Author Topic: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans  (Read 5881 times)

el numero uno

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To be honest, I never thought about it.



By Suzanne Sadedin, BSc.(Hons) in Zoology; Ph.D. in evolutionary biology.


Lifespan in general is determined by trade-offs between survival and reproduction. Wolves, the ancestors of dogs, can live 15-20 years*, roughly twice as long as comparable-sized dogs. They start breeding in the wild no younger than 2 years. They need to form pairs and establish a territory before breeding. Older wolves will often have help raising their pups from older juveniles who have not managed to mate or find territories. In contrast, most dogs can breed from 6-12 months of age, and they don't benefit from having territories, pair bonds or packs. Whereas wolves breed until they die, dog breeders will usually retire older females. So the whole life history of dogs is shifted to more of a "live-fast-die-young" style compared with wolves.

On top of that, artificial selection and inbreeding have created huge problems for dogs. Here's what dogs look like, when they're not bred to conform to human expectations:



Notice the:

- Long snouts. For breathing, panting and eating. Shorten the snout, and you get squished teeth, reduced heat tolerance and breathing problems.

- Broad skulls. For brains. Several modern breeds have been reduced to what Temple Grandin calls "brainless icepicks". Reducing brain size doesn't just make animals stupid, it also contributes to neurological issues that can kill them.

- Pointy ears. They don't get ear infections. Make them floppy, and you create a nice environment for pathogenic bacteria.

- Strong hips. They're for walking and running. Breed them into a cool-looking German Shepherd slouch and you'll get hip dysplasia.

- Slender, lithe forms. Carrying extra weight puts increased wear-and-tear on all body systems.

Striving to breed to an idealized "type" while ignoring basic physiological necessities doesn't create a robust organism. That's how we get tortured monstrosities like English Bulldogs, who can barely breathe without snorting and whose pups must be cut out of the mother's womb because she can no longer deliver them. Even seemingly harmless traits often bring a higher probability of serious health problems. White fur, for example, is often accompanied by neurological deficits ranging from subtle behavioural abnormalities, to deafness or even early death. Generally speaking, working dogs have sustained longer lifespans because they're required to be physically fit to do their jobs. Show dogs are mostly just required to meet peculiar aesthetic requirements and be easily managed. The lethargy resulting from chronic health problems is actually a positive for champions who dominate the gene pool, even if it shortens their lives. (It's a bit like foot-binding, whose victims were prized as wives for their passive and mild behaviour, which resulted from being crippled and in constant pain).

Loss of genetic diversity also shortens lifespans. In a healthy population, essentially all individuals have several defective genes, but each defective gene is rare in the population as a whole. Each individual holds two copies of each gene, so in a randomly mating population, it's rare for an individual to have two defective copies. Usually, as long as the individual has at least one good copy, it will be fine. Health problems only arise when an individual has two defective copies. But when the population experiences a genetic bottleneck -- that is, only a few individuals get to breed -- any defects they have will spread to a large proportion of the population. That means that when these individuals mate, a large proportion of their offspring will carry two copies of the genetic defect and therefore be unhealthy.

Unfortunately, for the last century or so, dog breeders have actively pursued a misguided strategy of purifying breeds by demonizing cross-breeding and allowing only "champions" to breed. I recall reading somewhere that the entire Standard Poodle population consists of effectively about 7 dogs. Health-wise, this is terrible. You can't eliminate all the subtle genetic problems that plague breeds by selective breeding. They arise faster than you can purge them. Whilst some of the more severe defects have been reduced by conscientious breeders who test their dogs before breeding, this selective breeding further narrows the gene pool, and has thus promoted many more defective genes that cause mild reductions in health and lifespan. We can't test for these defects, and consequently they are now prevalent throughout most non-working breeds.



https://www.quora.com/Why-do-dogs-have-such-short-lives








PS: bodybuilding related



The True Adonis

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 07:50:15 PM »
To be honest, I never thought about it.



By Suzanne Sadedin, BSc.(Hons) in Zoology; Ph.D. in evolutionary biology.


Lifespan in general is determined by trade-offs between survival and reproduction. Wolves, the ancestors of dogs, can live 15-20 years*, roughly twice as long as comparable-sized dogs. They start breeding in the wild no younger than 2 years. They need to form pairs and establish a territory before breeding. Older wolves will often have help raising their pups from older juveniles who have not managed to mate or find territories. In contrast, most dogs can breed from 6-12 months of age, and they don't benefit from having territories, pair bonds or packs. Whereas wolves breed until they die, dog breeders will usually retire older females. So the whole life history of dogs is shifted to more of a "live-fast-die-young" style compared with wolves.

On top of that, artificial selection and inbreeding have created huge problems for dogs. Here's what dogs look like, when they're not bred to conform to human expectations:



Notice the:

- Long snouts. For breathing, panting and eating. Shorten the snout, and you get squished teeth, reduced heat tolerance and breathing problems.

- Broad skulls. For brains. Several modern breeds have been reduced to what Temple Grandin calls "brainless icepicks". Reducing brain size doesn't just make animals stupid, it also contributes to neurological issues that can kill them.

- Pointy ears. They don't get ear infections. Make them floppy, and you create a nice environment for pathogenic bacteria.

- Strong hips. They're for walking and running. Breed them into a cool-looking German Shepherd slouch and you'll get hip dysplasia.

- Slender, lithe forms. Carrying extra weight puts increased wear-and-tear on all body systems.

Striving to breed to an idealized "type" while ignoring basic physiological necessities doesn't create a robust organism. That's how we get tortured monstrosities like English Bulldogs, who can barely breathe without snorting and whose pups must be cut out of the mother's womb because she can no longer deliver them. Even seemingly harmless traits often bring a higher probability of serious health problems. White fur, for example, is often accompanied by neurological deficits ranging from subtle behavioural abnormalities, to deafness or even early death. Generally speaking, working dogs have sustained longer lifespans because they're required to be physically fit to do their jobs. Show dogs are mostly just required to meet peculiar aesthetic requirements and be easily managed. The lethargy resulting from chronic health problems is actually a positive for champions who dominate the gene pool, even if it shortens their lives. (It's a bit like foot-binding, whose victims were prized as wives for their passive and mild behaviour, which resulted from being crippled and in constant pain).

Loss of genetic diversity also shortens lifespans. In a healthy population, essentially all individuals have several defective genes, but each defective gene is rare in the population as a whole. Each individual holds two copies of each gene, so in a randomly mating population, it's rare for an individual to have two defective copies. Usually, as long as the individual has at least one good copy, it will be fine. Health problems only arise when an individual has two defective copies. But when the population experiences a genetic bottleneck -- that is, only a few individuals get to breed -- any defects they have will spread to a large proportion of the population. That means that when these individuals mate, a large proportion of their offspring will carry two copies of the genetic defect and therefore be unhealthy.

Unfortunately, for the last century or so, dog breeders have actively pursued a misguided strategy of purifying breeds by demonizing cross-breeding and allowing only "champions" to breed. I recall reading somewhere that the entire Standard Poodle population consists of effectively about 7 dogs. Health-wise, this is terrible. You can't eliminate all the subtle genetic problems that plague breeds by selective breeding. They arise faster than you can purge them. Whilst some of the more severe defects have been reduced by conscientious breeders who test their dogs before breeding, this selective breeding further narrows the gene pool, and has thus promoted many more defective genes that cause mild reductions in health and lifespan. We can't test for these defects, and consequently they are now prevalent throughout most non-working breeds.



https://www.quora.com/Why-do-dogs-have-such-short-lives








PS: bodybuilding related



- Long snouts. For breathing, panting and eating. Shorten the snout, and you get squished teeth, reduced heat tolerance and breathing problems.

- Broad skulls. For brains. Several modern breeds have been reduced to what Temple Grandin calls "brainless icepicks". Reducing brain size doesn't just make animals stupid, it also contributes to neurological issues that can kill them.

- Pointy ears. They don't get ear infections. Make them floppy, and you create a nice environment for pathogenic bacteria.

- Strong hips. They're for walking and running. Breed them into a cool-looking German Shepherd slouch and you'll get hip dysplasia.

- Slender, lithe forms


Greyhounds have all the above traits and are selectively bred.  They live 12-20 years usually.

el numero uno

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 07:55:29 PM »
- Long snouts. For breathing, panting and eating. Shorten the snout, and you get squished teeth, reduced heat tolerance and breathing problems.

- Broad skulls. For brains. Several modern breeds have been reduced to what Temple Grandin calls "brainless icepicks". Reducing brain size doesn't just make animals stupid, it also contributes to neurological issues that can kill them.

- Pointy ears. They don't get ear infections. Make them floppy, and you create a nice environment for pathogenic bacteria.

- Strong hips. They're for walking and running. Breed them into a cool-looking German Shepherd slouch and you'll get hip dysplasia.

- Slender, lithe forms


Greyhounds have all the above traits and are selectively bred.  They live 12-20 years usually.

Those are the positive traits that most breeds do not possess. You didn't even read the article.  :D

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2016, 08:13:50 PM »
Those are the positive traits that most breeds do not possess. You didn't even read the article.  :D
I did.  Here is my point that you missed.  Artificial selection, like the in case of Greyhounds, breed those traits and as a result through this artificial selection, Greyhounds also tend to live long lives on average, with many living to 20.

So I don't think the article is completely fair when they call dog breeding as misguided and detrimental. 

el numero uno

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2016, 08:28:14 PM »
I did.  Here is my point that you missed.  Artificial selection, like the in case of Greyhounds, breed those traits and as a result through this artificial selection, Greyhounds also tend to live long lives on average, with many living to 20.

So I don't think the article is completely fair when they call dog breeding as misguided and detrimental.  

Physical traits are not the only thing that matters.  :D Even then, greyhounds would be the exception, not the rule.



Quote
Effective population size (EPS)  17

EPS is the measure of how many individuals are contributing genetically to a breed population (KC registered dogs). It is a measure of the size of the gene pool in a breed. Lower than 100 is considered critical by conservationists and below 50 puts a breed at grave risk.


http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/greyhound/




When you have a population with such a small gene pool, huge problems may arise. If you ever read about how bananas are endangered because a fungus known as Fusarium oxysporum (Panama disease) may completely destroy them, guess what, comercial bananas are propagated asexually. They are all clones from just a few varieties (<10).

It's the same with any species out there. If an individual from a population with a very small gene pool is highly susceptible to X or Y disease, you can bet all the individuals from the same breed, variety, etc are also highly susceptible.

el numero uno

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2016, 08:31:39 PM »
BTW I'm not saying that selective breeding is wrong. Humans have been able to increase milk and meat production, plant yields, etc thanks to it.

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 01:37:23 AM »
One day people will be selectively bred for the Olympia stage. That's probably what palumbo just did.

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2016, 03:32:41 AM »
One day people will be selectively bred for the Olympia stage. That's probably what palumbo just did.

And Anabolichalo

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 03:40:17 AM »
To be honest, I have thought about this many many times. We do research on lab rats and we breed animals to fit our needs.

It is normal for most, but if you start viewing humans as animals (meaning you disregard the notion that we should be special and worth more) and start comparing how we treat other animals it's pretty sick and twisted.

We're the natural worlds supervillain.


Radical Plato

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2016, 04:03:37 AM »
I have known this for so long and used to preach about how shitty the whole entire pet industry is.  They treat dogs (and cats) as a commodity, breed to excess and destroy the surplus. So people think they are rescuing a dog but they are actually causing healthy dogs to suffer and die by participating in the pet industry.  Not to mention the genetic deformities bred into dogs through selective breeding.  I think pet ownership highlights the worst of human nature and not the best.  Amazing how people can feel good about such a perverse industry. But hey, who cares about the rights of animals when they make you feel good, right.
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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 04:33:59 AM »
- Long snouts. For breathing, panting and eating. Shorten the snout, and you get squished teeth, reduced heat tolerance and breathing problems.

- Broad skulls. For brains. Several modern breeds have been reduced to what Temple Grandin calls "brainless icepicks". Reducing brain size doesn't just make animals stupid, it also contributes to neurological issues that can kill them.

- Pointy ears. They don't get ear infections. Make them floppy, and you create a nice environment for pathogenic bacteria.

- Strong hips. They're for walking and running. Breed them into a cool-looking German Shepherd slouch and you'll get hip dysplasia.

- Slender, lithe forms


Greyhounds have all the above traits and are selectively bred.  They live 12-20 years usually.

True that slipping an Obama vest on them helps add 5 years to their lives.

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 04:35:59 AM »
I have known this for so long and used to preach about how shitty the whole entire pet industry is.  They treat dogs (and cats) as a commodity, breed to excess and destroy the surplus. So people think they are rescuing a dog but they are actually causing healthy dogs to suffer and die by participating in the pet industry.  Not to mention the genetic deformities bred into dogs through selective breeding.  I think pet ownership highlights the worst of human nature and not the best.  Amazing how people can feel good about such a perverse industry. But hey, who cares about the rights of animals when they make you feel good, right.

Agreed.
Not to mention castration.
People that do it should be next in line.
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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2016, 04:39:06 AM »
I did.  Here is my point that you missed.  Artificial selection, like the in case of Greyhounds, breed those traits and as a result through this artificial selection, Greyhounds also tend to live long lives on average, with many living to 20.

So I don't think the article is completely fair when they call dog breeding as misguided and detrimental. 

I think the nadir of artificial canine selection and the breed that most point to as the "evils of breeding" is the lamentable modern English Bulldog.

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 04:46:04 AM »
I did.  Here is my point that you missed.  Artificial selection, like the in case of Greyhounds, breed those traits and as a result through this artificial selection, Greyhounds also tend to live long lives on average, with many living to 20.

So I don't think the article is completely fair when they call dog breeding as misguided and detrimental.  
Greyhound breeding is the worst of the industry. The life of the Greyhound is one of misery, fear, mistreatment, and finally a painful death. Thousands of Greyhounds are produced each year, many more than are needed. Dogs that are considered too slow to make it are killed. Any dog that is injured, or develop muzzle sores or really any problems is killed. If they win they live. If they lose they die. Very few make it to 4 years old. Most end up with heatstroke, heart attack, injuries, sickness, broken legs, they all die. Dogs suffer at every track of neglect, and soon meet a cruel death. Cramming them in crates for transport to the track, sometimes a hundred miles or more, many die on the trip. Many suffer from malnutrition, and dehydration. Without the proper air conditioning they die from heatstroke. Any dog that slows down or becomes unprofitable is killed.
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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2016, 05:46:15 AM »
I did.  Here is my point that you missed.  Artificial selection, like the in case of Greyhounds, breed those traits and as a result through this artificial selection, Greyhounds also tend to live long lives on average, with many living to 20.

So I don't think the article is completely fair when they call dog breeding as misguided and detrimental. 
greyhounds are also sight hounds. And as you know, among the oldest of dog breeds. One could even say that they are working breeds, because they were bred for speed---for speed the animal needs to be able breathe freely and deeply (deep chest), be lightweight, agile, and have good sight. And in fact, dog species are known for their speed and endurance. They run down their prey. Which is opposite of heavily bodied cats, which are more stalk and abush predators. All pretty much accept the Cheetah. Which has a more dog like body.


Also, speaking of breeding and genetics, it's odd how the breed of "pit bull" can look like it has a long snout, pointy or floppy ears, or have that short snout "bully" look. I believe that this is because many of these dogs are mutts and or the breeders play fast and loose with breeding. That many of these dogs have more genetic diversity than people give them credit for.

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 06:27:44 AM »
To be honest, I never thought about it.



By Suzanne Sadedin, BSc.(Hons) in Zoology; Ph.D. in evolutionary biology.

On top of that, artificial selection and inbreeding have created huge problems for dogs. Here's what dogs look like, when they're not bred to conform to human expectations:

Notice the:

- Pointy ears. They don't get ear infections. Make them floppy, and you create a nice environment for pathogenic bacteria.

Then why is it that every single german sheppard i had developed ear infections regularly, and other similar breeds with drop ears don't?


El Diablo Blanco

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2016, 06:39:08 AM »
It doesn't just stop with dogs.  Same with foods we eat.  Selective breeding plus drugs to make cows produce more milk, to make them grow faster, making chickens fatter, making pigs fatter.  At least we don't ingest dogs but are fucked by the foods we eat.

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2016, 09:22:24 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D very interesting, bulldogs are probably the worst case of selective breeding ruining a breed.
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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 09:49:03 AM »
To be honest, I never thought about it.



By Suzanne Sadedin, BSc.(Hons) in Zoology; Ph.D. in evolutionary biology.


Lifespan in general is determined by trade-offs between survival and reproduction. Wolves, the ancestors of dogs, can live 15-20 years*, roughly twice as long as comparable-sized dogs. They start breeding in the wild no younger than 2 years. They need to form pairs and establish a territory before breeding. Older wolves will often have help raising their pups from older juveniles who have not managed to mate or find territories. In contrast, most dogs can breed from 6-12 months of age, and they don't benefit from having territories, pair bonds or packs. Whereas wolves breed until they die, dog breeders will usually retire older females. So the whole life history of dogs is shifted to more of a "live-fast-die-young" style compared with wolves.

On top of that, artificial selection and inbreeding have created huge problems for dogs. Here's what dogs look like, when they're not bred to conform to human expectations:



Notice the:

- Long snouts. For breathing, panting and eating. Shorten the snout, and you get squished teeth, reduced heat tolerance and breathing problems.

- Broad skulls. For brains. Several modern breeds have been reduced to what Temple Grandin calls "brainless icepicks". Reducing brain size doesn't just make animals stupid, it also contributes to neurological issues that can kill them.

- Pointy ears. They don't get ear infections. Make them floppy, and you create a nice environment for pathogenic bacteria.

- Strong hips. They're for walking and running. Breed them into a cool-looking German Shepherd slouch and you'll get hip dysplasia.

- Slender, lithe forms. Carrying extra weight puts increased wear-and-tear on all body systems.

Striving to breed to an idealized "type" while ignoring basic physiological necessities doesn't create a robust organism. That's how we get tortured monstrosities like English Bulldogs, who can barely breathe without snorting and whose pups must be cut out of the mother's womb because she can no longer deliver them. Even seemingly harmless traits often bring a higher probability of serious health problems. White fur, for example, is often accompanied by neurological deficits ranging from subtle behavioural abnormalities, to deafness or even early death. Generally speaking, working dogs have sustained longer lifespans because they're required to be physically fit to do their jobs. Show dogs are mostly just required to meet peculiar aesthetic requirements and be easily managed. The lethargy resulting from chronic health problems is actually a positive for champions who dominate the gene pool, even if it shortens their lives. (It's a bit like foot-binding, whose victims were prized as wives for their passive and mild behaviour, which resulted from being crippled and in constant pain).

Loss of genetic diversity also shortens lifespans. In a healthy population, essentially all individuals have several defective genes, but each defective gene is rare in the population as a whole. Each individual holds two copies of each gene, so in a randomly mating population, it's rare for an individual to have two defective copies. Usually, as long as the individual has at least one good copy, it will be fine. Health problems only arise when an individual has two defective copies. But when the population experiences a genetic bottleneck -- that is, only a few individuals get to breed -- any defects they have will spread to a large proportion of the population. That means that when these individuals mate, a large proportion of their offspring will carry two copies of the genetic defect and therefore be unhealthy.

Unfortunately, for the last century or so, dog breeders have actively pursued a misguided strategy of purifying breeds by demonizing cross-breeding and allowing only "champions" to breed. I recall reading somewhere that the entire Standard Poodle population consists of effectively about 7 dogs. Health-wise, this is terrible. You can't eliminate all the subtle genetic problems that plague breeds by selective breeding. They arise faster than you can purge them. Whilst some of the more severe defects have been reduced by conscientious breeders who test their dogs before breeding, this selective breeding further narrows the gene pool, and has thus promoted many more defective genes that cause mild reductions in health and lifespan. We can't test for these defects, and consequently they are now prevalent throughout most non-working breeds.



https://www.quora.com/Why-do-dogs-have-such-short-lives








PS: bodybuilding related




She's essentially saying Wolves were the original dogs.  Fact!

el numero uno

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2016, 10:17:09 AM »
I have known this for so long and used to preach about how shitty the whole entire pet industry is.  They treat dogs (and cats) as a commodity, breed to excess and destroy the surplus. So people think they are rescuing a dog but they are actually causing healthy dogs to suffer and die by participating in the pet industry.  Not to mention the genetic deformities bred into dogs through selective breeding.  I think pet ownership highlights the worst of human nature and not the best.  Amazing how people can feel good about such a perverse industry. But hey, who cares about the rights of animals when they make you feel good, right.

To be fair, I don't think most people know about this. In my case, although I was aware that a small gene pool is detrimental, I never though about dog breeding until I came across the article.

And also to be fair, I think that even if most people knew about it, they wouldn't care anyway. :D




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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2016, 11:43:52 AM »
The real deal you should do is like that Ethan Hawke movie where he tames a wild dog (wolf?) and feeds it and they become friends and live in his cabin. That dog chose to live with a human so it's all good there.

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2016, 12:02:24 PM »
The real deal you should do is like that Ethan Hawke movie where he tames a wild dog (wolf?) and feeds it and they become friends and live in his cabin. That dog chose to live with a human so it's all good there.
People who have tried to raise wolves usually are very cautious. They attack humans when they see or perceive weakness. Read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2016, 12:03:02 PM »
The real deal you should do is like that Ethan Hawke movie where he tames a wild dog (wolf?) and feeds it and they become friends and live in his cabin. That dog chose to live with a human so it's all good there.
white fang was the movie...and to illustrate the point below on the backward evolution of the bulldog..
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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2016, 12:03:54 PM »
People who have tried to raise wolves usually are very cautious. They attack humans when they see or perceive weakness. Read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox

Wolves are clearly Getbiggers.

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Re: Good read about dogs and all the genetic problems caused by humans
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2016, 12:06:00 PM »
Wolves are clearly Getbiggers.

Do wolves prefer Trannies and fly first class exclusively?