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Author Topic: PWO Nutrition after weights/cardio....  (Read 5057 times)
JCL
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« on: March 26, 2006, 01:55:14 PM »

Opinions welcome....

From experience, what has giving you the best results?

Taking in a whey/dextrose shake after weights AND cardio, or taking in half after training then the second half immediately after cardio...

Thanks in advance!
JCL
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2006, 07:59:57 AM »

What has worked for me is taking a shake after cardio, which I do at around noon, and then a shake pre workout at 415 and after my workout at 615.    Before it has just been after my workout and I have noticed a difference since.  Carbs after your workout and cardio is also important. 
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an123
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2006, 08:30:25 AM »

Used to dump a load of dextrose in my aft workout shake.  Stopped a while back and seen no changes what-so-ever.  Also used to put glutamine/creatine etc.. Again stopped, no difference.  I'd even guess I could stop the shake all together, go home and have a regular meal and i'd probably still see no difference.
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philnq8
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2006, 03:31:38 PM »

www.nutrienttiming.com

check it out
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The Luke
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2006, 04:20:33 PM »

Ingesting large quantities (50+ grams) of dextrose (aka glucose), on a regular basis, is actually quite dangerous in the long run. Adult onset diabetes anyone?? Only food manufacturers (especially those in the sports supplement industry) aiming for the absolute maximum possible profit margins espouse the "benefits?" of glucose.

Honestly guys, eat a banana... dextrose/glucose is crap, totally empty calories.


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Blake
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2006, 06:55:13 PM »

Honestly guys, eat a banana... dextrose/glucose is crap, totally empty calories.

The Luke

Can you tell me how the body differentiates, in the end, between molecules of glucose coming from a banana versus those from dextrose?

Also, can you post any peer reviewed studies showing the onset of diabetes 'specifically' from long-term dextrose intake in otherwise healthy, exercising adults?
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2006, 07:26:28 PM »

Can you tell me how the body differentiates, in the end, between molecules of glucose coming from a banana versus those from dextrose?

Also, can you post any peer reviewed studies showing the onset of diabetes 'specifically' from long-term dextrose intake in otherwise healthy, exercising adults?

I don't think there is any "glucose" in a banana. Bananas have fructose I would guess. Also since it is a natural and unrefined food it takes
a little longer for the body to break down - ie. no big insulin spike which is where the problem would lie.
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Blake
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2006, 07:52:25 PM »

I don't think there is any "glucose" in a banana. Bananas have fructose I would guess. Also since it is a natural and unrefined food it takes
a little longer for the body to break down - ie. no big insulin spike which is where the problem would lie.


I'm talking about the fate of all ingested carbohydrates.

And if The Luke or anyone else can come up with peer reviewed studies that show healthy, exercising adults developing diabetes from ingesting dextrose as part of their post-workout nutrition, I'd like to see references.
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The Luke
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2006, 08:41:54 PM »

I know this has become the common catchcry of all would be intellectuals here on GetBig.... "Show me the peer reviewed studies!" ...sadly it's only called upon in defence of arguments so unfounded that they belie a serious lack of understanding on behalf of those making the demands.

Blake wants peer reviewed studies (presumably published in a medical journal) that show a link between adult onset diabetes and the ingestion of glucose in post workout meals among healthy exercising adults.

Well, there are none.
Just like there are no studies specifically addressing a causal link between the effects of gravity on heavy musical instruments and the injuries incurred by healthy exercising people intersecting the line of gravitys effect on the aforementioned musical instrument. Still... I wouldn't want to step under a falling piano.

Studies like the one Blake wants to see haven't, and won't be done... because most scientists in the field would consider them to be redundandant.
The link between large amounts of glucose and diabetes is firmly established.
The mechanism involved is firmly established.
The link between high GI, processed foods and diabetes is firmly established.
Highly processed, simple saccharides (sugars) such as maltose, fructose, sucrose and glucose/dextrose, if eaten in large quantities WILL impair insulin/glucose sensitivity EVEN in healthy exercising adults... and will eventually lead to the myriad illnesses and maladies related to impaired insulin/glucose sensitivity, most notably obesity and diabetes.

I do however understand Blake's line of thinking. The difference between banana's and glucose powder is more complicated than the end result of glucose molecules in the bloodstream. In a banana the glucose molecules are bound up in starches (amylopectin and amylose) the quantities of which vary (a very ripe banana is mostly amylopectin, giving the fruit a GI of 80ish, whereas a green banana is mostly amylose giving the fruit a GI of 40ish). The glucose you get from your GI 70 banana is digested complete with all the water, phytochemicals, vitamins, minerals, salts and nutrients your body would expect to be part of the digestive process, the same cannot be said of glucose powder. Processed sugars are nutritionally insipid, they leech vitamins and minerals from the tissues, upset the osmotic balance of the digestive tract due to their dehydrating properties and are just downright counter to health.

Guys, seriously read up on this stuff. Healthy natural eating is the way to go. The only supplements a (natural) bodybuilder should use are those that augment an already healthful high protein, high lipid, nutritious wholefood diet.
I'd recommmend:
-a high dose multivitamin, multimineral
-vitamin C (3+ grams per day)
-vitamin E (800 iu per day)
-Udo's Choice Ultimate Oil Blend
-a good quality whey protein concentrate
(or a whey protein isolate for those without financial restrictions)
-a bedtime zinc/magnesium mix
-creatine
-NAC (N-acetyl-cysteine) 500 mg ...it's the mother of all antioxidants

Again, guys please do some of your own research... any inkling of nutrtional savy would tell you that mixing 50 or 100 grams of sugar into your post workout shake is madness.

The Luke
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Blake
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2006, 09:40:09 PM »

I know this has become the common catchcry of all would be intellectuals here on GetBig.... "Show me the peer reviewed studies!" ...sadly it's only called upon in defence of arguments so unfounded that they belie a serious lack of understanding on behalf of those making the demands.

Blake wants peer reviewed studies (presumably published in a medical journal) that show a link between adult onset diabetes and the ingestion of glucose in post workout meals among healthy exercising adults.

Well, there are none.
Just like there are no studies specifically addressing a causal link between the effects of gravity on heavy musical instruments and the injuries incurred by healthy exercising people intersecting the line of gravitys effect on the aforementioned musical instrument. Still... I wouldn't want to step under a falling piano.

Studies like the one Blake wants to see haven't, and won't be done... because most scientists in the field would consider them to be redundandant.
The link between large amounts of glucose and diabetes is firmly established.
The mechanism involved is firmly established.
The link between high GI, processed foods and diabetes is firmly established.
Highly processed, simple saccharides (sugars) such as maltose, fructose, sucrose and glucose/dextrose, if eaten in large quantities WILL impair insulin/glucose sensitivity EVEN in healthy exercising adults... and will eventually lead to the myriad illnesses and maladies related to impaired insulin/glucose sensitivity, most notably obesity and diabetes.

I do however understand Blake's line of thinking. The difference between banana's and glucose powder is more complicated than the end result of glucose molecules in the bloodstream. In a banana the glucose molecules are bound up in starches (amylopectin and amylose) the quantities of which vary (a very ripe banana is mostly amylopectin, giving the fruit a GI of 80ish, whereas a green banana is mostly amylose giving the fruit a GI of 40ish). The glucose you get from your GI 70 banana is digested complete with all the water, phytochemicals, vitamins, minerals, salts and nutrients your body would expect to be part of the digestive process, the same cannot be said of glucose powder. Processed sugars are nutritionally insipid, they leech vitamins and minerals from the tissues, upset the osmotic balance of the digestive tract due to their dehydrating properties and are just downright counter to health.

Guys, seriously read up on this stuff. Healthy natural eating is the way to go. The only supplements a (natural) bodybuilder should use are those that augment an already healthful high protein, high lipid, nutritious wholefood diet.
I'd recommmend:
-a high dose multivitamin, multimineral
-vitamin C (3+ grams per day)
-vitamin E (800 iu per day)
-Udo's Choice Ultimate Oil Blend
-a good quality whey protein concentrate
(or a whey protein isolate for those without financial restrictions)
-a bedtime zinc/magnesium mix
-creatine
-NAC (N-acetyl-cysteine) 500 mg ...it's the mother of all antioxidants

Again, guys please do some of your own research... any inkling of nutrtional savy would tell you that mixing 50 or 100 grams of sugar into your post workout shake is madness.

The Luke

LOL.  You certainly typed a whole lot in order to show "I can't prove what I'm saying".

In your above post you state:

Quote
Highly processed, simple saccharides (sugars) such as maltose, fructose, sucrose and glucose/dextrose, if eaten in large quantities WILL impair insulin/glucose sensitivity EVEN in healthy exercising adults...and will eventually lead to the myriad illnesses and maladies related to impaired insulin/glucose sensitivity, most notably obesity and diabetes.

Prove it Luke.  It really shouldn't be that hard to back up if it's truly the case, right?  You should be able to quickly point to case after case (I mean, it's got to be documented somewhere, right?) of healthy exercising adults developing diabetes and becoming obese (your words, Luke) specifically because they were consuming dextrose as part of their post workout nutrition.  Remember, we're not talking about the over-consumption of dextrose in sedentary/obese individuals who eat a typical Western diet.

And another quote of yours:

Quote
any inkling of nutrtional savy would tell you that mixing 50 or 100 grams of sugar into your post workout shake is madness.

Ever heard of John Berardi or Lyle McDonald (to name a few)? If you haven't, check out T-Nation.com or bodyrecomposition.com.  I don't think many people would doubt their "nutritional savvy", yet consuming dextrose pre/during/post (even high amounts, OMG!) workout is often recommended by them.

And to quote one of my clinical nutrition books: "In diabetes, blood glucose remains high after a meal because insulin is either inadequate or ineffective.  Thus, while blood glucose is central to diabetes, dietary carbohydrates do not cause diabetes."

Again Luke, prove that diabetes can be caused by the type of carbohydrates a person eats.
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The Luke
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2006, 05:24:28 AM »

Blake,

You seem to infer in your post that you'd concede sedentary people become obese and/or develop diabetes as a result of over-consumption of high GI carbohydrates and dextrose...

"Remember, we're not talking about the over-consumption of dextrose in sedentary/obese individuals who eat a typical Western diet."

...maybe the crux of the question is why you believe exercising people are immune to the effects of excessive glucose/sugar consumption??

Also, I think you missed my point about the medical study... your criteria are way too specific, finding the study you want would be tantamount to saying people born on Wednesdays are immune to cancer because there haven't been any peer-reviewed studies proving that anyone ever born on a Wednesday has died of cancer.

I may have written a lot in my previous post... maybe you should have read it.

The Luke

PS-for the record I'm not against the ingestion of consuming high GI carbs in the 30-60 mins after a weights workout, The efficacy of such practices has been proven time and time again... I just don't see why that means powdered sugar? Why not rice, or fruit, or patatoes?
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2006, 12:06:52 PM »

Anybody else feel really stupid after reading these posts? 

 Undecided
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an123
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2006, 12:53:41 PM »

Anybody else feel really stupid after reading these posts? 

 Undecided

No, it is just you.  I personally agree with The Luke, I fell into the dextrose trap for a while.  Really it never benefited me in any way.
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2006, 01:22:58 PM »

Not about the dextrose craba**, he just uses a lot of big words in all his posts...

 Undecided

And dude, has there ever been anything that has benefited you?

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an123
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2006, 01:54:04 PM »

The gym, food, protein powder.

I'm guessing steroids would help, but i'd prefer not.
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2006, 02:02:47 PM »

Blake,

You seem to infer in your post that you'd concede sedentary people become obese and/or develop diabetes as a result of over-consumption of high GI carbohydrates and dextrose...

"Remember, we're not talking about the over-consumption of dextrose in sedentary/obese individuals who eat a typical Western diet."

...maybe the crux of the question is why you believe exercising people are immune to the effects of excessive glucose/sugar consumption??

Also, I think you missed my point about the medical study... your criteria are way too specific, finding the study you want would be tantamount to saying people born on Wednesdays are immune to cancer because there haven't been any peer-reviewed studies proving that anyone ever born on a Wednesday has died of cancer.

I may have written a lot in my previous post... maybe you should have read it.

The Luke

PS-for the record I'm not against the ingestion of consuming high GI carbs in the 30-60 mins after a weights workout, The efficacy of such practices has been proven time and time again... I just don't see why that means powdered sugar? Why not rice, or fruit, or patatoes?

I say the Luke is a 21 year old know it all.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2006, 02:03:35 PM »

who really doesn't know jack.
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The Luke
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2006, 02:27:23 PM »

Yes guys that's right... I'm the moron, the real secret of bodybuilding success is choking down a bowlful of sugar after every workout.

If, by some strange contrivance of circumstance you find yourself without a bowlful of sugar post workout, then I recommend you gulp down at least a litre of Coca-Cola post haste... your muscle building progress may depend on it.


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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2006, 03:08:32 PM »

I agree with Luke, stick to the basics when it comes to supplements..... eat a good healthy meal, drink a protien shake, and be happy. Its not that complicated.
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2006, 10:00:24 PM »

Luke is a moron, posting all this hogwash crap. Just becuase you make long ass posts doesn't make you any smarter than anyone else. In fact, as already posted, your posts could be trimmed down to one sentence.

To the original poster,

post-workout you would like a 2:1 ratio of carbs (Dextrose) to whey.

Taking dextrose post-workout will not lead to type II diabetes as some idiots like here to insinuate. The only cause that can be linked to diabetes is obesity.

You can get your dextrose at any reputable online shop such as 1fast400 which I prefer. And also a great place to look is your local wine/beer shop. Dex usually runs about $1/lb
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The Luke
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2006, 03:31:02 AM »

Can someone explain the reasoning here?? Why is dextrose suddenly the be-all-and-end-all of post workout nutrition??

And why only dextrose/glucose??
Is it the GI score of 100??
If so, then why not use maltodextrin?
It has a GI of 102... why not tofu??
It has a GI of 103 to 105... why has everyone latched onto dextrose??
What about sticky white rice? GI of 98
What about Rice Krispies? GI of 95

Why not just inject the glucose intraveinously?

The Luke
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2006, 01:49:56 PM »

Can someone explain the reasoning here?? Why is dextrose suddenly the be-all-and-end-all of post workout nutrition??

And why only dextrose/glucose??
Is it the GI score of 100??
If so, then why not use maltodextrin?
It has a GI of 102... why not tofu??
It has a GI of 103 to 105... why has everyone latched onto dextrose??
What about sticky white rice? GI of 98
What about Rice Krispies? GI of 95

Why not just inject the glucose intraveinously?

The Luke

would you just quit posting? you are wasting server space.

To answer your moronic question - yes, you can use all of those post-workout.

Why dextrose? It's cheap, and it's easy to mix in your shake.
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The Luke
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2006, 03:07:35 PM »

Cheap and easy to mix... why not use table sugar?? That's half glucose, you could just use twice as much? Couldn't you?


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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2006, 04:05:27 PM »


 Keep it SIMPLE and STUPID everyone...

 After cardio? Go w/ a serving of BCAA's/Glutamine. When you get home from the gym(if you do your cardio at the gym like me) which lets say is a 10 minute drive...go w/ a whey shake mixed in water about 40-50grams of whey...and a couple packets of low-sugar flavored oatmeal.

 If you're competing...1 cup of regular oatmeal w/ a little spenda and cinnamon.

  Take a multi-vitamin and carry on.

 After weights? Same thing basically...50grams of whey...little glutamine, 3 grams of creatine, 2 packets of low-sugar oatmeal. Keep it simple!
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2006, 04:10:21 PM »

Keep it SIMPLE and STUPID everyone...

 After cardio? Go w/ a serving of BCAA's/Glutamine. When you get home from the gym(if you do your cardio at the gym like me) which lets say is a 10 minute drive...go w/ a whey shake mixed in water about 40-50grams of whey...and a couple packets of low-sugar flavored oatmeal.

 If you're competing...1 cup of regular oatmeal w/ a little spenda and cinnamon.

  Take a multi-vitamin and carry on.

 After weights? Same thing basically...50grams of whey...little glutamine, 3 grams of creatine, 2 packets of low-sugar oatmeal. Keep it simple!

Agree! I do that plus I throw in Vit C, E and B Complex as antioxi's.
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