Great Free Market Thinkers: Mises, Hayek, and Friedman

[mr.turbo]

1. You don't own a business. No how no way.

2. Stop making an ass of yourself. I'm not being a dick when I say that. You are absolutely clueless. You seriously sound like a brainwashed Econ student. I mean this with all sincerity.

It's ok to have strong feelings about something but that does not make you correct. You can huff and puff till your red in the face...we will still be waiting here patiently for a single example of the so called free market in action. You think it would be pretty easy to provide a single example given all the passion! I know... *discussion* is not your forte, perhaps someone else can provide this.

I'm sorry if these facts make you uncomfortable, again try to remain open to new sources of information.

[Coach is Back!]

It's ok to have strong feelings about something but that does not make you correct. You can huff and puff till your red in the face...we will still be waiting here patiently for a single example of the so called free market in action. You think it would be pretty easy to provide a single example given all the passion! I know... *discussion* is not your forte, perhaps someone else can provide this.

I'm sorry if these facts make you uncomfortable, again try to remain open to new sources of information.

You're trolling. No one is this stupid.

[Griffith]

This thread is about the free market advocates Ludwig von Mises, Milton Friedman, and other economists  of their ilk, no?

I get it....as an entrepreneur, you view every single tax to be an unjust penalty, robbing you of what you have worked for.  That doesn't change the fact that the "free market" concept, as originally conceived by Adam Smith and later adopted by the Chicago/Austrian Schools of Economics has never--and will never--existed as anything beyond a theoretical framework.

I suggest you read a book or two so that your worldview can become a bit more nuanced than "taxes = bad".   

Singapore has very low or no taxes and also Dubai.

This encourages higher investment, more businesses, more jobs and more people having more money to spend.

Socialism is an even more 'theoretical framework' than a free-market system.

[mr.turbo]

business people need to actually understand the way the real world operates. one cannot afford to indulge in such ridiculous fantasies and delusions.  There's a lot of money stake, it not going to be based on something that doesn't exist.  

Rockefeller knew this because he was interested in making money. There's another example.  The man became the richest person in history by undermining the free market at every opportunity.

 "competition is sin" I guess he was trolling.

ideological fanaticism does not prove anything.

[El Diablo Blanco]

With all the pro socialist talk on this board, I think it's important to balance it with some great free market thinking.  This thread is dedicated to Ludwig Von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, and Milton Friedman.

Capitalism needs neither propaganda nor apostles. Its achievements speak for themselves. Capitalism delivers the goods.
Ludwig von Mises


I welcome all Trolls, Meatheads, Socialists, Flat Earthers, and Tinfoil Hat wearers.

From a simplistic standpoint, capitalism is great.  Just like any system there are those that will learn to manipulate it and with a capitalistic system, it's those with money that can control it.  In a communist system it's the military regime that controls it.  So on and so on....Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

[Tapeworm]

Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

Only if the guy was an asshole to start with.

[Coach is Back!]

I would rather control my own destiny instead of a government controlling for me. This is what the left doesn't get...or maybe they and just don't have the drive or their just too fucking lazy.

[mr.turbo]

I would rather control my own destiny instead of a government controlling for me. This is what the left doesn't get...or maybe they and just don't have the drive or their just too fucking lazy.

here's the way it works, big business receives strong government support (welfare) and is therefore immune from free market discipline. They can also afford to spend money to "create" markets through aggressive ideological devices.

The other key is to impose the double standard in such a manner that those affected inflict such measures upon themselves. This is where Milton and friends come in to espouse free market dogma, to keep the *folks* confused and bewildered while they run along on their hamster wheels. The poor hardworking,  downtrodden, frustrated, angry masses are subsequently left wondering why the *american dream* has not come true. Well, the truth is they've been sold wolf tickets.  

*the masses*, left staring out into the abyss, wondering how they got to this point.  Nothing to do with the guys who control the society. NO! The big business guys are just swell. Heroes!

No, it's the fault of mexican peasants, or some other boogeyman, get those guys!  

[El Diablo Blanco]

I would rather control my own destiny instead of a government controlling for me. This is what the left doesn't get...or maybe they and just don't have the drive or their just too fucking lazy.

You're so anti-gov but without Gov you'd be living in the wild west with no running water, plumping, paved roads, electricity etc..  A short stout man like you would be dead within a week.

[FitnessFrenzy]

"Yes, rich people need to pay low taxes so they keep their motivation to work hard"

Lol, 96 % of the world works hard to be alive, survival it s the main motivation for almost all of humanity why not for the exploiters who are motivatede just by profit?

you are missing the point. If a multi-millionaire is taxed heavily in Sweden, he will move to e.g. Dubai or Switzerland and Sweden will be missing all the money this man paid in taxes.

[Coach is Back!]

You're so anti-gov but without Gov you'd be living in the wild west with no running water, plumping, paved roads, electricity etc..  A short stout man like you would be dead within a week.

Where did I say I was anti-government? It's when government waaaay over reaches to the point to where they control your life (like mr turbo, TA, etc. wants it) is where the line has to be drawn. First and foremost my family comes first. If people are too lazy that they have to depend on the government as a means of lifelong support (like Bernie Sanders and I'm not exaggerating) then why should I contribute to this lazy society of leaches?

Don't get me wrong, there are people that need help and thy should be helped but there should be limit and not life long contribution.

[El Diablo Blanco]

Where did I say I was anti-government? It's when government waaaay over reaches to the point to where they control your life (like mr turbo, TA, etc. wants it) is where the line has to be drawn. First and foremost my family comes first. If people are too lazy that they have to depend on the government as a means of lifelong support (like Bernie Sanders and I'm not exaggerating) then why should I contribute to this lazy society of leaches?

Don't get me wrong, there are people that need help and thy should be helped but there should be limit and not life long contribution.

That's what living in a society means.  Taking care of those that can't.

[mr.turbo]

palumboism needs to make some comments

let's discuss GM it's history and the wonders of the free market

This company is hailed as the prototypical modern corporation.

Well they were allowed to run the company into the ground for many many years. Their products sucked. When the consumer runs out of money to buy their garbage, in comes the government to save their ass. Now GM is doing great again but kids in flint get to eat lead.

Rinse repeat. The wonders of the free market.

[El Diablo Blanco]

palumboism needs to make some comments

let's discuss GM it's history and the wonders of the free market

This company is hailed as the prototypical modern corporation.

Well they were allowed to run the company into the ground for many many years. Their products sucked. When the consumer runs out of money to buy their garbage, in comes the government to save their ass. Now GM is doing great again but kids in flint get to eat lead.

Rinse repeat. The wonders of the free market.

The GM bailout was a gov way of robbing Peter to pay Paul.  Take our tax money to save how many thousands of jobs so they can lie about job growth but won't comment on the defecit and money they spent.
The same bailout for Wall Street contributed to Oil prices sky rocketing.  Companies like GS didn't need it.  Dumped the billions into OIL, drove up the price, doubled their money and paid it back to the gov.
The military employees over a million people.  Cutting military budgets will cut into the job growth number so Obama will never do that.  This "free" society has the stench of a socialist one all over it.

[mr.turbo]

The GM bailout was a gov way of robbing Peter to pay Paul.  Take our tax money to save how many thousands of jobs so they can lie about job growth but won't comment on the defecit and money they spent.
The same bailout for Wall Street contributed to Oil prices sky rocketing.  Companies like GS didn't need it.  Dumped the billions into OIL, drove up the price, doubled their money and paid it back to the gov.
The military employees over a million people.  Cutting military budgets will cut into the job growth number so Obama will never do that.  This "free" society has the stench of a socialist one all over it.

right?

it's highly stinky but it's like the nose adapts to familiar stench and you don't even notice it anymore.

hopefully those positive examples will start pouring into this thread.

looking forward to seeing them.

[mr.turbo]

Exactly, that's a pretty accurate summary. I've still only got my phone just now so I can't type in any detail, but the fact of the matter is, no matter how much one advocates free market theory and believes in the principles of it - we do not have it in application. I don't get why some people fail to realise this; acknowledging this fact does not make you a leftist or hardcore socialist lol. It's just the truth.

ironically the free market stuff is pretty much ALL IDEOLOGY.  Ask for some examples and you can expect some half hearted personal attacks. Then you get accused of being a socialist. Leftists demand evidence to support claims I guess.

[El Diablo Blanco]

right?

it's highly stinky but it's like the nose adapts to familiar stench and you don't even notice it anymore.

hopefully those positive examples will start pouring into this thread.

looking forward to seeing them.

I never understand who "the not super rich" and mostly poor continue to argue about how great the free market is.  Of course it's better than communism but for a free society we are surely taxed to death.  Just think how often something gets taxed.  Minerals sold to a metal company is taxed.  They create steel and sell it which is taxed.  A company takes the steel billets and presses it into sheets which is taxed when the car company buys it.  They assemble a car and sell it which is taxed again.  The final object is taxed 5 times before you get it. Such a fucking scam.

[mr.turbo]

I never understand who "the not super rich" and mostly poor continue to argue about how great the free market is.  Of course it's better than communism but for a free society we are surely taxed to death.  Just think how often something gets taxed.  Minerals sold to a metal company is taxed.  They create steel and sell it which is taxed.  A company takes the steel billets and presses it into sheets which is taxed when the car company buys it.  They assemble a car and sell it which is taxed again.  The final object is taxed 5 times before you get it. Such a fucking scam.

this is the part where the constitutional experts get to chime in. The taxation thing is a whole can of worms, I'll have to defer to those fine libertarian gentlemen.  haha

[Palumboism]

palumboism needs to make some comments

let's discuss GM it's history and the wonders of the free market

This company is hailed as the prototypical modern corporation.

Well they were allowed to run the company into the ground for many many years. Their products sucked. When the consumer runs out of money to buy their garbage, in comes the government to save their ass. Now GM is doing great again but kids in flint get to eat lead.

Rinse repeat. The wonders of the free market.

 

I resemble that remark.  The Cadillac Cimarron was a nice touch.

I actually think GM and Ford are the perfect examples of capitalism working and Alfred Sloan was a fantastic business man.  GM was offering customers what they wanted when you could only get a model T in black.  For years GM and Chevrolet dominated by offering more for less than the competition .  In 1965 the Impala alone sold one million units.  Then came the 80's and competition from the imports and the customer had more to choose from.  This is capitalism working beautifully!  


Not offices and bureaucrats, but big business deserves credit
for the fact that most of the families in the United States own a
motorcar and a radio set.
-Ludwig Von Mises

The bigness and the economic “power” of the railroad companies
did not impede the emergence of the motor car and the
airplane.
-Ludwig Von Mises

What makes a firm big is its success in best filling the
demands of the buyers. If the bigger enterprise did not better
serve the people than a smaller one, it would long since have
been reduced to smallness.
-Ludwig Von Mises

Big business depends entirely on the patronage of those
who buy its products: the biggest enterprises loses its power
and its influence when it loses its customers.
-Ludwig Von Mises

[mr.turbo]

Sure you're aware but Friedman held sway during the 80's.  He is credited as the guru of Reaganomics.

Here's the first Japanese export which was a huge failure. The TOYOPET 



Been learning details of how Japan kicked Ford out of the country in order to save their auto industry. Not exactly free market rules over there either.

Bad Samaritans
The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism
By Ha-Joon Chang

However, the fact is that, had the Japanese government followed the free-trade economists back in the early 1960s, there would have been no Lexus. Toyota today would, at best, be a junior partner to some western car manufacturer, or worse, have been wiped out. The same would have been true for the entire Japanese economy. Had the country donned Friedman's Golden Straitjacket early on, Japan would have remained the third-rate industrial power that it was in the 1960s, with its income level on a par with Chile, Argentina and South Africa - it was then a country whose prime minister was insultingly dismissed as 'a transistor-radio salesman' by the French president, Charles De Gaulle. In other words, had they followed Friedman's advice, the Japanese would now not be exporting the Lexus but still be fighting over who owns which mulberry tree.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/badsamaritans.htm

[El Diablo Blanco]

It's a free market until you infringe on it the. They sic their lawyers after you.

[Palumboism]

Sure you're aware but Friedman held sway during the 80's.  He is credited as the guru of Reaganomics.

Here's the first Japanese export which was a huge failure. The TOYOPET 



Been learning details of how Japan kicked Ford out of the country in order to save their auto industry. Not exactly free market rules over there either.

Bad Samaritans
The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism
By Ha-Joon Chang

However, the fact is that, had the Japanese government followed the free-trade economists back in the early 1960s, there would have been no Lexus. Toyota today would, at best, be a junior partner to some western car manufacturer, or worse, have been wiped out. The same would have been true for the entire Japanese economy. Had the country donned Friedman's Golden Straitjacket early on, Japan would have remained the third-rate industrial power that it was in the 1960s, with its income level on a par with Chile, Argentina and South Africa - it was then a country whose prime minister was insultingly dismissed as 'a transistor-radio salesman' by the French president, Charles De Gaulle. In other words, had they followed Friedman's advice, the Japanese would now not be exporting the Lexus but still be fighting over who owns which mulberry tree.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/badsamaritans.htm

What makes you think large v8 American cars would have sold so well in Japan?  If only Ford could have sold the Pinto in Japan, Toyota would have been run out of business. 
 

[mr.turbo]

What makes you think large v8 American cars would have sold so well in Japan?  If only Ford could have sold the Pinto in Japan, Toyota would have been run out of business.  
  

I'll agree that would have been ideal. 

In other news Ford has been kicked out of Japan again!

“The TPP’s lack of any meaningful currency protections means that it will be more of the same.” We need our government to fight for companies in the global marketplace in the same manner as some other countries do. This business decision by Ford is further evidence of the impact of unfair currency manipulation.”

"The ink isn’t even dry and we are already seeing proof that this massive agreement will sell out American workers and roll back the remarkable recovery of our auto industry," Brown said.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/266981-top-senate-dem-blames-fords-exit-from-japan-on-tpp

[Coach is Back!]

That's what living in a society means.  Taking care of those that can't.

But not forever. As I've said before, there was time when a person was on UE or government assistance they were embarrassed and ashamed and couldn't wait to get back to WORK and get back on their feet. Now people ware it as a badge of honor. It's disgusting.

[Griffith]

I never understand who "the not super rich" and mostly poor continue to argue about how great the free market is.  Of course it's better than communism but for a free society we are surely taxed to death.  Just think how often something gets taxed.  Minerals sold to a metal company is taxed.  They create steel and sell it which is taxed.  A company takes the steel billets and presses it into sheets which is taxed when the car company buys it.  They assemble a car and sell it which is taxed again.  The final object is taxed 5 times before you get it. Such a fucking scam.

And you people in America still have it relatively good too, taxes are not high compared to other countries.

In South Africa the highest bracket is 45% and you don't even have to earn a large amount, even in dollar terms to get taxed that.

Plus VAT of 14%, banks charges, property tax, high fuel tax, inheritance tax, transfer duty tax, 'capital gains' tax, donations tax and the list never ends.