopher Hitchens
Report to moderator   Logged
Rami
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 8004


One Hundred Percent


« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2016, 05:58:29 AM »

doesn't even matter
Report to moderator   Logged
pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2016, 06:22:35 AM »

To make it short...
Answer = No.

Even a creator cannot create him-/her-/itself.
And a creator cannot emerge from nothing.
Nothing (read: "No thing") can emerge from nothing.
And nothing can exist forever.

So if we deal with "the existence of a creator"...
we will have to take into account the "creator" of said "creator" also...

HTH




The premise is that a Creator has always existed and the argument for that has just been presented.

Saying that nothing can exist forever is just your opinion and you have no evidence to support that.

The argument is that the casual chain can't go backwards forever. It eventually begins with a creator. A creator always existed. It had no beginning and no end. The universe did have a beginning and it is predicted to have an end. So because it did not always existed it had to have something that created it.

You believe that something came from nothing. I don't know why that is a more rational argument than a Creator. Maybe if people stop imagining a Creator as a long haired man with a beard.

Do you have a rational argument and scientific reasoning to support your belief that something came from nothing? I used laws of causality to support the my belief. What laws in science do you have to support your belief that something came from nothing. Can you dispute any specific argument I just made?

But again, the purpose is not agreement, but that belief in a Creator can be made using rational arguments. I sure would like to hear your argument that something came from nothing. That the universe, which had a beginning, just began out of nothing, out of nowhere. What laws of causality or any laws of nature can you use to support your claim as I have just done? Using laws of nature and real world  observations ("things move" and that nothing moves without a cause).
Report to moderator   Logged
pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2016, 06:38:34 AM »

Before a bigbang was another big bang, expansion, contraction, expansion, contraction, dual cycles, just like everywhere you find in universe. So - no begining/no end, these are just creations of our mind, because we exist in a reality that has "begining" and "end", it does not have to be applied to universe. When you have no end, there is no need to have a begining and vice versa. WHat you see around is not so complex as it looks. A simple mathematical equation with a few variables can be used to draw an extraordonary complex fractals, extraorinary. It means that from a great simplicity is possible to create a great complexity (and it is obvious from equations like these).

The funny thing is - we are the same universe and it's the universe that is trying to understand itself, we are not "by standers", it's universe reflecting on it's inner workings and most probably this is all there is to calculate, because, well... once you solve the puzzle - there's nothing else to solve. We may be close or far to solving that puzzle (and it probably would be a very dissapointing revelation for many, like... no "magic", no "interesting mystical story" or other extraoirdinary stuff, just a simple existence, plain, boring, routine, a simple mathematical equation), the fact is - we are still just a bunch of ants procereating on this shitball called earth, a mirco dust in a vast universe that is as significant as one ant in a forest is significant to us.
 In another sense - we are "gods", universe is "god", everything is "god", but in it's essence - it doesn't matter how you will call it, it's just of a non value for anyone.

Hope this helps

No it doesn't help. Can you provide evidence to invalidate that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity "All time is relative to matter and since all matter began 13.7 billions years ago SO DID ALL TIME."

And again, theist are thought to be silly and irrational for believing in a creator then I hear:

Before a bigbang was another big bang, expansion, contraction, expansion, contraction, dual cycles, just like everywhere you find in universe. So - no begining/no end,

we are "gods", universe is "god", everything is "god"


Just a statement with no argument or evidence: the first one already proved by Einstein to be wrong and the second one just a flower child like pronouncement. "We are all God." "We are the Unverse". "We are everything".

Sounds rational and based on reason? Any arguments to support this claim? Can you please present this "simple" mathematical equation that you referred to.

Report to moderator   Logged
OB1
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3223


"Happiness equals reality minus expectations."


WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2016, 06:39:52 AM »

The premise is that a Creator has always existed and the argument for that has just been presented.

Saying that nothing can exist forever is just your opinion and you have no evidence to support that.

The argument is that the casual chain can't go backwards forever. It eventually begins with a creator. A creator always existed. It had no beginning and no end. The universe did have a beginning and it is predicted to have an end. So because it did not always existed it had to have something that created it.

You believe that something came from nothing. I don't know why that is a more rational argument than a Creator. Maybe if people stop imagining a Creator as a long haired man with a beard.

Do you have a rational argument and scientific reasoning to support your belief that something came from nothing? I used laws of causality to support the my belief. What laws in science do you have to support your belief that something came from nothing. Can you dispute any specific argument I just made?

But again, the purpose is not agreement, but that belief in a Creator can be made using rational arguments. I sure would like to hear your argument that something came from nothing. That the universe, which had a beginning, just began out of nothing, out of nowhere. What laws of causality or any laws of nature can you use to support your claim as I have just done? Using laws of nature and real world  observations ("things move" and that nothing moves without a cause).

Nothing can come from nothing, therefore something must have created the creator...
or else there is no possibility for a creator to exist out of thin air.
That's basically what I meant.

So...
If we have a creator we have something existing prior to the creator also which created said creator.
Basically some kind of endless loop.

The creator cannot create him-/her-/itself or appear out of nothing.

Report to moderator   Logged

pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2016, 06:48:06 AM »

My question is, if there is a creator how fucked up is he that he lets all these religions just kill and torture each other?

Why not hit the reset button or settle the score? It's hard to believe some thing could be both a grand creator as well as a despicable asshole.

A totally valid and what I believe to be the most important question that can be pose for a God that is supposed to be all loving.

But please note my argument is for a Creator. That a rational argument can be made for the existence of a Creator.

Whether there is a God that is moral and good is a separate and far more complex issue entirely.

I was always told that there will come a time where I will have to answer for myself. How I lived my life and was I in the end a good man. Did my moral bank account have more deposits than withdrawals. And I believe that.

But I also believe that I am not the only one who will have to answer for myself. Of all the worlds and all the scenarios that a presumably all powerful God could create, why this way? Why a world where bad and evil outweigh the good and bad?
Report to moderator   Logged
pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2016, 06:50:30 AM »

God (or, Yahweh or whatever) is laissez-faire when it comes to all of this

he/she/it doesn't give a shit

he doesn't let any religion do anything...."God" gave us free will....part of that free will is to write books that are heavily misinterpreted and that cause some people to blow up government buildings


as an aside- just remember----religion and God ARE NOT mutually exclusive

you don't need to subscribe to Showtime to watch episodes of "Dexter"


btw- the above isn't a valid argument because i didn't copy and paste it from one of the fanatical authors that people like to quote when these megathreads that pit god vs atheists occur.......

I'm a weirdo because I'd like my opinions to be worded with my own words rather than say C.S. Lewis or Christopher Hitchens

I don't know what category to put you in but you are a legit genius.
Report to moderator   Logged
GymTime
Getbig II
**
Gender: Male
Posts: 151


« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2016, 06:59:36 AM »

Nothing can come from nothing, therefore something must have created the creator...
or else there is no possibility for a creator to exist out of thin air.
That's basically what I meant.

So...
If we have a creator we have something existing prior to the creator also which created said creator.
Basically some kind of endless loop.

The creator cannot create him-/her-/itself or appear out of nothing.

If there is no God, then you would have the same problem...where did everything come from?  Nothing created something?

There IS a God.  The reason people struggle with this is because they think God has to be just like them, but they're wrong. 

There are three things that MUST be in place for our universe to exist.  Time, Space, and Matter.  Without time, there is no starting place.  Without Space, there is no place to put matter, and without matter, there would be nothing here.  God created all three in the very first verse of the Bible. 

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Where did God come from then?  Well, since God created time, then he must by necessity exist outside of time.  You cannot create something totally new such as time, if you exist inside of time.  God is not like man that is finite and can only understand things based on time because that is the universe we exist in.  It is hard for our minds to wrap themselves around the idea that God can have no beginning because he created time. 

So which makes more sense:

A:  God created this world.

or

B:  Nothing created everything.  It all just popped out of no where. 

The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.
Report to moderator   Logged
OB1
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 3223


"Happiness equals reality minus expectations."


WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2016, 07:12:13 AM »

If there is no God, then you would have the same problem...where did everything come from?  Nothing created something?

There IS a God.  The reason people struggle with this is because they think God has to be just like them, but they're wrong. 

There are three things that MUST be in place for our universe to exist.  Time, Space, and Matter.  Without time, there is no starting place.  Without Space, there is no place to put matter, and without matter, there would be nothing here.  God created all three in the very first verse of the Bible. 

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Where did God come from then?  Well, since God created time, then he must by necessity exist outside of time.  You cannot create something totally new such as time, if you exist inside of time.  God is not like man that is finite and can only understand things based on time because that is the universe we exist in.  It is hard for our minds to wrap themselves around the idea that God can have no beginning because he created time. 

So which makes more sense:

A:  God created this world.

or

B:  Nothing created everything.  It all just popped out of no where. 

The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.


or

C: We don't know.


Report to moderator   Logged

SuperTed
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5680


Rebirth


« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2016, 07:15:51 AM »

The mysteries of the universe. Mysteries that are too mind boggling for our minds to comprehend at the moment. How could something be infinite? How could something last forever? How could something have "always been there"?
 
I currently believe in a creator God although that could be more that I just hope there is a creator, since it will give life purpose.
Report to moderator   Logged
da_vinci
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5289


Cry me a river


« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2016, 07:18:02 AM »

No it doesn't help. Can you provide evidence to invalidate that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity "All time is relative to matter and since all matter began 13.7 billions years ago SO DID ALL TIME."

And again, theist are thought to be silly and irrational for believing in a creator then I hear:

Before a bigbang was another big bang, expansion, contraction, expansion, contraction, dual cycles, just like everywhere you find in universe. So - no begining/no end,

we are "gods", universe is "god", everything is "god"


Just a statement with no argument or evidence: the first one already proved by Einstein to be wrong and the second one just a flower child like pronouncement. "We are all God." "We are the Unverse". "We are everything".

Sounds rational and based on reason? Any arguments to support this claim? Can you please present this "simple" mathematical equation that you referred to.



What "time"? There's no such thing as time, only constant change/"happening", movement of electrons, quarks and whtever the hell else there is. If there's no time - speaking about the "begining" is futile. More likely it was just a phase of an infinite cycle, no clear boundaries, just a non ending transition of energy, a gigantic fluctuation/vibration, whole universe is one big vibration (they call it "string theory").
 If notion that we are the universe doesn't sound rational, than I don't what what does. Our physical bodies make us think that we are "separate", but it's the same matter, a material of space that's interwoven and one as a whole, so yeah... we are the universle itself, it's universe "thinking" about itself,  we are trying to calculate vibrations by using the same vibrations, it's a zero zum game, a finite calculation and if/when we get there - there won't be anything more to calculate. Universe is PROBABLY a lot more simple than we would like it to be and that is saddening for many people, because them they doesn't find a reason to suffer, they doesn't see a point to fight another day for their life... Believeing in god is better, it gives a hope, a meaning for this intelligent ape we call homo sapiens. At our core we are still just a collection of atoms, working based on core physical principles, a collection of single replicators called "genes" (which are pretty primitive one by one) working in company to help each other to survive (so creating a body).
Report to moderator   Logged
pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2016, 07:21:41 AM »

If there is no God, then you would have the same problem...where did everything come from?  Nothing created something?

There IS a God.  The reason people struggle with this is because they think God has to be just like them, but they're wrong. 

There are three things that MUST be in place for our universe to exist.  Time, Space, and Matter.  Without time, there is no starting place.  Without Space, there is no place to put matter, and without matter, there would be nothing here.  God created all three in the very first verse of the Bible. 

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Where did God come from then?  Well, since God created time, then he must by necessity exist outside of time. You cannot create something totally new such as time, if you exist inside of time.  God is not like man that is finite and can only understand things based on time because that is the universe we exist in.  It is hard for our minds to wrap themselves around the idea that God can have no beginning because he created time. 

So which makes more sense:

A:  God created this world.

or

B:  Nothing created everything.  It all just popped out of no where. 

The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.

I like the way you put this. Of course one could say, and do say, that time always existed. But science says otherwise.

Again my purpose was not to convince anybody or prove anything. Only that a rational argument based of science can be made for the existence of a Creator. It is science that says the universe is 13.7 billion years old. One would have to dismiss Einstein's General Theory of Relativity to say that time existed before that and therefore forfeit the mantle rationality and science based reasoning.

Report to moderator   Logged
NordicNerd
Getbig III
***
Posts: 900



« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2016, 07:24:12 AM »

...
Thomas Aquinas, whom nobody can credibly regard as unintelligent, made the not very startling observation that things move. But nothing moves for no reason. Something must cause that movement. But whatever cause that movement had to be caused by something else. But this causal chain cannot go backwards forever. It must have a beginning. An unmoved mover. Everything that begins must have a cause.  Nothing comes from nothing. So if there is no creator there can't be a creation, i.e. a universe.

But what if the universe is infinitely old? I remember Carl Sagan in the origin "Cosmos" aired in 1980 (I'm old) argued, an argument that I agreed with at the time, said that either a God always existed or the universe always existed. He was just eliminating one extra step. He had no need for God. Matter was his god.

Well, all SCIENTIST now agree that the universe is not infinitely old. The universe had a beginning - a Big Bang. And if the universe had a beginning then it didn't always exist. It didn't have to exist. And if things don't have to exist then it must have cause.
...
Now add to this premise a second, very LOGICAL, premise of the principle of causality. That nothing begins without a cause  and you get the conclusion that since there was a Big Bang there must be a, well, "Big Banger"..
...

The Aquinas argument is simply a variation of the Aristotelian argument for an ultimate cause.  You should check out the book "The five ways" by Anthony Kelly for a refutation. On that note- there is a reason modern biology is not Aristotelian.

The Big Bang argument is not valid either- the universe/multiverse could be an endless loop of big bangs- expansions and contractions to new big bangs, thus it could have no start or end- only cycles.

Finally, if nothing starts without a cause, why is there an exception for the "Big Banger"? This makes no sense and for me it invalidates the whole argument.

NN

Report to moderator   Logged
pellius
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 14355

RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011


« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2016, 07:24:22 AM »

The mysteries of the universe. Mysteries that are too mind boggling for our minds to comprehend at the moment. How could something be infinite? How could something last forever? How could something have "always been there"?
 
I currently believe in a creator God although that could be more that I just hope there is a creator, since it will give life purpose.

Why is it hard to believe that something outside of space and time always existed.
Report to moderator   Logged
Yamcha
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10874


"Probably a Gimmick" - Fitness Frenzy


« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2016, 07:26:01 AM »

Why is it hard to believe that something outside of space and time always existed.

because we haven't found the boundaries of space or time yet.
Report to moderator   Logged

a
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Theme created by Egad Community. Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!