This is why I say deadlifts are basically useless

[Al Doggity]

I came back to training at the end of last september.
looking back I was pretty busted up posture wise, neck pain etc etc etc
funny about this thread today because deadlifts, stiff legs, RDL's, hypers, pull thrus and power cleans among other things have been part of my workouts since I got back(obviously not at the same time), with both lighter(for me) and heavier weights(for me)
my point...I was outside today waiting for someone and realized hey my posture is 100 times better, I stand taller and my neck does not bother me anymore.

Sometimes you don't know the value of things until you lose them, then appreciate them when you get them back.

then you can realize and appreciate what you did to get back there.

In previous threads on the subject, I have stated that the greatest benefit of deadlifts that I have experienced is that they are great at managing back pain, which is the main reason I haven't completely removed them from my workouts. That particular benefit seems to be exclusive to deadlifts.

Once again, the title was an exaggeration. Any physical activity has benefits and managing back pain is a pretty major benefit. The points I've been making have been mainly in regards to strength and appearance as it relates to bodybuilding.

[Donny]

The equipment at the gym I go to looks like this. Using it has made me feel "light headed" on occasion. This is particularly true if I have not done them for awhile.

Being honest that is pretty out dated now doing them like that. The 45 Degree variation is better.

[mr.turbo]

I was responding to a study you posted  which you presented as "deadlift produces highest hormone response" which isn't really what that study said.

As for support for my "animus" towards the deadlift, I've posted pretty extensive personal experience and multiple video examples of why I think a good deadlift is overrated. There is a fundamental difference between the Ronnie Coleman video you posted and the videos I posted. Ronnie Coleman deadlifts heavy, but he also lifts heavy on other back exercises. All of the people I posted had average (or even below average) physiques yet still pulled impressive deadlift numbers. Some were even wearing high heels while doing it.  When I could find them, I posted other lifts by these people  and those lifts were far closer to average. Not to mention, Coleman is absolutely destroyed now. So, just in terms of general fitness, his years of heavy lifting didn't do much to help him out.

I suspect you are seeking a rationale for eliminating deadlifts from your routine.  No matter what evidence is presented you may persist in starting more anti-deadlift threads in an effort to drum up support your agenda. The benefits of the deadlift are well studied and understood; anecdotal and hypothetical scenarios notwithstanding. If you want to support this claim that deadlifts are way overrated, rows are better, show something from an expert who agrees with you or make a better reasoned argument.

for example. Frank Zane never did deadlifts. what's up with that?

[Al Doggity]

I suspect you are seeking a rationale for eliminating deadlifts from your routine.  No matter what evidence is presented you may persist in starting more anti-deadlift threads in an effort to drum up support your agenda. The benefits of the deadlift are well studied and understaood; anecdotal and hypothetical scenarios notwithstanding. If you want to support this claim that deadlifts are way overrated, rows are better, show something from an expert who agrees with you or make a better reasoned argument.

for example. Frank Zane never did deadlifts. what's up with that?

I don't need a rationale to remove anything from my workout. I don't do cardio regularly because I don't want to.  If I didn't want to bench, I wouldn't bench. I wouldn't feel obligated to come up with a rationale for why I didn't bench.   Also, as I've stated on this page and a few times earlier in this thread, I haven't completely removed dls from my workout. I'm looking less for a rationale to remove dls and more for a rationale to include them.

Do you disagree that many people who have strong deadlifts have physiques that aren't reflective of that? Do you find that to be as common with other large muscle mass lifts?

[Primemuscle]

Being honest that is pretty out dated now doing them like that. The 45 Degree variation is better.

I agree. When I get to the gym today, I'll ask them why they don't update their outdated equipment. Surely they will run right out and get the 45 degree style extension equipment....just for me! 

[mr.turbo]

I don't need a rationale to remove anything from my workout. I don't do cardio regularly because I don't want to.  If I didn't want to bench, I wouldn't bench. I wouldn't feel obligated to come up with a rationale for why I didn't bench.   Also, as I've stated on this page and a few times earlier in this thread, I haven't completely removed dls from my workout. I'm looking less for a rationale to remove dls and more for a rationale to include them.

Do you disagree that many people who have strong deadlifts have physiques that aren't reflective of that? Do you find that to be as common with other large muscle mass lifts?

I do disagree. A good deadlift will give you a nice thick neck which is great. It also promotes a powerful 3D look that is just hard to get. This is something Frank Zane didn't have.  

Some people have strong lifts for biomechanical reasons. Having short arms will make it hard to deadlift and easy to bench. Arnold had a pretty good deadlift and a not so good bench for these reasons. Dorian had long femurs and never squatted. This phenomenon is not at all unique to deadlifting. Your mind has just latched on to this and will accept almost anything to support the thesis!

Do you have short arms?  

[Donny]

I agree. When I get to the gym today, I'll ask them why they don't update their outdated equipment. Surely they will run right out and get the 45 degree style extension equipment....just for me! 

Ha.. but honestly i have also worked in a Gym where we had a bench where you were in a kneeling position and i see people doing this now on youtube on the floor. Whatever the  case 45 Degree is better for targeting lower back. Much safer than Deadlifts. If doing a well thought out workout you do not need Deadlifts.

[Al Doggity]

I do disagree. A good dealift will give you a nice thick neck which is great. It also promotes a powerful 3D look that is just hard to get. This is something Frank Zane didn't have.  

Some people have strong lifts for biomechanical reasons. Having short arms will make it hard to deadlift and easy to bench. Arnold had a pretty good deadlift and a not so good bench for these reasons. Dorian had long femurs and never squatted. This phenomenon is not at all unique to deadlifting. Your mind has just latched on to this and will accept almost anything to support the thesis!

Do you have short arms?  

You disagree despite me posting several examples of such people and it literally taking seconds to find dozens of other video examples on youtube? Yet I'm the one who isn't looking at things reasonably?  

There are many people who perform deadlifts that don't have a thick 3d look. There are many people who don't deadlift who do have a 3d look. Frank Zane didn't have any impressive bodyparts, so the fact that he didn't deadlift  and didn't have a 3d look doesn't really count for much.


What has my mind latched on to? You just listed some examples that had nothing to do with anything I said and then you claimed that my mind latched onto something, which I'm not even sure what you were referring to. Why you're trying to convince yourself that I am looking for permission from this board not to perform deadlifts, I don't get. It doesn't really make sense.  You're also trying to spin my position as deadlifts being something I find too difficult which also doesn't make sense. Since you've addressed things I've written in previous threads about the deadlift, you're aware that I didn't try to max out and got up to five plates. I'm not someone who has any issues performing a deadlift.

[Donny]

I do disagree. A good dealift will give you a nice thick neck which is great. It also promotes a powerful 3D look that is just hard to get. This is something Frank Zane didn't have.  

Some people have strong lifts for biomechanical reasons. Having short arms will make it hard to deadlift and easy to bench. Arnold had a pretty good deadlift and a not so good bench for these reasons. Dorian had long femurs and never squatted. This phenomenon is not at all unique to deadlifting. Your mind has just latched on to this and will accept almost anything to support the thesis!

Do you have short arms?  

Zane had a Herculean Body and was Mr O. I wonder why?

[mr.turbo]

You disagree despite me posting several examples of such people and it literally taking seconds to find dozens of other video examples on youtube? Yet I'm the one who isn't looking at things reasonably?  

There are many people who perform deadlifts that don't have a thick 3d look. There are many people who don't deadlift who do have a 3d look. Frank Zane didn't have any impressive bodyparts, so the fact that he didn't deadlift  and didn't have a 3d look doesn't really count for much.


What has my mind latched on to? You just listed some examples that had nothing to do with anything I said and then you claimed that my mind latched onto something, which I'm not even sure what you were referring to. Why you're trying to convince yourself that I am looking for permission from this board not to perform deadlifts, I don't get. It doesn't really make sense.  You're also trying to spin my position as deadlifts being something I find too difficult which also doesn't make sense. Since you've addressed things I've written in previous threads about the deadlift, you're aware that I didn't try to max out and got up to five plates. I'm not someone who has any issues performing a deadlift.

a dwarf will press 300+lbs  no problem

hey does this mean bench press is overrated? no it doesn't but here's an example for you anyway.

I'm not trying to spin anything.  Since you haven't made a strong case I'm just trying to figure out why you keep making this claim. You've latched onto this concept of a deadlift being inferior. I assume it's personal. I don't know why deadlifting has given you so much unhappiness but sadly it's got nothing to do with the efficacy of the movement.

[Al Doggity]

a dwarf will press 300+lbs  no problem

hey does this mean bench press is overrated? no it doesn't but here's an example for you anyway.

I'm not trying to spin anything.  Since you haven't made a strong case I'm just trying to figure out why you keep making this claim. You've latched onto this concept of a deadlift being inferior. I assume it's personal. I don't know why deadlifting has given you so much unhappiness but sadly it's got nothing to do with the efficacy of the movement.

You made up an imaginary position for me that had nothing to do with what I said and then started arguin with it. If that's not spin...


Also, another bizarre counterpoint from you. Of course, shorter limbs have an easier time leveraging more weight on a bench press. How is this related to the videos I posted earlier? The videos featured men of normal height, skinny women in heels and old ladies. What biomechanical advantage did these people have that explained their big deadlifts?  


My argument was never as shallow as a skinny person or a dwarf can do a deadlift, so it must not be a good exercise.My argument consisted of the following points:

1)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A GOOD BODYBUILDING EXERCISE
Most people who posted in this thread admitted to this, though many felt that it was still the king of "functional exercises".

2)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A PARTICULARLY GOOD GAUGE OF STRENGTH
Improving your deadlift doesn't have much effect on other back or leg lifts. This kind of strength transference to different exercises for the same bodypart is true of almost no other power movement.

3)ONE CAN PERFORM DEADLIFTS REGULARLY WITHOUT THE RESULTS SHOWING UP IN ONE'S PHYSIQUE
Posted multiple video examples of this.

All of these things are true and in one way or another, most people have acknowledged these points at some point in the thread. Most of the resistance to the concept as a whole is conditioning, to a certain extent. I get that. That's why I started the thread, to challenge that notion. Like most deadlift proponents, your argument just came down to buzzwords (or lying) . It was the same vague  "grip strength, posterior chain, other applications argument" with "3d look" thrown in.


etaIf someone asks me what the benefits of a bicep curl or squats or bench press are, I can give them a very clear answer. I will tell them the advantages and limitations and what they won't do. This is not how deadlift proponents answer questions about deadlifts. This is not how anyone explained what the benefits of the deadlift are in in this thread. If you get someone to admit that the deadlift is not a good bodybuilding exercise ( which happens frequently) then they resort to the  "posterior chain, grip strength, etc" thing. This would be like if someone asked me about the benefits of bicep curls and I said "they  give you arm flexibility, the strength the uptake on chinups and they also increase your ability to supinate your wrist in daily life. "

[Donny]

a dwarf will press 300+lbs  no problem

hey does this mean bench press is overrated? no it doesn't but here's an example for you anyway.

I'm not trying to spin anything.  Since you haven't made a strong case I'm just trying to figure out why you keep making this claim. You've latched onto this concept of a deadlift being inferior. I assume it's personal. I don't know why deadlifting has given you so much unhappiness but sadly it's got nothing to do with the efficacy of the movement.

Bench press is over rated as a chest movement. Dips and Flys are superior.

[chaos]

Bench press is over rated as a chest movement. Dips and Flys are superior.

[NelsonMuntz]

You disagree despite me posting several examples of such people and it literally taking seconds to find dozens of other video examples on youtube? Yet I'm the one who isn't looking at things reasonably?  

There are many people who perform deadlifts that don't have a thick 3d look. There are many people who don't deadlift who do have a 3d look. Frank Zane didn't have any impressive bodyparts, so the fact that he didn't deadlift  and didn't have a 3d look doesn't really count for much.


What has my mind latched on to? You just listed some examples that had nothing to do with anything I said and then you claimed that my mind latched onto something, which I'm not even sure what you were referring to. Why you're trying to convince yourself that I am looking for permission from this board not to perform deadlifts, I don't get. It doesn't really make sense.  You're also trying to spin my position as deadlifts being something I find too difficult which also doesn't make sense. Since you've addressed things I've written in previous threads about the deadlift, you're aware that I didn't try to max out and got up to five plates. I'm not someone who has any issues performing a deadlift.

Zane actually did alot of rack pulls

[Donny]

explain why not training "mod" 

[Grape Ape]

You made up an imaginary position for me that had nothing to do with what I said and then started arguin with it. If that's not spin...

My argument consisted of the following points:

1)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A GOOD BODYBUILDING EXERCISE
Most people who posted in this thread admitted to this, though many felt that it was still the king of "functional exercises".

2)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A PARTICULARLY GOOD GAUGE OF STRENGTH
Improving your deadlift doesn't have much effect on other back or leg lifts. This kind of strength transference to different exercises for the same bodypart is true of almost no other power movement.

3)ONE CAN PERFORM DEADLIFTS REGULARLY WITHOUT THE RESULTS SHOWING UP IN ONE'S PHYSIQUE
Posted multiple video examples of this.

Your original post contained nothing about cosmetic effects, which is now 2/3 of your point above.   You said they were not a good gauge of strength, then struggled to make a case for it.  Maybe you did on the volumes of text in the middle pages, but judging by the current comments, it appears you have not.

[Al Doggity]

Your original post contained nothing about cosmetic effects, which is now 2/3 of your point above.   You said they were not a good gauge of strength, then struggled to make a case for it.  Maybe you did on the volumes of text in the middle pages, but judging by the current comments, it appears you have not.

My original post (along with the title of the thread) was referencing previous deadlift discussions that have taken place on this board. Even if you weren't aware of them while reading the opening post, I posted quotes from some of those threads-the first one only 5 slots down on the first page- and they mention appearance. The eighth post on the first page is from me and mentions appearance again. All of this was before your first post in this thread and the posts are of reasonable lengths. I mention appearance on almost every page of this thread. On page 3, I posted 5 videos in response to someone who said my claim that good deadlift =/= impressive physique wasinaccurate.

[mr.turbo]

You made up an imaginary position for me that had nothing to do with what I said and then started arguin with it. If that's not spin...


Also, another bizarre counterpoint from you. Of course, shorter limbs have an easier time leveraging more weight on a bench press. How is this related to the videos I posted earlier? The videos featured men of normal height, skinny women in heels and old ladies. What biomechanical advantage did these people have that explained their big deadlifts?  


My argument was never as shallow as a skinny person or a dwarf can do a deadlift, so it must not be a good exercise.My argument consisted of the following points:

1)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A GOOD BODYBUILDING EXERCISE
Most people who posted in this thread admitted to this, though many felt that it was still the king of "functional exercises".

2)DEADLIFTS ARE NOT A PARTICULARLY GOOD GAUGE OF STRENGTH
Improving your deadlift doesn't have much effect on other back or leg lifts. This kind of strength transference to different exercises for the same bodypart is true of almost no other power movement.

3)ONE CAN PERFORM DEADLIFTS REGULARLY WITHOUT THE RESULTS SHOWING UP IN ONE'S PHYSIQUE
Posted multiple video examples of this.

All of these things are true and in one way or another, most people have acknowledged these points at some point in the thread. Most of the resistance to the concept as a whole is conditioning, to a certain extent. I get that. That's why I started the thread, to challenge that notion. Like most deadlift proponents, your argument just came down to buzzwords (or lying) . It was the same vague  "grip strength, posterior chain, other applications argument" with "3d look" thrown in.


etaIf someone asks me what the benefits of a bicep curl or squats or bench press are, I can give them a very clear answer. I will tell them the advantages and limitations and what they won't do. This is not how deadlift proponents answer questions about deadlifts. This is not how anyone explained what the benefits of the deadlift are in in this thread. If you get someone to admit that the deadlift is not a good bodybuilding exercise ( which happens frequently) then they resort to the  "posterior chain, grip strength, etc" thing. This would be like if someone asked me about the benefits of bicep curls and I said "they  give you arm flexibility, the strength the uptake on chinups and they also increase your ability to supinate your wrist in daily life. "

I guess what's missing is some proof that not doing deadlifts is so great.  All I see are examples of people doing deadlifts and being quite happy about themselves for many good reasons. I don't feel this is the right material to prove deadlifts are inferior. We need to see the examples of non-deadlifters. The burden of proof has fallen on you since you're taking this position.  

Johnnie Jackson has a nice 3D look  , huge lower back, traps etc. he doesn't deadlift much anymore but would he claim deadlifting is useless? I doubt it. Not everyone wants to look like vince gironda.

The reasons people deadlift have progressed into a truism for probably good reason. It's a core strength, compound, mass building exercise.  

[BIG_STI]

Two bodybuilders with the biggest backs ever Yates/Coleman both did deadlifts on a regular basis.

Both these idiots were clearly wasting there time.   

[mr.turbo]

oh and that granny in the original post I checked it out and she most definitely has the 3D look going on
 

[SF1900]

Two bodybuilders with the biggest backs ever Yates/Coleman both did deadlifts on a regular basis.

Both these idiots were clearly wasting there time.   

The problem with this assertion is that they also did A LOT of other back exercises, so its impossible to tell what exercise really contributed to their overall back development. Was it solely deadlifts? Or was it a combination of back exercises? Dorian also did a SHIT ton of barbell rows and pullovers. So, why not assume that barbell rows contributed to his overall back development? Why are you assuming it was deadlifts? How do you know this? Or, would they still have had great backs without deadlifting, given their superior genetics.

The only way to prove this is to run randomized controlled clinical trials where you have an experimental and control group. One group does ONLY deadlifts, and another groups does a variety of exercises (or maybe just one back exercise). You try to hold all other variables constant, then see which group had a greater improvement in strength and size.

Until then, its a baseless assumption to assume that Ronnie and Dorian had great backs because they deadlifted. Both also did barbell rows. So, maybe it was barbell rows that contributed to their back development more.

[Grape Ape]

The only way to prove this is to run randomized controlled clinical trials where you have an experimental and control group. One group does ONLY deadlifts, and another groups does a variety of exercises (or maybe just one back exercise). You try to hold all other variables constant, then see which group had a greater improvement in strength and size.

Hulkotron has been overseeing this exact trial for the past two years.

Once he gives me the data, I will let you know the results.

[Al Doggity]

I guess what's missing is some proof that not doing deadlifts is so great.  All I see are examples of people doing deadlifts and being quite happy about themselves for many good reasons. I don't feel this is the right material to prove deadlifts are inferior. We need to see the examples of non-deadlifters. The burden of proof has fallen on you since you're taking this position.  

Johnnie Jackson has a nice 3D look  , huge lower back, traps etc. he doesn't deadlift much anymore but would he claim deadlifting is useless? I doubt it. Not everyone wants to look like vince gironda.

The reasons people deadlift have progressed into a truism for probably good reason. It's a core strength, compound, mass building exercise.  

Again, I find this an odd counterpoint. Firstly, the idea of "burden of proof" in a thread about deadlifting on
the gossip and opinion board of an internet forum is   . More to the point, what you're saying counts as proof is even more subjective than what I've already posted. Like someone posted earlier, your mind has latched on to this and you will accept anything to support your thesis.

A more reasonable challenge is the opposite: Deadlifts have a reputation as king of strength and muscle building movements. That's what you're claiming. Several people in this thread have stated that is the one movement you need or if they could only do one exercise, that would be it. You, yourself, have posted a variation of that. So, if the deadlift is the only movement you need, who are the people who have built great bodies using only or not much more than deadlifts?

[SF1900]

Hulkotron has been overseeing this exact trial for the past two years.

Once he gives me the data, I will let you know the results.

You do not have to worry about giving me the results. I am co-investigator on the research project. Hulkotron had difficulties understanding effect sizes, so I had to assist him with this.

[polychronopolous]

The equipment at the gym I go to looks like this. Using it has made me feel "light headed" on occasion. This is particularly true if I have not done them for awhile.

It's called a Roman Chair.