Author Topic: So what's the verdict on Apple?  (Read 4012 times)

pellius

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So what's the verdict on Apple?
« on: February 26, 2016, 06:15:32 AM »
Should they or shouldn't they and do they have the law on their side?

ProudVirgin69

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 07:34:22 AM »
They should not compromise their product by designing it with a security vulnerability, as requested by the FBI.  I am no constitutional scholar, but it seems like this would violate the 4th amendment (as much as it still means these days  ::) )

pellius

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 04:55:07 PM »
They should not compromise their product by designing it with a security vulnerability, as requested by the FBI.  I am no constitutional scholar, but it seems like this would violate the 4th amendment (as much as it still means these days  ::) )

Yes, I believe the law is on the side of Apple. I don't get the almost universal outrage against them.

beakdoctor

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2016, 07:01:14 AM »
Pellius, legally this is a very simple issue.  The FBI obtained a search warrant, issued by a judge to search the contents of ONE phone.
The warrant was issued based on probable cause, specific facts and specific circumstances related to one cell phone that was operated by one person. The FBI realized that they have only so many chances to try to crack the phones passcode. This is because apple phones have a security measure which erases the phones content if the wrong password is put in ten times. The FBI has asked apple to disable their security measure on this one phone so they can gather information about the couple who murdered 14 people in san bernadino.

This is not about every phone, it is not about making apple hand over their technology to the FBI, it is not about carte blanch authority for the FBI to search all phones. The FBI is not asking apple to decipher the passwword. All of that would not be authorized by a search warrant.

The FBI is asking apple to deisable the security measure on this one phone related to one specific event. It is not setting a precedent it's the standard by which all search warant have been issued for decades.  The FBI already has the warrant they are asking for apples help.

Oddly enough if apple wins and the judge says apple cant be forced to unlock the security on this phone, then the FBI will have to figure out a way to break into the phone and if they do, they will then have the back door entry into everyphone. The FBI obviously has a strong case to search the phone. The judge may say to the FBI that they have the search warrant its upto tjhe FBI to figure it out on their own. I think apple picked the wrong battle to fight though in this particular matter. In my opinion apple looks like shit now for not helping out. I'd like to know what the family members of those 14 people think.

Irongrip400

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2016, 07:08:34 AM »
Pellius, legally this is a very simple issue.  The FBI obtained a search warrant, issued by a judge to search the contents of ONE phone.
The warrant was issued based on probable cause, specific facts and specific circumstances related to one cell phone that was operated by one person. The FBI realized that they have only so many chances to try to crack the phones passcode. This is because apple phones have a security measure which erases the phones content if the wrong password is put in ten times. The FBI has asked apple to disable their security measure on this one phone so they can gather information about the couple who murdered 14 people in san bernadino.

This is not about every phone, it is not about making apple hand over their technology to the FBI, it is not about carte blanch authority for the FBI to search all phones. The FBI is not asking apple to decipher the passwword. All of that would not be authorized by a search warrant.

The FBI is asking apple to deisable the security measure on this one phone related to one specific event. It is not setting a precedent it's the standard by which all search warant have been issued for decades.  The FBI already has the warrant they are asking for apples help.

Oddly enough if apple wins and the judge says apple cant be forced to unlock the security on this phone, then the FBI will have to figure out a way to break into the phone and if they do, they will then have the back door entry into everyphone. The FBI obviously has a strong case to search the phone. The judge may say to the FBI that they have the search warrant its upto tjhe FBI to figure it out on their own. I think apple picked the wrong battle to fight though in this particular matter. In my opinion apple looks like shit now for not helping out. I'd like to know what the family members of those 14 people think.

It's the proverbial "line in the sand" and once crossed there's no going back.

beakdoctor

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2016, 07:40:43 AM »
It's the proverbial "line in the sand" and once crossed there's no going back.

No its not. It's case specific. Its been the same way for years.

Now a judge very well may rule that there is no authority to force apples hands in this but the matter of wether or not a search of the phone is justified has already been determined.

Think about this: if apple wins then the feds will have to develope the technology on their own and when they do they will have a key to evey phone. The authority to use that technology will still be determined by a judge based on case specific circumstances.

If apple loses then they will be forced to do it, lose a public battle and it could create new case law.

pellius

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2016, 07:46:48 AM »
It's simple to me as well but from a different perspective. I look at it this way: If apple had a lock box and a key to the lock box then of course the FBI can subpoena the key. In this case Apple does not have the key. The government is forcing Apple to make the key. To make the software that currently doesn't exist. The government can't force you to work for them.

And no matter who makes that key, whether the government or Apple, there will be a "back door" and eventually others will get it. This is more of a danger. 

mr.turbo

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2016, 12:40:53 PM »
long story short the "anti-terror" authorities don't like having the judiciary authorise access to private data. 

At the moment NSA has the monopoly on this so if the FBI goes this route it undermines them. 

this is my feeling for it, however it would be prudent to see what a legal expert has to say.
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mr.turbo

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 12:50:01 PM »
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HTexan

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2016, 04:57:04 PM »
Of course not. Backdoor is over stepping.
A

Griffith

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2016, 11:22:40 PM »
I got locked out of my old iPhone4 two years ago , failed all the passwords and it seemed I would lose everything on it. The tech people at various shops me there was no way, it was impossible etc, but I didn't give up, I kept searching online for a way.

Then I bought a program online and I was able to recover everything.

Or else I would have lost 3 months worth of travel pictures.. :o

Disgusted

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2016, 12:24:28 AM »
No its not. It's case specific. Its been the same way for years.

Now a judge very well may rule that there is no authority to force apples hands in this but the matter of wether or not a search of the phone is justified has already been determined.

Think about this: if apple wins then the feds will have to develope the technology on their own and when they do they will have a key to evey phone. The authority to use that technology will still be determined by a judge based on case specific circumstances.

If apple loses then they will be forced to do it, lose a public battle and it could create new case law.


Wrong, Apple can't "break a security code" because none exists. The phone is 256 bit AES encrypted. Unless they can figure out the password no one can get into the phone. What the fbi is asking  is for Apple to build a backdoor to the encryption in future products.

SOMEPARTS

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2016, 02:38:49 AM »
I got locked out of my old iPhone4 two years ago , failed all the passwords and it seemed I would lose everything on it. The tech people at various shops me there was no way, it was impossible etc, but I didn't give up, I kept searching online for a way.

Then I bought a program online and I was able to recover everything.

Or else I would have lost 3 months worth of travel pictures.. :o



Right, two years ago.. but the new OS is more solid in that respect. That's why they don't want to give it up. If they do they might as well just sell the company to the govt because people all over the world won't trust their own phones.

pellius

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2016, 03:16:06 AM »


Right, two years ago.. but the new OS is more solid in that respect. That's why they don't want to give it up. If they do they might as well just sell the company to the govt because people all over the world won't trust their own phones.

Yes, people don't see the long term implications of this.

And, again, the government can't force you to work for them.

beakdoctor

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2016, 09:36:14 AM »

 What the fbi is asking  is for Apple to build a backdoor to the encryption in future products.

Hahahaha not true at all.

What the fbi is asking for is for apple to create a backdoor  to this specific phone and only this phone. Now it may be true that Apple is not capable of doing that, but that is a point of contention at the heart of this matter. Apple is fearful that it will set a precedent for future products. Which is assnine because unlawfull search and siezure is already governed by the 4th amendment.  Even if the fbi were to request this technology be used in the future it would still have to meet the probable cause standard and be authorized by warrant issued by a judge.

Dave D

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2016, 09:56:27 AM »
No its not. It's case specific. Its been the same way for years.

Now a judge very well may rule that there is no authority to force apples hands in this but the matter of wether or not a search of the phone is justified has already been determined.

Think about this: if apple wins then the feds will have to develope the technology on their own and when they do they will have a key to evey phone. The authority to use that technology will still be determined by a judge based on case specific circumstances.

If apple loses then they will be forced to do it, lose a public battle and it could create new case law.

I understand what you're saying but if apple loses than the feds will have a key to every phone regardless, this isn't and won't be a singular event.

The comparison isn't having a locksmith open a sealed door that he didn't manufactur, it's asking that locksmith to create a universal key that will open one advanced lock (and in turn every lock made), it's a technology that doesn't exsist.

Multiple parties have offered to hack the phone for the fbi, why haven't/won't they take up this offer? Are they afraid that outside groups will have access to information that is not intended for them.......

Also what is your point as afar as the feelings of the families of the 14 victims? This was a tragic situation and nothing will bring those people back, nothing found on the phone will give the people closure.  We have murders everyday in America, EVERY SINGLE DAY, with families as victims. No justice will be given for opening these phones.

Ultimately it will be determined in the courts, apple should have enough money to hire a defense team go prove the subpoena's are illegal.

The government isn't supposed to be above the law.

mr.turbo

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2016, 10:39:13 AM »
Hahahaha not true at all.

What the fbi is asking for is for apple to create a backdoor  to this specific phone and only this phone. Now it may be true that Apple is not capable of doing that, but that is a point of contention at the heart of this matter. Apple is fearful that it will set a precedent for future products. Which is assnine because unlawfull search and siezure is already governed by the 4th amendment.  Even if the fbi were to request this technology be used in the future it would still have to meet the probable cause standard and be authorized by warrant issued by a judge.

nice fairy tale

NSA already collects ALL your data without warrant

Using PRISM, the cover name for collection of user data from Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple and five other U.S.-based companies, the NSA could obtain all communications to or from any specified target. The companies had no choice but to comply with the government's request for data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/edward-snowden-after-months-of-nsa-revelations-says-his-missions-accomplished/2013/12/23/49fc36de-6c1c-11e3-a523-fe73f0ff6b8d_story.html

"

Dave D

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2016, 10:47:12 AM »
nice fairy tale

NSA already collects ALL your data without warrant

Using PRISM, the cover name for collection of user data from Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple and five other U.S.-based companies, the NSA could obtain all communications to or from any specified target. The companies had no choice but to comply with the government's request for data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/edward-snowden-after-months-of-nsa-revelations-says-his-missions-accomplished/2013/12/23/49fc36de-6c1c-11e3-a523-fe73f0ff6b8d_story.html



Government running a mock, sadly this isn't anything new.

mr.turbo

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2016, 01:12:08 PM »
Government running a mock, sadly this isn't anything new.

right?

I gather the issue hasn't been tested in the court which is what the fuss is about. 
"

Disgusted

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2016, 03:33:42 PM »
Hahahaha not true at all.

What the fbi is asking for is for apple to create a backdoor  to this specific phone and only this phone. Now it may be true that Apple is not capable of doing that, but that is a point of contention at the heart of this matter. Apple is fearful that it will set a precedent for future products. Which is assnine because unlawfull search and siezure is already governed by the 4th amendment.  Even if the fbi were to request this technology be used in the future it would still have to meet the probable cause standard and be authorized by warrant issued by a judge.

Show me exactly where the FBI is asking Apple to create a back door on the specific phone.

Schnauzer

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2016, 03:39:56 PM »
Government running a mock, sadly this isn't anything new.



Running a mock what??

Dave D

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2016, 04:22:30 PM »


Running a mock what??

LOL I'm sorry I meant amuck.  I think my spell correct auto corrects.

BIG ACH

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2016, 12:11:03 AM »
Show me exactly where the FBI is asking Apple to create a back door on the specific phone.

Apple's open letter to the customers specifically States this:

Specifically, the FBI wants us to make a new version of the iPhone operating system, circumventing several important security features, and install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation. In the wrong hands, this software — which does not exist today — would have the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone’s physical possession.

http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

evandatp

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2016, 12:14:11 AM »
LOL I'm sorry I meant amuck.  I think my spell correct auto corrects.
Amok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

axestream

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Re: So what's the verdict on Apple?
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 02:55:06 PM »