Author Topic: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?  (Read 4333 times)

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A lot of good points here:

http://theantimedia.org/trump-trying-lose-election/


“‘In August 2015, I wrote a column for The Hill titled “Is Trump a Clinton plant?‘ At the time, I wrote that I was not seriously suggesting that Donald Trump is running as a Hillary Clinton plant for the purpose of bringing a second Clinton to the White House, but noted some facts.
“For many years Trump, has heaped high praise on both Bill and Hillary Clinton throughout their tenures at every major office they have held since the 1992 campaign. I also noted that Trump has offered praise and campaign donations that continued for many years to prominent liberals and Democratic leaders such as Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (Nev.), Sen. Chuck Schumer (N.Y.) and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.).
“A year after my tongue-in-cheek column asking whether Trump is running as a plant to elect Hillary Clinton, I will now raise the possibility, much more seriously, that one way to explain Trump’s repeatedly self-destructive behavior could be that deep down Trump does not want to win the election and is clumsily throwing the game.
“I am not stating that I believe that Trump wants to lose to Clinton, but I am suggesting there is at least some possibility that this is the case.
“Why might Trump, in theory, want to lose the election?
“Perhaps Trump originally decided to run to get some publicity for his business, or satisfy his ego, but never expected he had a real chance to win. Perhaps it suddenly dawned on Trump that he did have some chance to win, and was petrified at the thought of filing the detailed financial disclosures that presidents are required by law to file, for the same reason he is hiding his tax returns and which, I predict, he will never willfully release. Perhaps Trump suddenly realized he did not really want his finger on the nuclear button. Perhaps he just concluded that he did want to do the work that the presidency requires.
“Think about it. If a candidate genuinely wants to become president, would he repeatedly insult the giant wave of Hispanic voters? Would he insult veterans who were heroic prisoners of war by saying that he ‘like people who weren’t captured?’ Would he repeatedly insult the 2008 GOP nominee and great war hero, Sen. John McCain (Ariz.)?
“If a candidate actually wants to become president, would he and his advisers plan a strategy that includes praising the mass-murdering communist dictator of North Korea? Which voters did Trump believe he would win with that one? If a candidate truly wants to become president, would he and his foreign policy advisors plan a strategy that repeatedly praises Vladimir Putin, the strongman dictator of Russia, and say he is not sure he would defend Europe nations from a Russian invasion? Does Trump believe there is a pro-Putin vote in America?

“Or, as Trump often says, perhaps there is something happening here. Some people might say he does these things because he wants to lose the election and is throwing the game to Clinton.

“I have been to many rodeos in national politics, and literally every single major player in politics that I know expected Trump to “pivot” after the conventions to appear to take more responsible positions and say fewer irresponsible and self-destructive things.

“Republicans believed Trump would pivot with hope; Democrats believed he would pivot with dread.

“Nobody I know believed that Trump would pivot in the opposite direction, becoming even more irresponsible and self-destructive after the conventions.
“Did Trump and his campaign managers develop a strategy to attack a Gold Star mother and father? Could any presidential candidate who wants to be elected seem to publicly support Russian espionage against America, and take positions so extreme that a former acting CIA director calls him “an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation”? Would any candidate who actually wants to win make comments about the Second Amendment and a political opponent so that the Secret Service is not happy, the same kind of comments that helped Harry Reid pulverize his Republican opponent into dust in his last reelection campaign?

“I predict that Trump will never release his tax returns because there is something in those returns he intensely fears being revealed. Shall we speculate about what could be so devastating in his undisclosed tax returns? Is it not possible, possibly even likely, that he might dread the thought, for similar reasons, of filing his financial disclosure papers if he is elected president?

“There has been some speculation in GOP circles about whether Trump might drop out of the campaign. This is possible, but I doubt it. The more likely scenario, if Trump does not want to be elected president, is that he will keep saying and doing things that any freshman political science student in college would know will doom his candidacy, and that after he loses a potential landslide to Hillary Clinton, will shout from the rooftops: ‘I was robbed!’

“I am not saying that I believe Donald Trump is trying to throw the election to Hillary Clinton, but I am saying this is a prospect that is now worth seriously considering if the endless series of Trump blunders and gaffes continues.”

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 08:14:11 AM »
A lot of good points here:

http://theantimedia.org/trump-trying-lose-election/


“‘In August 2015, I wrote a column for The Hill titled “Is Trump a Clinton plant?‘ At the time, I wrote that I was not seriously suggesting that Donald Trump is running as a Hillary Clinton plant for the purpose of bringing a second Clinton to the White House, but noted some facts.
“For many years Trump, has heaped high praise on both Bill and Hillary Clinton throughout their tenures at every major office they have held since the 1992 campaign. I also noted that Trump has offered praise and campaign donations that continued for many years to prominent liberals and Democratic leaders such as Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (Nev.), Sen. Chuck Schumer (N.Y.) and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.).
“A year after my tongue-in-cheek column asking whether Trump is running as a plant to elect Hillary Clinton, I will now raise the possibility, much more seriously, that one way to explain Trump’s repeatedly self-destructive behavior could be that deep down Trump does not want to win the election and is clumsily throwing the game.
“I am not stating that I believe that Trump wants to lose to Clinton, but I am suggesting there is at least some possibility that this is the case.
“Why might Trump, in theory, want to lose the election?
“Perhaps Trump originally decided to run to get some publicity for his business, or satisfy his ego, but never expected he had a real chance to win. Perhaps it suddenly dawned on Trump that he did have some chance to win, and was petrified at the thought of filing the detailed financial disclosures that presidents are required by law to file, for the same reason he is hiding his tax returns and which, I predict, he will never willfully release. Perhaps Trump suddenly realized he did not really want his finger on the nuclear button. Perhaps he just concluded that he did want to do the work that the presidency requires.
“Think about it. If a candidate genuinely wants to become president, would he repeatedly insult the giant wave of Hispanic voters? Would he insult veterans who were heroic prisoners of war by saying that he ‘like people who weren’t captured?’ Would he repeatedly insult the 2008 GOP nominee and great war hero, Sen. John McCain (Ariz.)?
“If a candidate actually wants to become president, would he and his advisers plan a strategy that includes praising the mass-murdering communist dictator of North Korea? Which voters did Trump believe he would win with that one? If a candidate truly wants to become president, would he and his foreign policy advisors plan a strategy that repeatedly praises Vladimir Putin, the strongman dictator of Russia, and say he is not sure he would defend Europe nations from a Russian invasion? Does Trump believe there is a pro-Putin vote in America?

“Or, as Trump often says, perhaps there is something happening here. Some people might say he does these things because he wants to lose the election and is throwing the game to Clinton.

“I have been to many rodeos in national politics, and literally every single major player in politics that I know expected Trump to “pivot” after the conventions to appear to take more responsible positions and say fewer irresponsible and self-destructive things.

“Republicans believed Trump would pivot with hope; Democrats believed he would pivot with dread.

“Nobody I know believed that Trump would pivot in the opposite direction, becoming even more irresponsible and self-destructive after the conventions.
“Did Trump and his campaign managers develop a strategy to attack a Gold Star mother and father? Could any presidential candidate who wants to be elected seem to publicly support Russian espionage against America, and take positions so extreme that a former acting CIA director calls him “an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation”? Would any candidate who actually wants to win make comments about the Second Amendment and a political opponent so that the Secret Service is not happy, the same kind of comments that helped Harry Reid pulverize his Republican opponent into dust in his last reelection campaign?

“I predict that Trump will never release his tax returns because there is something in those returns he intensely fears being revealed. Shall we speculate about what could be so devastating in his undisclosed tax returns? Is it not possible, possibly even likely, that he might dread the thought, for similar reasons, of filing his financial disclosure papers if he is elected president?

“There has been some speculation in GOP circles about whether Trump might drop out of the campaign. This is possible, but I doubt it. The more likely scenario, if Trump does not want to be elected president, is that he will keep saying and doing things that any freshman political science student in college would know will doom his candidacy, and that after he loses a potential landslide to Hillary Clinton, will shout from the rooftops: ‘I was robbed!’

“I am not saying that I believe Donald Trump is trying to throw the election to Hillary Clinton, but I am saying this is a prospect that is now worth seriously considering if the endless series of Trump blunders and gaffes continues.”

this guy should go back to school and learn how to write a coherent article

He mentions his tongue in cheek premise of Trump being a "Clinton Plant" and then says a year later that maybe  "Trump is running as a plant to elect Hillary Clinton"

and then he never mentions "plant" again or how Clinton "planted him" or why or what's in it of him, etc..

same stupid shit we've seen on this board

IF you're going to write an article claiming Trump is a Clinton Plant then how about you address and support your premise

Here is a clue for anyone who can't see the obvious....Trump can enter the race on a lark and not really want the job without being a Clinton Plant - which makes a LOT more sense

If Bernie were the nominee Trump would almost certainly  be acting exactly the same way (i.e acting the same way in the general election as he did in the primaries which is exactly the same as he's acted his entire life)

So I guess in that alternative universe Trump would be suspected of being a Bernie Plant

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 08:15:21 AM »
SC posted this in another thread a while back.  There are at least few good articles around stating the opinion, and some of them were written months ago -- so the case has only gotten stronger since then.

At the very least, I don't see how anyone could explain why it's so 'ridiculous' to suspect it.

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 08:18:28 AM »
Straw, here's a good one.  Third post down (Mark Hughes)

https://www.quora.com/Could-Trump-be-a-Democratic-plant-Is-he-trying-to-help-Hillary

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 08:24:30 AM »
SC posted this in another thread a while back.  There are at least few good articles around stating the opinion, and some of them were written months ago -- so the case has only gotten stronger since then.

At the very least, I don't see how anyone could explain why it's so 'ridiculous' to suspect it.

suspect it is fine

all they need to do is support their premise

in the article above all he does it explain that he believes Trump is trying to lose and somehow we're supposed to conclude that is proof that he was "planted"?

Why can't Trump want to run for his ego, attention, building his brand, etc...while not really wanting the job,  without being "planted"

doesn't that seem like the much more obvious conclusion?

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 08:27:13 AM »
Straw, here's a good one.  Third post down (Mark Hughes)

https://www.quora.com/Could-Trump-be-a-Democratic-plant-Is-he-trying-to-help-Hillary

Can you just excerpt the sections that explain exactly how the Clintons planted Trump.  How they got him to work for them. etc..

you know, the actually proof of planting, how and why etc.... and not just that "trump is trying to lose"

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2016, 08:27:53 AM »
But it's true, I suppose, if you asked his kids wtf he thinks he's doing and whether they'll admit it looks like he's trying to tank it: they'd just say he's being himself.  Which is probably true.

The guy on quora smashes it out of the park, imo.  He nailed it.

Straw Man

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2016, 08:32:00 AM »
But it's true, I suppose, if you asked his kids wtf he thinks he's doing and whether they'll admit it looks like he's trying to tank it: they'd just say he's being himself.  Which is probably true.

The guy on quora smashes it out of the park, imo.  He nailed it.

can you post the sections of his article that address the questions I asked?

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2016, 08:32:50 AM »
Can you just excerpt the sections that explain exactly how the Clintons planted Trump.  How they got him to work for them. etc..

you know, the actually proof of planting, how and why etc.... and not just that "trump is trying to lose"

Just wait until you're looking for something to read, and trust me it's a good few minutes spent.

Btw, it was written about a year ago.

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2016, 08:35:13 AM »
Just wait until you're looking for something to read, and trust me it's a good few minutes spent.

Btw, it was written about a year ago.

written a year ago?

what a surprise

so you're saying the article contains no actual proof or explanation of the "plant" premise?

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2016, 08:36:08 AM »
written a year ago?

what a surprise

so you're saying the article contains no actual proof of explanation of the "plant" premise?

He makes a very strong case.

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2016, 08:39:34 AM »
He makes a very strong case.

great,

can you post the sections that answer my specific questions

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 08:48:08 AM »
great,

can you post the sections that answer my specific questions

Yeah, I'll post it up later and highlight stuff in it or whatever.  But the whole thing takes only a couple minutes to read, at most. 

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2016, 08:51:04 AM »
Yeah, I'll post it up later and highlight stuff in it or whatever.  But the whole thing takes only a couple minutes to read, at most. 

you can just summarize the points that address those questions if it's easier

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2016, 08:57:06 AM »
you can just summarize the points that address those questions if it's easier


I think you have read it, actually.  I mentioned it to you in another thread and you bailed on everyone you were arguing with, which tells me you didn't want to deal with the reality of it.

But I was thinking about posting it, anyway, and will definitely do that.

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2016, 09:06:19 AM »
I think you have read it, actually.  I mentioned it to you in another thread and you bailed on everyone you were arguing with, which tells me you didn't want to deal with the reality of it.

But I was thinking about posting it, anyway, and will definitely do that.

what thread are you talking about?

I'll be glad to go back to it

sometimes I get very busy with work and just don't log on for days

bump any thread you want and I'll address it again

keep in mind at some point, such as in this thread, I ask the same questions and if the other person can't answer then whats the point of going on and on

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2016, 09:17:31 AM »
what thread are you talking about?

I'll be glad to go back to it

sometimes I get very busy with work and just don't log on for days

bump any thread you want and I'll address it again

keep in mind at some point, such as in this thread, I ask the same questions and if the other person can't answer then whats the point of going on and on

I know, bro.  It's good.  I'll post that later and try to highlight the better parts.  But one thing I'll say, is that some of these really rich people are truly fucked in the brain.  They are so removed from reality that they have no hope of ever seeing that.  I don't exactly know what Trump himself thinks he's up to, but this is a really weird election.

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2016, 09:44:34 AM »
I know, bro.  It's good.  I'll post that later and try to highlight the better parts.  But one thing I'll say, is that some of these really rich people are truly fucked in the brain.  They are so removed from reality that they have no hope of ever seeing that.  I don't exactly know what Trump himself thinks he's up to, but this is a really weird election.

I don't even believe the premise that he's trying to lose

That's an opinion that his actions (which seem CRAZY) must mean that he doesn't really want to win

This guy is a world class megalomaniac who thinks he's the smartest guy on the planet ("I have a very good brain"  "I'm mostly consulting with myself", "no one knows the system better than me" etc..)

His actions have been consistent the entire time and have obviously been successful to this point

He is immune to criticism or guidance because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2016, 05:49:03 PM »
I don't even believe the premise that he's trying to lose

That's an opinion that his actions (which seem CRAZY) must mean that he doesn't really want to win

This guy is a world class megalomaniac who thinks he's the smartest guy on the planet ("I have a very good brain"  "I'm mostly consulting with myself", "no one knows the system better than me" etc..)

His actions have been consistent the entire time and have obviously been successful to this point

He is immune to criticism or guidance because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else


Yes, the thought is that Clinton had Trump's number with all this.

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2016, 05:56:03 PM »
The strategy is to take something an opponent has relied on as a strength (in Trump's case, it could be what he views as his "honest bluntness", say) and make it so it works against him.  

This may be the most extreme case of the strategy, ever.  Certainly in American politics.

Quote
People who dismiss the idea that Clinton and others privately encouraged Trump to run because they smartly calculated it would create disarray in the GOP (which has indeed happened) and help the Democrats in the long run, are vastly underestimating the brilliance of the Clintons and their inner circle.

The Clintons invented the modern concept of triangulation in Democratic politics (taking the GOP's strongest policy issues and coopting them) and of turning an opponent's supposed strengths into a perceived negative/weakness and then using it as a bludgeon to beat them over the head with.

Karl Rove does this on the GOP side, but the Clintons were so masterful at it that they did it without it even being obvious they were doing it. How many people reading this truly grasp the importance of the fact Clinton took Ronald Reagan and used him as an example of WEAKNESS and FAILURE in the GOP? Not just in messaging to Democrats, mind you, but to the public at large and (most importantly) to independents. And he did it without ever seeming to bash Reagan personally even though he was repudiating the entirety of Reagan's presidency and everyone who claimed it accomplished anything good.

The point is, the Clintons have a more nuanced and complex an understanding of politics and strategy, and of undermining an opponent, than anyone involved in modern politics. Bill Clinton himself could probably sell a fireplace to the Devil, that's how convincing and charismatic he is. He makes people feel like the most important person in the world, and to someone like Trump that would be a pretty powerful political aphrodisiac. Imagine having a former U.S. president -- and one commonly perceived as being among the smartest and most astute -- tell you you should run for president while he fans your ego (and in this theory, imagine you have possibly the biggest and hungriest ego in the galaxy).

Does someone have to KNOW they are a plant, in order to be one? Do you have to realize you're being used as a tool to dismantle a party machine, in order to function effectively as that tool? I say the answer to that is "no." If the Clintons and others secretly worked behind the scenes to convince Trump to run and fed ideas and encouragement to his worst tendencies in order to derail the already-shaky GOP nominating season, and if Trump listened to them and took their advice to heart, then he is functioning pretty effectively as their intended plant.

It doesn't matter if he realizes their motivations or not. He might indeed have been entirely conscious of how and why the Clintons perceived his campaigning as an advantage for them, but he just doesn't agree or just doesn't care so long as (a) it serves his own purposes of expanding his own brand, and (b) he thinks he might actually be smarter than them and able to actually win regardless of what they think. The bottom line is, if they had a plan and took action to implement it, and if so far it's worked out as they hoped and expected, and if Trump's awareness is irrelevant to their plan's success at this point in time, then he's functioning as a plant exactly the same as he would if he were doing all of this intentionally to help them out.


Now, IS it true? Well, I think it's clear Clinton had private conversations with Trump; it's clear Clinton wants to deny and silence any talk of having played a role in Trump's candidacy; it's clear Trump doesn't want anyone to think the conversations were a factor in his decision to run; and it's clear that Trump's campaign has had exactly the same impact it would have if the Clintons had planned it out and encouraged it. So, the outcome is the same as if the theory were true; we know they did in fact meet, which the theory depends on; and we know they want us to stop thinking about it, which is what they'd do and say if the theory were true. None of which proves the theory is true, but it certainly goes a long way to undermining any strong assertions that the theory is absurd or irrational, or that it lacks at least some basic evidence making it interesting to consider and reasonable to think it's at least possible. Calling it ridiculous etc just seems to demonstrate a lack of appreciation for the fact this sort of thing is extremely common in politics, and is extremely consistent with the sort of maneuvering the Clintons are famously capable of thinking up and pulling off effectively while nobody believes it's possible.

Oh, and if you're doubting it based on the claim that Clinton couldn't keep his sex life secret, then I'd just point out that the fact you're aware of some secrets that they didn't keep quiet doesn't mean you're aware of all of the secrets you don't already know about. The severe flaw in the simplistic "the government can't keep secrets" claim is that it relies on the assumption you already know all of the secrets, when in fact if the government has kept secrets then you by definition aren't aware of them yet. Then there are all of the examples of major secrets the government kept for years and decades. More to the point, though, for those who think this theory can't be true because Clinton/the government/etc can't keep secrets -- we're discussing it right here, right now, so obviously it ISN'T a secret anyway, right? Right.

I'll tell you what I think... I think the Clintons got wind Trump was considering another run, they realized it was probably just a minor ego-boosting idea in Trump's head, so Clinton reached out and encouraged Trump, and then also reached out to other people to get THEM to encourage Trump, with the idea Trump would be such a huge disruption he'd draw most of the media attention from other more "serious" GOP contenders while also (very importantly) drawing attention away from the ongoing controversies surrounding Hillary Clinton. Trump's press coverage is dominating all of the election reporting lately, and has done much to stain the GOP's image with independents, moderates, and the two most important voting demographics for the 2016 election -- Latino voters and women voters.

So I don't for a second believe Clinton was talking with Trump and that those discussions never touched on the election, and that it's a coincidence Trump decided to make a big run for the nomination. Coincidences like this, and the way it's played out, don't just "happen" when the Clintons are involved in an election, folks.

Trump agreeing to run after being influenced by Clinton and others doesn't remotely require him to have the intended purpose of harming the GOP nor of helping the Democrats, by the way. Clinton wouldn't have to approach Trump by asking him outright to derail the GOP, nor would Clinton suggest, "Hey Trump, you'd be so awful you'd make the public hate the GOP, so would you run?" He'd probably point to all of Trump's strengths as a candidate, the way certain policy positions and "plain talk" would rally the GOP base around Trump, how there are no really strong personalities in the GOP field at this time who can compete with Trump's personality, and how the outcome is a huge boon for Trump whether he gets the nomination or not since it will vastly increase Trump's personal brand and put him in a much stronger bargaining position for future TV shows and media deals.

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2016, 08:17:13 PM »
I don't even believe the premise that he's trying to lose

That's an opinion that his actions (which seem CRAZY) must mean that he doesn't really want to win

This guy is a world class megalomaniac who thinks he's the smartest guy on the planet ("I have a very good brain"  "I'm mostly consulting with myself", "no one knows the system better than me" etc..)

His actions have been consistent the entire time and have obviously been successful to this point

He is immune to criticism or guidance because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else

I agree with you. He is not trying to lose. But what is even more scary is IF he were trying to lose, he would probably have done everything the same...

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2016, 08:47:54 PM »
I agree with you. He is not trying to lose. But what is even more scary is IF he were trying to lose, he would probably have done everything the same...

I don't know if that's true and also don't know why that is more scary

I'd be way more scared of this idiot actually winning the election

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2016, 09:20:51 PM »
I don't know if that's true and also don't know why that is more scary

I'd be way more scared of this idiot actually winning the election

because he is so bad at it, you can argue he is trying to lose.. so yeah, the scary part would be if he won

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2016, 09:22:00 PM »
Could be that he'd like to win but is scared to.

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Re: Is Trump Trying to Lose the Election to Hillary Clinton on Purpose?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2016, 09:23:56 PM »
But I do believe Clinton marked him.  Absolutely no doubt.