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Author Topic: CALVINISM aka JOHN CALVIN  (Read 4113 times)
IrishMuscle84
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« on: May 12, 2016, 10:28:52 PM »

I am NOT a calvinist BUT i will agree with his saying..........

" Since no man is excluded from Calling Upon God, The gate of salvation is open to ALL. The only thing that hinders us is our own Unbelief ".

I also like a few from Charles Spurgeon.

Since being PREDESTINED/ELECTION is a big area for Calvinists, What is Your Opinion or DEFINITION of being PREDESTINED/ELECTED ??
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2016, 07:16:00 AM »

I've been slowly evaluating Calvinism and Arminianism for some time and I haven't reached a conclusion yet.
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IrishMuscle84
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2016, 09:37:35 AM »

I've been slowly evaluating Calvinism and Arminianism for some time and I haven't reached a conclusion yet.
Even though i like that quote by CALVIN, At the same time, when it comes to Calvinism which they say IS the Gospel, It contradicts itself.
Its says salvation is open to " ALL " BUT " ALL " arent saved AND calvinists are AGAINEST FREE-WILL but there are those two words, " YOUR OWN "....Unbelief. Too me, " your own " Means that YOU CHOOSE on your own FREE WILL, TOO believe.
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2016, 07:49:02 AM »

I've been slowly evaluating Calvinism and Arminianism for some time and I haven't reached a conclusion yet.

 Ditto. The verses about the Potter and His clay in Romans 9 complicates things in this case.
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tbombz
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 10:08:27 PM »

God absolutely knows who will and who wont be saved.

In God's omniscient, eternal foreknowledge, the eternal fate of all people has already been sealed.

Now, God knew who would be saved and who would be condemned before He made the world. Yet, He chose to make the world anyway. Therefore, at least in some limited sense, God did in fact "predestine" some men to salvation and some men to eternal hell.

By choosing to create this world, God predestined certain people to heaven and certain people to hell.

He could have chosen to create a different world in which different people were saved, but He chose to create this world in which these certain people are saved.

So God, before the creation of the world, considered an infinite number of possible worlds, and considering each world, He chose the world which would bring Him most glory. He chose this world. By choosing this world He predestined certain individuals to hell and certain others to salvation.

Our fates have been sealed since eternity past. The only thing that remains is for us to work them out according to the will and pleasure of God.
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IrishMuscle84
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 08:46:18 AM »

God absolutely knows who will and who wont be saved.

In God's omniscient, eternal foreknowledge, the eternal fate of all people has already been sealed.

Now, God knew who would be saved and who would be condemned before He made the world. Yet, He chose to make the world anyway. Therefore, at least in some limited sense, God did in fact "predestine" some men to salvation and some men to eternal hell.

By choosing to create this world, God predestined certain people to heaven and certain people to hell.

He could have chosen to create a different world in which different people were saved, but He chose to create this world in which these certain people are saved.

So God, before the creation of the world, considered an infinite number of possible worlds, and considering each world, He chose the world which would bring Him most glory. He chose this world. By choosing this world He predestined certain individuals to hell and certain others to salvation.

Our fates have been sealed since eternity past. The only thing that remains is for us to work them out according to the will and pleasure of God.

You sound like you're a Calvinist. So God has already decided ? For nonbelievers, why even bother becoming born again Huh JOHN CALVIN would tell them.........
" Dont waste your time, God has already decided ".
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tbombz
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 04:05:56 PM »

You sound like you're a Calvinist. So God has already decided ? For nonbelievers, why even bother becoming born again Huh JOHN CALVIN would tell them.........
" Dont waste your time, God has already decided ".

I am not a Calvinist. I do believe that God knows who will be and who wont be saved, however.

Before God created the world He knew who would be and who wont be saved.

Yet, He created the world anyways.

By creating this world, in which He knows that certain people will be saved and certain people wont be, He chose to "predestine" certain people to Heaven and certain people to Hell.



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IrishMuscle84
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 05:26:16 PM »

I am not a Calvinist. I do believe that God knows who will be and who wont be saved, however.

Before God created the world He knew who would be and who wont be saved.

Yet, He created the world anyways.

By creating this world, in which He knows that certain people will be saved and certain people wont be, He chose to "predestine" certain people to Heaven and certain people to Hell.




And how do we know that being PREDESTINED/ELECTED is refering to Be saved Huh If so, if i were a Non-believer and KNEW i was going to Hell i would Live the whole SEX DRUGS and ROCK N ROLL life everyday and SIN like there was no tomorrow.
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tbombz
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 12:41:34 AM »

And how do we know that being PREDESTINED/ELECTED is refering to Be saved Huh If so, if i were a Non-believer and KNEW i was going to Hell i would Live the whole SEX DRUGS and ROCK N ROLL life everyday and SIN like there was no tomorrow.

How do we know that the elect are saved? Because God says that they are...

"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:30

No Arminian even denies this fact. Those predestined to salvation will in fact be saved.

Before time even existed God had already written down and sealed the names of everyone who will be saved...

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain ... And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 13:8, 20:15

The book of life was written, it seems, "from the foundation of the world." Those whose names are inside will be saved. They are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified. Those whose names are not in the book will be thrown into the lake of fire.


"It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Romans 9:16-18


________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ___-
p.s. I am not a Calvinist. There are many Calvinist doctrines I do not agree with. For example, I disagree with the idea of limited atonement, and irresistible grace. But predestination is just simply biblical.


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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 03:02:25 PM »

Catholics believe the 'elect' are predestined (Ephesians 1:3-5), although no one is predestined for hell.. God desires all to be saved, although not all accept him,
God does not will evil to happen, he just allows it, Calvinists make the mistake of saying everything that happens is Gods will, which in turn also hampers free will.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
"An unconditional and positive predestination of the reprobate not only to hell, but also to sin, was taught especially by Calvin. Infralapsarianism was also held by Jansenius, who taught that God had preordained from the massa damnata of mankind one part to eternal bliss, the other to eternal pain, decreeing at the same time to deny to those positively damned the necessary graces by which they might be converted.

Against such blasphemous teachings the Second Synod of Orange in 529 and again the Council of Trent had pronounced a condemnation of error. These condemnations are perfectly justified, because the heresy of Predestinarianism, in direct opposition to the clearest texts of Scripture, denied the universality of God's salvific will as well as of redemption through Christ (cf. Wisdom 11:24 sq.; 1 Timothy 2:1 sq.), nullified God's mercy towards the hardened sinner (Ezekiel 33:11; Romans 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), did away with the freedom of the will to do good or evil, and hence with the merit of good actions and the guilt of the bad, and finally destroyed the Divine attributes of wisdom, justice, veracity, goodness, and sanctity.

According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events, all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact. Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil. Just as it is God's true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all, not only for the predestined, or for the faithful, though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption.

Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect, yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin. Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will, so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness.

God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins, though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners, or pass over those who are not predestined. As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church"
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2016, 05:38:19 PM »

"It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Romans 9:16-18

I take from your previous comments that you are interpreting Pauls verse here to mean that people don't have free will and that some are created to be damned?
How could this be if Paul also says in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

I believe your quotation refers more to how God responds in regards to our obedience to him, as we can see a similar story in the old testament.
Jeremiah 18:5-10
"Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
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IrishMuscle84
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2016, 08:24:23 PM »

How do we know that the elect are saved? Because God says that they are...

"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:30

No Arminian even denies this fact. Those predestined to salvation will in fact be saved.

Before time even existed God had already written down and sealed the names of everyone who will be saved...

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain ... And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 13:8, 20:15

The book of life was written, it seems, "from the foundation of the world." Those whose names are inside will be saved. They are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified. Those whose names are not in the book will be thrown into the lake of fire.


"It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Romans 9:16-18


________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ___-
p.s. I am not a Calvinist. There are many Calvinist doctrines I do not agree with. For example, I disagree with the idea of limited atonement, and irresistible grace. But predestination is just simply biblical.



That still doesn't specifically say that its talking about being saved. What if being Predestined/Elected is referring to Being Born OR being Chosen to Share the Gospel with others ??  Smiley Smiley
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tbombz
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 12:43:19 AM »

I take from your previous comments that you are interpreting Pauls verse here to mean that people don't have free will and that some are created to be damned?
How could this be if Paul also says in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."


Hey Sizwe!

1) I do believe that the Bible teaches human freedom. However, our freedom is limited. The sinful nature of man prevents him from embracing the Savior. It takes a supernatural work of grace in the heart of a man in order to bring him to salvation. Only those whom God has elected to salvation will actually be saved.

2) Yes, I do think that God has created certain beings knowing that they will be condemned. He created Satan knowing that Satan would be Satan. He created Judas knowing that Judas would be Judas. He created these creatures for a specific reason... it sure wasn't to save them.

3) God's activity in causing evil to occur is mysterious. One thing is for sure, He does intentionally create certain circumstances in which He knows evil will occur. He does not work to prevent evil from happening. What He does do is He uses evil in order to bring about good. He used Jesus death on the cross to bring about our salvation. He was pleased to crush His only Son. He laid upon Jesus our sins. He caused Jesus to suffer. And He used that evil for our good.

4) God does want everyone to be saved. He would love to see Satan be saved. But Satan wont turn and be saved. God would love for all humans everywhere to turn to Jesus for salvation. But they wont turn to Jesus. Therefore, God has graciously chosen a precious few to be elected unto salvation.

5) God gives sinful men over to depravity. When a sinner willfully chooses wickedness, God gives them what they choose. God pulls the sustaining grace out of their minds and causes them to become even more corrupt. God works in these people to bring about terrible situations. God causes sinners to become even more sinful, therefore bringing about even more blessing for His children who endure the wickedness of others.
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _


Then I heard the Lord asking, “Whom should I send as a messenger to this people? Who will go for us?”

I said, “Here I am. Send me.”

And he said, “Yes, go, and say to this people,

‘Listen carefully, but do not understand.
    Watch closely, but learn nothing.’
Harden the hearts of these people.
    Plug their ears and shut their eyes.
That way, they will not see with their eyes,
    nor hear with their ears,
nor understand with their hearts
    and turn to me for healing.” Isaiah 6:8-10


^^^^^ You see here, God is telling Isaiah to intentionally cause the people of Israel to become wicked. God tells Isaiah, "Make these people deaf to my words so that they will not turn and listen to me."
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ______________________


"Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them." Romans 1:24


^^^^^ You see, God intentionally gives some people over to wickedness.
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ______________________

When asked why He only taught in parables, Jesus responded...

"'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'" Mark 4:12

^^^^ Jesus intentionally made it so that certain people would not be able to understand His message. He did not want them to understand because "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven."
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ __

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7




***footnote: I am not a Calvinist. I just agree with the biblical teaching of predestination and God's sovereignty.

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tbombz
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 12:48:13 AM »

That still doesn't specifically say that its talking about being saved. What if being Predestined/Elected is referring to Being Born OR being Chosen to Share the Gospel with others ??  Smiley Smiley

"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."
2 Thessalonians 2:13
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Sizwe
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 03:31:27 PM »

Thanks for your explanation tbombz, and I really like your last part of point 5 Smiley

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IrishMuscle84
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 08:32:03 PM »

Hey Sizwe!

1) I do believe that the Bible teaches human freedom. However, our freedom is limited. The sinful nature of man prevents him from embracing the Savior. It takes a supernatural work of grace in the heart of a man in order to bring him to salvation. Only those whom God has elected to salvation will actually be saved.

2) Yes, I do think that God has created certain beings knowing that they will be condemned. He created Satan knowing that Satan would be Satan. He created Judas knowing that Judas would be Judas. He created these creatures for a specific reason... it sure wasn't to save them.

3) God's activity in causing evil to occur is mysterious. One thing is for sure, He does intentionally create certain circumstances in which He knows evil will occur. He does not work to prevent evil from happening. What He does do is He uses evil in order to bring about good. He used Jesus death on the cross to bring about our salvation. He was pleased to crush His only Son. He laid upon Jesus our sins. He caused Jesus to suffer. And He used that evil for our good.

4) God does want everyone to be saved. He would love to see Satan be saved. But Satan wont turn and be saved. God would love for all humans everywhere to turn to Jesus for salvation. But they wont turn to Jesus. Therefore, God has graciously chosen a precious few to be elected unto salvation.

5) God gives sinful men over to depravity. When a sinner willfully chooses wickedness, God gives them what they choose. God pulls the sustaining grace out of their minds and causes them to become even more corrupt. God works in these people to bring about terrible situations. God causes sinners to become even more sinful, therefore bringing about even more blessing for His children who endure the wickedness of others.
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _


Then I heard the Lord asking, “Whom should I send as a messenger to this people? Who will go for us?”

I said, “Here I am. Send me.”

And he said, “Yes, go, and say to this people,

‘Listen carefully, but do not understand.
    Watch closely, but learn nothing.’
Harden the hearts of these people.
    Plug their ears and shut their eyes.
That way, they will not see with their eyes,
    nor hear with their ears,
nor understand with their hearts
    and turn to me for healing.” Isaiah 6:8-10


^^^^^ You see here, God is telling Isaiah to intentionally cause the people of Israel to become wicked. God tells Isaiah, "Make these people deaf to my words so that they will not turn and listen to me."
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ______________________


"Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them." Romans 1:24


^^^^^ You see, God intentionally gives some people over to wickedness.
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ______________________

When asked why He only taught in parables, Jesus responded...

"'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'" Mark 4:12

^^^^ Jesus intentionally made it so that certain people would not be able to understand His message. He did not want them to understand because "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven."
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ __

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7




***footnote: I am not a Calvinist. I just agree with the biblical teaching of predestination and God's sovereignty.


So can the verse " Many are called but few are Chosen " Be cross referenced to this ?? If So, the ones who are Called BUT Not Chosen, God will say to them, " Oh umm yea, I just used you to share my word on earth BUT I'm going to put you in hell ".
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tbombz
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2016, 01:01:46 AM »

So can the verse " Many are called but few are Chosen " Be cross referenced to this ?? If So, the ones who are Called BUT Not Chosen, God will say to them, " Oh umm yea, I just used you to share my word on earth BUT I'm going to put you in hell ".

 Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were called and used by God. I doubt whether they made it to Heaven, though.

Paul said that he rejoiced even over those who preached the gospel out of selfish ambition. As long as the cross of Christ was preached, God could use the message to bring people to salvation.... even if the preacher had his heart in the wrong place. Even if the preacher himself was going to hell.

Jesus taught that there will be preachers in Hell, crying out, saying "Lord, Lord, did we not work miracles in your name and cast out demons in your name???"  To them Jesus will reply "Away from me, evil doers. I never knew you!"


So I think there are different levels of calling.

But I am not advocating for strict Calvinism.

I am just emphasizing that "every good gift is from above."

Salvation is of God.

A man cannot come to be saved except for God graciously choosing him and electing him for it.

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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 06:57:37 PM »

I've been slowly evaluating Calvinism and Arminianism for some time and I haven't reached a conclusion yet.






















In my humblest opinion, you are right, I don't think predestination and Arminianism are mutually exclusive. At least not with God. We, however, cannot reconcile the two in our limited human minds.

Actually I think that the whole argument about Calvinism vs. Arminianism is just an opportunity for the modern-day Pharisees to show off their pseudo-intellectualism. They develop debate winning arguments for their point of view and meanwhile they fail on the simple matters like keeping the only two commandments that Jesus has left us.
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2017, 05:33:52 AM »



I agree with this and I also agree with tbombz comments as well.  There's a growing level of arrogance amongst Calvinists and "out scripturing" someone in a debate seems to be the norm.

What I find troubling are the rigid, subjective opinions of some Calvinists that insist that all choose to engage in sin and this includes newborn babies that cry out to their parents when hungry.  Calvinists put forth that the very act of crying out is a willful, selfish sinful act and therefore qualifies that newborn baby to eternal separation from God in a teeth gnashing hell.

That's one example that troubles me.
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