Gary Johnson Objects to the Term 'Illegal Immigrant'

[TuHolmes]

Yes, you can absolutely make the case that during the building of this country, back when, immigrants made it happen.  Nearly all opportunity was new.

You don't think opportunity is still available?

I guess I'm of the mindset that it is and we have not come close to reaching a tipping point, but that's my view on things I suppose.

Isn't a lot of this how you view your current life and the world around you?

[Las Vegas]

You don't think opportunity is still available?

I guess I'm of the mindset that it is and we have not come close to reaching a tipping point, but that's my view on things I suppose.

Isn't a lot of this how you view your current life and the world around you?

I know that nearly all opportunity, now, is handed over from one person to the next.

[TuHolmes]

I know that nearly all opportunity, now, is handed over from one person to the next.

Would you mind elaborating on this a bit?

[Las Vegas]

Would you mind elaborating on this a bit?

I'd say it's the difference between looking at the country in the 1800s, and looking at it in the present.  Things are now built and established, land is all claimed,  etc. 

In fact, we've reached the point in which technology is making unbelievably huge leaps toward replacing people as a means of production, and we will see that become a stark reality.  Then what?  We must account for so many more than otherwise, which requires all the more resources. 

So the entire argument that our policies are somehow making things most "cost effective for everyone" turns out to be worth one large cart of manure.  It's a lie.

[TuHolmes]

I'd say it's the difference between looking at the country in the 1800s, and looking at it in the present.  Things are now built and established, land is all claimed,  etc.  

In fact, we've reached the point in which technology is making unbelievably huge leaps toward replacing people as a means of production, and we will see that become a stark reality.  Then what?  We must account for so many more than otherwise, which requires all the more resources.  

So the entire argument that our policies are somehow making things most "cost effective for everyone" turns out to be worth one large cart of manure.  It's a lie.

This part is true, but also misleading a bit.

For instance, this country has huge areas where there is not one single person. As a matter of fact, there are areas where the states will give you the land for free if you just build something on it.

Now, the premise of replacing people for production is true, but then the repair and maintenance of these machines is still required.

I see it much as a shift in skill set, more so than just removing people from the equation.

Similarly to how today, you don't have blacksmiths, but instead have auto mechanics.

I do see your point of course, and I get where you are coming from, I just don't necessarily agree with the premise.

That doesn't mean I'm right of course, it will take time and history to make that determination.

I could very well be completely wrong in my ideals.

[Las Vegas]

This part is true, but also misleading a bit.

For instance, this country has huge areas where there is not one single person. As a matter of fact, there are areas where the states will give you the land for free if you just build something on it.

Now, the premise of replacing people for production is true, but then the repair and maintenance of these machines is still required.

I see it much as a shift in skill set, more so than just removing people from the equation.

Similarly to how today, you don't have blacksmiths, but instead have auto mechanics.

I do see your point of course, and I get where you are coming from, I just don't necessarily agree with the premise.

That doesn't mean I'm right of course, it will take time and history to make that determination.

I could very well be completely wrong in my ideals.

The unavoidable fact is that fewer people are required, and even fewer yet every year, as an absolute trend.  But someone needs to clue-in the folks in other countries, because the population is expanding like mad.  

Something's gotta give, and so far it's been our middle class as it shrinks in power.  That's the problem.  HUGE problem.

[Bindare_Dundat]

How anyone could vote for this guy is beyond me.

Exactly.  complete idiot

[chaos]

I agree with him. The term illegal immigrant is kind of stupid really.

I sure wish all of those immigrants back in the 1600s had checked in with the Native Americans back then.

Don't get me wrong, I know that it's how the world works, people fight, someone wins, someone loses, but the idea that people think that only THEY should be fortunate enough to be born in the greatest country on earth really bugs me.

How is it stupid? They broke the law coming into this country that the existing inhabitants have in place. Did the native Americans have laws about outsiders coming in and abusing their countrys handouts? If you know people that have immigrated here legally ask them how they feel about illegals and amnesty. The few I know despise them.

[TuHolmes]

How is it stupid? They broke the law coming into this country that the existing inhabitants have in place. Did the native Americans have laws about outsiders coming in and abusing their countrys handouts? If you know people that have immigrated here legally ask them how they feel about illegals and amnesty. The few I know despise them.

I just don't agree with the premise that only the fortunate few deserve the best.

I would ask you how old the legal immigrants are and how they did their immigration.

I agree that legal immigration is the way, but I also know that the government buracracy is ridiculous.
The way immigration is today makes legal immigration damn near impossible unless you are from an enemy nation and are defecting or are from Cuba.

Many many years ago, being a legal citizen and getting through the process was much different and more efficient.

We all agree that government fucks up everything. They make it harder to do things for no good reason.

Do we magically think the government is more efficient when it comes to legal immigration or their immigration policies?

Of course not. They just fuck that up too.

I just think the immigration procedure in the US is a damn mess and that makes it much more likely for someone to just overstay their Visa or whatever.

Sure, some are just walking across the border, but the last I read, that's lessened by a lot and may even be a net loss going the other way.

[Las Vegas]

Best way to help solve worldwide desperation is to protect and grow the middle class.

[TuHolmes]

Best way to help solve worldwide desperation is to protect and grow the middle class.

No disagreement with that.

Do you think that the middle class is being put out by the immigration of people from South and Central America?

[Las Vegas]

No disagreement with that.

Do you think that the middle class is being put out by the immigration of people from South and Central America?

You mean are middle-class Americans being displaced by Central and South Americans?  I'd say yes, because their opportunities end up becoming diluted just by numbers alone.  It's only slighly less direct than with Asians, but the end result is the exactly the same.

I believe a poor American sees a heavily diminished chance of ever progressing to the middle class, though, as a direct consequence of immigration from Mexico, Central and South America.

[TuHolmes]

You mean are middle-class Americans being displaced by Central and South Americans?  I'd say yes, because their opportunities end up becoming diluted just by numbers alone.  It's only slighly less direct than with Asians, but the end result is the exactly the same.

I believe a poor American sees a heavily diminished chance of ever progressing to the middle class, though, as a direct consequence of immigration from Mexico, Central and South America.

What middle class jobs are you saying are being diluted?

I don't even think construction is being diluted in a middle class perspective. Maybe the lowest paying jobs in construction yes, but aren't most South and Central americans taking the lower class positions?

[chaos]

I just don't agree with the premise that only the fortunate few deserve the best.

I would ask you how old the legal immigrants are and how they did their immigration.

I agree that legal immigration is the way, but I also know that the government buracracy is ridiculous.
The way immigration is today makes legal immigration damn near impossible unless you are from an enemy nation and are defecting or are from Cuba.

Many many years ago, being a legal citizen and getting through the process was much different and more efficient.

We all agree that government fucks up everything. They make it harder to do things for no good reason.

Do we magically think the government is more efficient when it comes to legal immigration or their immigration policies?

Of course not. They just fuck that up too.

I just think the immigration procedure in the US is a damn mess and that makes it much more likely for someone to just overstay their Visa or whatever.

Sure, some are just walking across the border, but the last I read, that's lessened by a lot and may even be a net loss going the other way.

2 are citizens less than 5 years, one is about 12 years. I agree the process is overblown and extravagant,  but that doesn't excuse breaking the law and being rewarded for it. That negates any pride or hardships legal immigrants had to deal with on their path to citizenship.

[TuHolmes]

2 are citizens less than 5 years, one is about 12 years. I agree the process is overblown and extravagant,  but that doesn't excuse breaking the law and being rewarded for it. That negates any pride or hardships legal immigrants had to deal with on their path to citizenship.

I don't disagree.

I am not talking about rewarding anyone by the way. If you are an "illegal", you don't and shouldn't have any of the benefits that go along with being a citizen of the country.

[Las Vegas]

What middle class jobs are you saying are being diluted?

Any which now have more individuals aiming to get them, which covers about everything.  Immigrants want to have a better life, just like everyone else.

I don't even think construction is being diluted in a middle class perspective. Maybe the lowest paying jobs in construction yes, but aren't most South and Central americans taking the lower class positions?

Yes, and just about all service jobs and everything else in between.  We went from using a certain excuse regarding migrant farm labor and applied it to essentially all positions on the lower end of the job market.

[TuHolmes]

Any which now have more individuals aiming to get them, which covers about everything.  Immigrants want to have a better life, just like everyone else.

Yes, and just about all service jobs and everything else in between.  We went from using a certain excuse regarding migrant farm labor and applied it to essentially all positions on the lower end of the job market.

Possibly, but as you said, that's the lower end of the job market.

Not inherently the middle-class right?

I mean, illegals aren't becoming nurses and things or whatever... They don't have the paperwork to have those positions.

[Las Vegas]

Possibly, but as you said, that's the lower end of the job market.

Not inherently the middle-class right?

I mean, illegals aren't becoming nurses and things or whatever... They don't have the paperwork to have those positions.

The fact is that an immigrant has the same desires as any American, and upon arrival will operate to fulfill them in the same manner as any native-born person.

Any obstacle which might slow the immigrant down (like an inability to obtain a professional license, if that's the case) will immediately cease to be a issue for offspring.

[TuHolmes]

The fact is that an immigrant has the same desires as any American, and upon arrival will operate to fulfill them in the same manner as any native-born person.

Any obstacle which might slow the immigrant down (like an inability to obtain a professional license, if that's the case) will immediately cease to be a issue for offspring.

Surely, but offspring are citizens of course and no longer "immigrants" right?

[Las Vegas]

Surely, but offspring are citizens of course and no longer "immigrants" right?

That's why they're called "anchor babies", yes.

[TuHolmes]

That's why they're called "anchor babies", yes.

So the law of the country should be changed?

The anchor part is meaning you can't deport the parents because the child is a citizen.

Not quite the same thing.

[Las Vegas]

So the law of the country should be changed?

The anchor part is meaning you can't deport the parents because the child is a citizen.

Not quite the same thing.

That's why the word "anchor" is used.  True.

[TuHolmes]

That's why the word "anchor" is used.  True.

Yes. But they are two different issues. This is an expansion perhaps, but not exactly the same in regards to the shrinking middle class.

Children of immigrants would also want to be in the middle class and therefore cause its expansion. 

[Las Vegas]

Yes. But they are two different issues. This is an expansion perhaps, but not exactly the same in regards to the shrinking middle class.

Not sure I follow.

Children of immigrants would also want to be in the middle class and therefore cause its expansion. 

Just by wishing, you mean?

[chaos]

I mean, illegals aren't becoming nurses and things or whatever... They don't have the paperwork to have those positions.

They do after "amnesty" and they get special funding. My sister in law just finished all this nursing crap to get licensed and most stopped at the level below her but many bilingual students weren't born here.