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Author Topic: Humanity is cosmically special. Here’s how we know  (Read 4117 times)
Man of Steel
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2017, 06:32:45 AM »

interesting watching a debate about a resurrection that is alleged to have happened 2000 years ago based on a collection of stories from a book, and using the words special pleading and nonsequitur. I almost spit out my coffee

Well share the joke with the rest of us Carrot Top!  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2017, 07:51:20 AM »

I've read Geisler's commentary, read his book on Islam, watched him debate, watched him preach....I've read many other books and commentaries from other authors/theologians.

So please forgive me, but what exactly is your point with the copy and paste?  What did you learn from the commentary?  Ready to give your life to Christ?

Or is this your support for hardened hearts and lack of faith of the apostles?  Or are you changing topics?

With your comment on sexism are you now changing topics in that direction?  I'm fully prepared to speak to that topic if you prefer.  

I assume with this you're redirecting and raising the standard God and his believers are "lying, sexist, hypocritical bigots" argument?   Women submitting to men, women being the helpers to men, women being lead by men, not speaking aloud in church, not being leaders in a church, OT instances of polygamy and men having concubines?  Or is it something else?  


my point is, it's doubtful that most of these people (some of them classified as saints too) would be believers of the gospel today given such firsthand proof they needed.
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2017, 08:01:37 AM »

my point is, it's doubtful that most of these people (some of them classified as saints too) would be believers of the gospel today given such firsthand proof they needed.

Understood.  Good thing God came as the incarnate Son of God in Jesus Christ on earth for approx 33 years so his ministry, teaching, miracles and lifestyle could be witnessed and documented and the majority of that doubt put to rest.  Unfortunately not everyone wanted to believe even with Jesus in their face LOL.

Would the saints of scripture be believers today if they didn't experience what they did while alive on earth?  I suspect some might not believe if we didn't have all this evidence as you've noted.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2017, 10:04:52 AM »

Understood.  Good thing God came as the incarnate Son of God in Jesus Christ on earth for approx 33 years so his ministry, teaching, miracles and lifestyle could be witnessed and documented and the majority of that doubt put to rest.  Unfortunately not everyone wanted to believe even with Jesus in their face LOL.

Would the saints of scripture be believers today if they didn't experience what they did while alive on earth?  I suspect some might not believe if we didn't have all this evidence as you've noted.

all this evidence?
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2017, 12:08:34 PM »

all this evidence?

Of course, there's a ton of evidence to support the existence of God and the events/people of the bible.

The problem is if objectors refuse to follow the evidence or abide by scripture they remain ignorant and mocking....that simple really.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2017, 01:37:27 PM »

my point is, it's doubtful that most of these people (some of them classified as saints too) would be believers of the gospel today given such firsthand proof they needed.
The whole doubting issues in the bible make the stories unlikely imo. You just spent time personally observing God doing all manner of miracles, you watched in person, god, upon moses request, part the seas to allow escape... but because Moses takes too long in the mountains getting the 10 commandments you decide to build golden statues and worship them? Come on...
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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2017, 01:45:49 PM »

The whole doubting issues in the bible make the stories unlikely imo. You just spent time personally observing God doing all manner of miracles, you watched in person, god, upon moses request, part the seas to allow escape... but because Moses takes too long in the mountains getting the 10 commandments you decide to build golden statues and worship them? Come on...

and the books telling of these tales are more than sufficient for the generations to come
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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2017, 04:09:11 PM »

and the books telling of these tales are more than sufficient for the generations to come

Makes you wonder..
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2017, 10:01:21 AM »

The whole doubting issues in the bible make the stories unlikely imo. You just spent time personally observing God doing all manner of miracles, you watched in person, god, upon moses request, part the seas to allow escape... but because Moses takes too long in the mountains getting the 10 commandments you decide to build golden statues and worship them? Come on...

and the books telling of these tales are more than sufficient for the generations to come

Makes you wonder..

So the complaint is that God was there with the nation of Israel performing miracles and yet they still act a fool and deny him, remain ignorant, learn nothing and opt for the pleasure of their sin therefore the story in scripture is far fetched or ridiculous?  

That is an interesting point.

It's kinda like today when nonbelievers put forth objections about God and someone like myself comes along and resolves many of them and helps them understand how exactly to know God and instead they cling to their resolved objections, remain in ignorance, learn nothing, continue to deny God and opt for the pleasure of their sin.

I agree it does make you wonder.
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« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2017, 10:40:32 AM »

So the complaint is that God was there with the nation of Israel performing miracles and yet they still act a fool and deny him, remain ignorant, learn nothing and opt for the pleasure of their sin therefore the story in scripture is far fetched or ridiculous?  

That is an interesting point.

It's kinda like today when nonbelievers put forth objections about God and someone like myself comes along and resolves many of them and helps them understand how exactly to know God and instead they cling to their resolved objections, remain in ignorance, learn nothing, continue to deny God and opt for the pleasure of their sin.

I agree it does make you wonder.

No, it's nothing like that really..
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2017, 06:27:31 AM »

No, it's nothing like that really..

Really?  Well what is it like then?
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2017, 09:41:26 AM »

Really?  Well what is it like then?

That humans don't work that way. Humans will believe a religious con artist like Tillerson even after journalistic investigators discover thousands of unread prayer requests, con artists that pretend to heal even AFTER it is proven they used wireless communication to let the "preacher" know what ailments the subject had... so, if they actually witnessed the sea parting, there is just no friggin way they are going to stop following simply because Moses took an extra day or two to get back. Just ain't happening
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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2017, 11:19:58 AM »

That humans don't work that way. Humans will believe a religious con artist like Tillerson even after journalistic investigators discover thousands of unread prayer requests, con artists that pretend to heal even AFTER it is proven they used wireless communication to let the "preacher" know what ailments the subject had... so, if they actually witnessed the sea parting, there is just no friggin way they are going to stop following simply because Moses took an extra day or two to get back. Just ain't happening

Why did the Israelites make the golden calf?

What did the calf represent for the Israelites?

How long was Moses gone?
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2017, 12:14:56 PM »

Why did the Israelites make the golden calf?

What did the calf represent for the Israelites?

How long was Moses gone?

all irrelevant questions, rabbit trails...
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« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2017, 01:46:30 PM »


It's kinda like today when nonbelievers put forth objections about God and someone like myself comes along and resolves many of them and helps them understand how exactly to know God and instead they cling to their resolved objections, remain in ignorance, learn nothing, continue to deny God and opt for the pleasure of their sin.



You don't accept any objections, it's not in your comprehension.

You had an experience in your life that was physically threatening, you got better due to the odds against you, and attribute this to god and your past dealings with Christianity. Nothing will convince you otherwise, so it's pointless to argue.
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« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2017, 01:56:27 PM »

all irrelevant questions, rabbit trails...

I understand how it would appear that way to someone that doesn't understand context or the purpose of the questions and I don't mean that to be insulting either....plenty of topics I don't understand either.  

I choose my words carefully and don't use red herrings similar to those CONSTANTLY used by others when arguing with me.

If you don't know, you don't know...that's fine.  Although, I honestly don't think you'd care even if I gave you an explanation LOL and today I don't have the time for detailed replies.
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« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2017, 01:57:52 PM »


You don't accept any objections, it's not in your comprehension.

You had an experience in your life that was physically threatening, you got better due to the odds against you, and attribute this to god and your past dealings with Christianity. Nothing will convince you otherwise, so it's pointless to argue.

Your assessment of my situation is absolutely incorrect and no amount of me telling you otherwise will change your opinion.....you know what you think you know and that's good enough for you.   My testimony remains my testimony and the details therein remain unchanged even if you choose to gloss over or ignore some of the more poignant ones.   This isn't about you "figuring me out" LOL.....I've been an open book for years.   Either you get it or you don't.
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« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2017, 02:00:11 PM »

Your assessment of my situation is absolutely incorrect and no amount of me telling you otherwise will change your opinion.....you know what you think you know and that's good enough for you.

so you do accept objections to your god?
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« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2017, 02:24:01 PM »

so you do accept objections to your god?

Of course provided the objection raised doesn't have a definite explanation that resolves it or at the very least casts doubt upon it.  

Whether or not someone is willing to digest that explanation and potentially change their mindset is an altogether different story.

I've had more experienced believers explain things to me and correct my understanding of passages of scripture in the past.   I'm sure I'll have more of those situations in the future.

Do I have answers to every objection raised?  Of course not.  I answer where I can and seek out an answer if I don't know it already.

When it comes to the majority of objections raised on GB I typically have pre-written, canned answers at the ready because I've typically gone over the same objections dozens of times in the past.  It's rare today when something new is raised that I haven't answered directly, read about or overheard.

It's typically when someone takes a passage of scripture, ignores context and history and perverts it to conform to their desired outcome that I'll encounter something new or unusual...can't predict a lot of those things.
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« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2017, 05:39:30 PM »

Of course provided the objection raised doesn't have a definite explanation that resolves it or at the very least casts doubt upon it.  

lol.

I do find humor in you, MOS. And I know you're being dead serious.  Grin
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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2017, 08:46:08 AM »

lol.

I do find humor in you, MOS. And I know you're being dead serious.  Grin

I get it.  You're most likely laughing at the "casts doubt upon it" because that's the atheist foundation....casting doubt on theism and believing atheism has done so successfully.

As I've made clear to so many atheists/agnostics before you I'm not here to change your mind or the next atheist's mind or the atheist after that.  As far as I'm concerned the atheists' opinions are set in stone and unfortunately those folks have sealed their own fate.

My purpose is to share the gospel of Christ and challenge - at every turn possible - cliched objections, twisted scripture, logical fallacies, etc...for the benefit of the reader that has not made up their mind about God.  I want people to see that atheist/agnostic objections can be resolved and sometimes easily.  Typically the atheist does the majority of question asking, but I refuse to allow atheism to corner the market on asking questions.  So I both defend my position (exhaustively at times) and force atheists to answers questions as well.

I thank God he's sustained me as long as he has and when it's time for me to leave GB the community of atheists and agnostics can rejoice!!  That time ain't come yet though....sorry.
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2017, 10:55:01 AM »

MOS, what do you imagine would happen if tomorrow, the earth stopped it's rotation around the sun?
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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2017, 12:48:32 PM »

Why did the Israelites make the golden calf?

What did the calf represent for the Israelites?

How long was Moses gone?

1. Because they were concerned Moses had been gone too long, his absence as a representative of God, left them feeling God/Moses may have abandoned them, so they created or had Aaron create a golden calf out of the jewelry these slaves had brought with them (red flag)

2. a God, as they were used to worshipping idols prior to their deliverance from bondage. Their religion had plural gods at the time   

3. 40 days (red flag)

10 plagues were brought down upon Egypt, the sea was parted, and yet 40 days later they are ready to build a golden calf. Again, one needs to ask themselves this simple question. Is this story more likely true... or a fable or allegory passed down through generations.
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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2017, 01:46:20 PM »

1. Because they were concerned Moses had been gone too long, his absence as a representative of God, left them feeling God/Moses may have abandoned them, so they created or had Aaron create a golden calf out of the jewelry these slaves had brought with them (red flag)

2. a God, as they were used to worshipping idols prior to their deliverance from bondage. Their religion had plural gods at the time   

3. 40 days (red flag)

10 plagues were brought down upon Egypt, the sea was parted, and yet 40 days later they are ready to build a golden calf. Again, one needs to ask themselves this simple question. Is this story more likely true... or a fable or allegory passed down through generations.

Correct, they thought Moses may have died and they were left almost leaderless (with the exception of Aaron).

Now back to original premise you put forth which was (and I'm paraphrasing) "how could the Israelites after witnessing all those miracles suddenly abandon God and act a fool cause Moses was gone a couple extra days?  Because people just don't do that."

Hence my questions.  Moses was gone for 40 days not just a few.  They constructed the calf as an idol to God and as you mentioned they were accustomed to many gods being worshiped in the ancient near east....especially in Egypt in which they were enslaved. 

Further, Moses had not yet returned with the commandments which included the commandment to not make and worship false idols.

When people are involved in situations of uncertainty coupled with stress and anxiety they sometimes panic, they sometimes riot, they sometimes act a fool.   When order or the appearance of order is stripped from people some freak out, lash out, cry out, etc.....  The Israelites were God's chosen people, but they were still regular, fallible people and they made a mistake.

So despite their miraculous deliverance from captivity they panicked in that moment and erorred in judgment.  It happens to people all the time when stress is high.  These folks were not staying at the Ritz Carlton.  They really didn't know where they were, what Moses was doing, when/if he was coming back, etc......they were scared and they made an idol to represent the God that delivered them from captivity, but they shouldn't have.
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« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2017, 02:25:02 PM »

MOS, what do you imagine would happen if tomorrow, the earth stopped it's rotation around the sun?

I don't know exactly, but it would be bad situation.  Crops, seasons, tides, weather, etc....would all be impacted.   A sudden, natural stop of the earth's movement would potentially shift continents.  Again, don't really know.
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