A criticism of God

[FREAKgeek]

Recently in the news, a mother left her 2 year old son in a  locked car on a hot day to die of dehydration - one of thousands of daily worldwide tragedies that occur to innocent children.

I guess as a believer you do have to thank god for comparatively trivial matters in your own lives, cause he can be quite the indifferent bastard.

[Man of Steel]

Recently in the news, a mother left her 2 year old son in a  locked car on a hot day to die of dehydration - one of thousands of daily worldwide tragedies that occur to innocent children.

I guess as a believer you do have to thank god for comparatively trivial matters in your own lives, cause he can be quite the indifferent bastard.

Mother was at fault...not God.

[FREAKgeek]

Mother was at fault...not God.

Right. God never holds any accountability, he's perfect. He was too busy at the church bingo night and athletic competitions.

[Man of Steel]

Right. God never holds any accountability, he's perfect. He was too busy at the church bingo night and athletic competitions.

Is God responsible for your post?  
Are you a believer in him today?  

God wills that you not post in opposition of him.
God wills you become a believer in him.

Yet you posted in opposition of him.
Yet you are not a believer in him.

How is it possible that God wills one thing and the opposite results?
Where does God's accountability begin and end in your opinion?
What if someone else has a different opinion of God's accountability?
Which one of your opinions is correct as it pertains to God?

I could ask a hundred more questions.

[Erik C]

Why doesn't god just speak to all people, not just religious schizzies, who hear voices.

[FREAKgeek]

Is God responsible for your post?  
Are you a believer in him today?  

God wills that you not post in opposition of him.
God wills you become a believer in him.

Yet you posted in opposition of him.
Yet you are not a believer in him.

How is it possible that God wills one thing and the opposite results?
Where does God's accountability begin and end in your opinion?
What if someone else has a different opinion of God's accountability?
Which one of your opinions is correct as it pertains to God?

I could ask a hundred more questions.

I purposely left myself out of this argument and used innocent children instead. You seem to have no issue with god answering trivial prayers on whim while people who truly need it (my example) are abandoned. That was my point. It makes no sense.

[Man of Steel]

I purposely left myself out of this argument and used innocent children instead. You seem to have no issue with god answering trivial prayers on whim while people who truly need it (my example) are abandoned. That was my point. It makes no sense.

No need to strawman me.  I can defend my actual position and beliefs perfectly fine.

Your argument is your argument.  It has little or nothing to do with my actual position.

If you want to argue my position then we can do that.

[Man of Steel]

Why doesn't god just speak to all people, not just religious schizzies, who hear voices.

He does.  Through his word.  Through his creation.  Through Jesus Christ.  Through the Holy Spirit.  Through believers such as myself.

Many profess his reality and many suppress it.   There's really only those two categories of folks.

[Erik C]

Many profess his reality and many suppress it.   There's really only those two categories of folks.

Wrong! There is also the category that I'm in, who just don't believe in unsubstantiated nonsense. Why don't  you trot out the old geezer, and let him speak in public, where I too can hear him.

[FREAKgeek]

No need to strawman me.  I can defend my actual position and beliefs perfectly fine.

Your argument is your argument.  It has little or nothing to do with my actual position.

If you want to argue my position then we can do that.

This wasn't directed towards you, it was generalized.

[FREAKgeek]

Why doesn't god just speak to all people, not just religious schizzies, who hear voices.

He secretly reveals himself to a few people, then puts the burden on them to tell the rest of the world what's up. The fabrication couldn't work your way, it would be exposed.

[Man of Steel]

Wrong! There is also the category that I'm in, who just don't believe in unsubstantiated nonsense. Why don't  you trot out the old geezer, and let him speak in public, where I too can hear him.

There's those that profess him and those that suppress him, but all know he's there.  That's really it.

Claims like "unsubstantiated nonsense", "sky daddies", etc...are just excuses to continue suppression...nothing more.  

[Man of Steel]

This wasn't directed towards you, it was generalized.

Oh I see, my mistake.  I apologize and thanks for the clarification.   

In that instance I would agree that many believers do seek God for help with the trivialities of life and ignore the substance of life.

[Man of Steel]

He secretly reveals himself to a few people, then puts the burden on them to tell the rest of the world what's up. The fabrication couldn't work your way, it would be exposed.

God reveals himself to everyone in many ways.  Through his word.  Through his creation.  Through Jesus Christ.  Through the Holy Spirit.  Through believers such as myself.

[FREAKgeek]

God reveals himself to everyone in many ways.  Through his word.  Through his creation.  Through Jesus Christ.  Through the Holy Spirit.  Through believers such as myself.

I don't agree. It is man that reveals god to other men, either through written or verbal testimony, similar to what you do. If what you said is true, there would be universal acceptance and no conflicting religions in this world. There would be independent discovery without man-made indoctrination. It is painfully apparent that it's a product of your upbringing and environment. Some people need a god because it psychologically copes with the hardships of life and gives certainty and order in their lives. That's why it stays in business.

[Man of Steel]

I don't agree. It is man that reveals god to other men, either through written or verbal testimony, similar to what you do. If what you said is true, there would be universal acceptance and no conflicting religions in this world. There would be independent discovery without man-made indoctrination. It is painfully apparent that it's a product of your upbringing and environment. Some people need a god because it psychologically copes with the hardships of life and gives certainty and order in their lives. That's why it stays in business.

Revelation of God by men is simply one way it's accomplished, but it's God's preferred method.

Since we've entered the Christian worldview then we're bound by its tenets which also includes the spiritual enemies of God.  Religious perversion is absolutely dictated by the spiritual enemies of God....the demonic kingdom.   Spiritual warfare is at play and therefore strategy is employed.  Islam is essentially the Bizzaro-version of Chrstianity.  It borrows directly from it and then fully perverts it....that is demonically motivated.   Everyone universally knows that God exists, but demonic perversion coupled with individual suppression of God's truth accounts for a non-universal acceptance of God.

Plenty of examples of folks born and raised outside of Christians nations that had no biblical scripture or influence came to know God within those circumstances.   Being born into a Christian nation is simply a blessing of God and I'm fortunate that I was.  Doesn't make me better than someone that wasn't, just makes me better off.  Although, some of the world's greatest Christian apologists/theologians came out of non-Christian homes, countries and circumstances.

Yes, some people need psychological help via God, but not all.  Some genuinely seek God and are grieved in their souls because of their offenses against God.  Those that come to know the Lord tend to cling to him fully for their total sustanence.  Non-believers attempt to spin that circumstance as a negative.  The notion of "I'm stronger than that....y'all are weak and need God to survive."  It's simple ignorance on part of the non-believer, but fact of matter is that God is assembling his church...an army of the meek, humble and contrite.  

Although, when claims of "only physically and mentally weak men believe in God" is raised before me I'm happy to challenge that individual to an arm wrestling match while I share the gospel with them and answer their objections.   Haven't had any takers yet.

[FREAKgeek]

Plenty of examples of folks born and raised outside of Christians nations that had no biblical scripture or influence came to know God within those circumstances.  

Not without some missionary or human influence.

For example, the spread of Christianity to the Americas -when European civilization discovered and colonized them. You would have a strong argument if the indigenous tribes there independently discovered Christianity, but that's just simply not the case.

[Man of Steel]

Not without some missionary or human influence.

For example, the spread of Christianity to the Americas -when European civilization discovered and colonized them. You would have a strong argument if the indigenous tribes there independently discovered Christianity, but that's just simply not the case.

That isn't always the case.  Missionary work is certainly important and commanded in scripture, but it isn't the only means by which folks from non-Christian countries/regions come to Christ.   What folks don't often understand that there is also a drawing by God to believers.  Many folks intrinsically recognize this divine drawing and act upon it of their own accord.  Many folks that have never heard of Jesus Christ recognize God via his creation and give their lives to God in humble surrender without knowing Jesus' name yet they are made righteous by Christ like others that have heard his word.  There are also special revelations of God to many in non-Christian countries/regions....another aspect of God's drawing.   Bibles are shipped worldwide are far as they can possibly be shipped and have no missionary influence attached to them whatsoever.  Yet through the very power of that word people come to Jesus Christ.  These bibles are translated in almost every known language today so that the Great Commission can be fulfilled.

Yes, early America was founded upon Christian values, but the fact that the gospel is spread via missionary work through men doesn't negate my position or devalue my argument.  It strengthens it and brings glory to God.  Often times nonbelievers mistakenly interpret man's involvement in the spreading the word of God as somehow flawed, but that's simple ignorance.

The Great Commission is a command of Jesus.  To spread the gospel to all areas of the world.  Early on that was accomplished on via word-of-mouth, but as time has gone on the ability to communicate is growing rapidly and technology is certainly aiding the missionary cause and whole of the great commission.

[FREAKgeek]

, but the fact that the gospel is spread via missionary work through men doesn't negate my position or devalue my argument. 

Yes it does. Your god can't exist without human influence. You also can't justify a loving god that is supposedly involved in human affairs that lets innocent children die every day no fault of their own. That is pure contradiction.

[Man of Steel]

Yes it does. Your god can't exist without human influence. You also can't justify a loving god that is supposedly involved in human affairs that lets innocent children die every day no fault of their own. That is pure contradiction.

You'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence.   You'll need to justify how you know that.

Why is it unloving for children to die?   Why is it a contradiction?   What is a contradiction?

[FREAKgeek]

You'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence.   You'll need to justify how you know that.

God's existence is entirely absent. This is easily verifiable via empirical observation. The burden of proof is on you because you claim otherwise. You simply saying it's self evident or quoting scripture is not proof. You have mentioned nothing that's substantial.


Here is a quote from Jesus Mathew 7:7

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

How does this apply to the 20, 000 children who starve to death and other atrocities that happen on a daily basis?You find nothing contradictory in this?

[Man of Steel]

God's existence is entirely absent. This is easily verifiable via empirical observation. The burden of proof is on you because you claim otherwise. You simply saying it's self evident or quoting scripture is not proof. You have mentioned nothing that's substantial.


Here is a quote from Jesus Mathew 7:7

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

How does this apply to the 20, 000 children who starve to death and other atrocities that happen on a daily basis?You find nothing contradictory in this?

Yet I've experienced God so that claim is instantly refuted.

What proof am I required to provide?  These are your assertions that I'm responding too LOL and I know you're avoiding...done these dances for years.

That said, you'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence.   You'll need to justify how you know that.

Why is it unloving for children to die?   Why is it a contradiction?   What is a contradiction?

Further, quoting scripture for which you have no foundation to interpret or discern is meaningless.   It's a red herring to avoid answering questions.

[FREAKgeek]

It's OK if you can't answer my questions. Don't mirror them back at me in futility, that's weak.

[Man of Steel]

It's OK if you can't answer my questions. Don't mirror them back at me in futility, that's weak.

LOL, really?   All I do is answer questions....all the time.....for years......but when I ask a few questions for clarification or to further discussion most run for the hills.  If this is your M.O. then tell me how the view is.

Now, if you're able to dialogue I'll still need to understand more about the following:

You'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence.  The simple assertion that "you say so" or "it's common sense" isn't sufficient.  

You'll need to justify how you know that.   Now, I'm assuming you're an atheist and given that you have no genuine experience with God so you're speaking from a place of absolute ignorance.

Why is it unloving for children to die?  Saying that it's unloving doesn't provide any justification.  It's pure subjectivity.  Do you have more than your opinion to base this conclusion on?  

Why is it a contradiction?  Which elements of your statements make up the contradiction?  God's love and children's death?  God's existence and children's suffering?        

What is a contradiction?  Do you mean the logical impossibility of the contrary?  Do you mean something else?  

[FREAKgeek]

You'll need to explain how God can't exist without human influence.  The simple assertion that "you say so" or "it's common sense" isn't sufficient.  

You'll need to justify how you know that.   Now, I'm assuming you're an atheist and given that you have no genuine experience with God so you're speaking from a place of absolute ignorance.

If you want a proof that god doesn't exist it's not possible. See, I do answer questions unlike yourself. You claim to have a relationship with god, like a diplomat, I don't know why you can't do the same. It should be easy

However, you can argue the justification for one. Prove to me that Russell's teapot doesn't orbit the sun. You can't then it must exist.