Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
December 11, 2017, 03:26:22 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Humanity is cosmically special. Here’s how we know  (Read 4520 times)
loco
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 10974


loco like a fox


« on: December 06, 2016, 06:07:39 AM »

Howard A. Smith is a lecturer in the Harvard University Department of Astronomy and a senior astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.

"We seem to be cosmically special, perhaps even unique — at least as far as we are likely to know for eons."

"The universe, far from being a collection of random accidents, appears to be stupendously perfect and fine-tuned for life. The strengths of the four forces that operate in the universe — gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear interactions (the latter two dominate only at the level of atoms) — for example, have values critically suited for life, and were they even a few percent different, we would not be here."

"The bottom line for extraterrestrial intelligence is that it is probably rarer than previously imagined, a conclusion called the misanthropic principle. For all intents and purposes, we could be alone in our cosmic neighborhood"

"Some of my colleagues strongly reject this notion. They would echo Hawking: “I can’t believe the whole universe exists for our benefit.” Yes, we all have beliefs — but beliefs are not proof. Hawking’s belief presumes that we are nothing but ordinary, a “chemical scum.” All the observations so far, however, are consistent with the idea that humanity is not mediocre at all and that we won’t know otherwise for a long time. It seems we might even serve some cosmic role"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/humanity-is-cosmically-special-heres-how-we-know/2016/11/25/cd327520-b0cc-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html?utm_term=.cac032467a4c
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2016, 06:47:52 AM »

Howard A. Smith is a lecturer in the Harvard University Department of Astronomy and a senior astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.

"We seem to be cosmically special, perhaps even unique — at least as far as we are likely to know for eons."

"The universe, far from being a collection of random accidents, appears to be stupendously perfect and fine-tuned for life. The strengths of the four forces that operate in the universe — gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear interactions (the latter two dominate only at the level of atoms) — for example, have values critically suited for life, and were they even a few percent different, we would not be here."

"The bottom line for extraterrestrial intelligence is that it is probably rarer than previously imagined, a conclusion called the misanthropic principle. For all intents and purposes, we could be alone in our cosmic neighborhood"

"Some of my colleagues strongly reject this notion. They would echo Hawking: “I can’t believe the whole universe exists for our benefit.” Yes, we all have beliefs — but beliefs are not proof. Hawking’s belief presumes that we are nothing but ordinary, a “chemical scum.” All the observations so far, however, are consistent with the idea that humanity is not mediocre at all and that we won’t know otherwise for a long time. It seems we might even serve some cosmic role"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/humanity-is-cosmically-special-heres-how-we-know/2016/11/25/cd327520-b0cc-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html?utm_term=.cac032467a4c
Thanks for the post!!

Eventually science (knowledge) will include what believers already know.....they're getting there....slowly LOL.  Hopefully they get there before the rude awakening.
Report to moderator   Logged

loco
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 10974


loco like a fox


« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2016, 07:08:08 AM »

Thanks for the post!!

Eventually science (knowledge) will include what believers already know.....they're getting there....slowly LOL.  Hopefully they get there before the rude awakening.

You ain't lying, brotha!   Smiley
Report to moderator   Logged
Necrosis
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 9704


« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2017, 10:03:33 AM »

Howard A. Smith is a lecturer in the Harvard University Department of Astronomy and a senior astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.

"We seem to be cosmically special, perhaps even unique — at least as far as we are likely to know for eons."

"The universe, far from being a collection of random accidents, appears to be stupendously perfect and fine-tuned for life. The strengths of the four forces that operate in the universe — gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear interactions (the latter two dominate only at the level of atoms) — for example, have values critically suited for life, and were they even a few percent different, we would not be here."

"The bottom line for extraterrestrial intelligence is that it is probably rarer than previously imagined, a conclusion called the misanthropic principle. For all intents and purposes, we could be alone in our cosmic neighborhood"

"Some of my colleagues strongly reject this notion. They would echo Hawking: “I can’t believe the whole universe exists for our benefit.” Yes, we all have beliefs — but beliefs are not proof. Hawking’s belief presumes that we are nothing but ordinary, a “chemical scum.” All the observations so far, however, are consistent with the idea that humanity is not mediocre at all and that we won’t know otherwise for a long time. It seems we might even serve some cosmic role"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/humanity-is-cosmically-special-heres-how-we-know/2016/11/25/cd327520-b0cc-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html?utm_term=.cac032467a4c


Hello loco, I am not an atheist but the arguments he is presenting are not rationally sound. If a puddle of water could contemplate it's life it would perhaps come to the conclusion that the hole it finds itself in is perfect for it, it holds it perfectly, it must have been created for the puddle or at least with the puddle in mind. The universe is devoid of life more so than it is full, that's obvious. We have no other universe to compare it to thus the fine-tuning is impossible to quantify.

I certainly believe in a god, a Spinoza type substance that is transcendent and immanent. Spinoza did say Jesus had the closest line to god every articulated, his concept of love and being god (everything is god) is correct in my estimation.

Report to moderator   Logged
FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2017, 03:15:48 AM »

Howard A. Smith is a lecturer in the Harvard University Department of Astronomy and a senior astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.

"We seem to be cosmically special, perhaps even unique — at least as far as we are likely to know for eons."

"The universe, far from being a collection of random accidents, appears to be stupendously perfect and fine-tuned for life. The strengths of the four forces that operate in the universe — gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear interactions (the latter two dominate only at the level of atoms) — for example, have values critically suited for life, and were they even a few percent different, we would not be here."

"The bottom line for extraterrestrial intelligence is that it is probably rarer than previously imagined, a conclusion called the misanthropic principle. For all intents and purposes, we could be alone in our cosmic neighborhood"

"Some of my colleagues strongly reject this notion. They would echo Hawking: “I can’t believe the whole universe exists for our benefit.” Yes, we all have beliefs — but beliefs are not proof. Hawking’s belief presumes that we are nothing but ordinary, a “chemical scum.” All the observations so far, however, are consistent with the idea that humanity is not mediocre at all and that we won’t know otherwise for a long time. It seems we might even serve some cosmic role"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/humanity-is-cosmically-special-heres-how-we-know/2016/11/25/cd327520-b0cc-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html?utm_term=.cac032467a4c

Religion has been trying to argue this for millennia. First they thought the earth was in the center of the universe. Then, risking lives, it was finally accepted that the sun was. Then it was determined that our position in the galaxy was at no special place, and our sun is an ordinary star in the main sequence. Then it was determined that our galaxy is one of billions, in no special place or classification in the universe. This is a more modern version of the same unsubstantiated argument.
Report to moderator   Logged
FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2017, 04:14:29 AM »

Which comes to mind,

Did the apostles ever bother to ask such questions?  Tongue
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 09:39:44 AM »

Which comes to mind,

Did the apostles ever bother to ask such questions?  Tongue

Well since they were in the company of God himself and witnessed his abilities firsthand the majority probably didn't feel the need to question further.

You know, because God was walking among them teaching, preaching, leading, performing miracles, etc....
Report to moderator   Logged

FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 11:01:20 AM »

Well since they were in the company of God himself and witnessed his abilities firsthand the majority probably didn't feel the need to question further.

You know, because God was walking among them teaching, preaching, leading, performing miracles, etc....

It's very odd how there wasn't anything unprecedented in invention or scientifically knowledgeable in gain during that period. Just saying.

I would've asked if there was intelligent life on other worlds, but that's just me.

Oh but wait, you guys converse with him all the the time.
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 11:27:53 AM »

It's very odd how there wasn't anything unprecedented in invention or scientifically knowledgeable in gain during that period. Just saying.

I would've asked if there was intelligent life on other worlds, but that's just me.

Oh but wait, you guys converse with him all the the time.

What do you define as a "significant gain"?  A better chariot?  A toaster?  An iphone?

Well, they had the question answered about whether there was life on other worlds and the answer was "yes".  Christ left the divine and entered humanity on earth from another world.

We pray and we fellowship via the Holy Spirit.  The same Holy Spirit that indwelt the apostles once Christ returned to glory is the same Holy Spirit that indwells believers today.
Report to moderator   Logged

Las Vegas
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 6785


In God We Trust !


« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2017, 12:18:24 PM »

What do you define as a "significant gain"?  A better chariot?  A toaster?  An iphone?

Well, they had the question answered about whether there was life on other worlds and the answer was "yes".  Christ left the divine and entered humanity on earth from another world.

We pray and we fellowship via the Holy Spirit.  The same Holy Spirit that indwelt the apostles once Christ returned to glory is the same Holy Spirit that indwells believers today.

MoS, I imagine most are unfamiliar with this idea.  Please go into it a bit if you wouldn't mind.
Report to moderator   Logged

FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2017, 12:27:04 PM »

What do you define as a "significant gain"?  A better chariot?  A toaster?  An iphone?

Well, they had the question answered about whether there was life on other worlds and the answer was "yes".  Christ left the divine and entered humanity on earth from another world.

We pray and we fellowship via the Holy Spirit.  The same Holy Spirit that indwelt the apostles once Christ returned to glory is the same Holy Spirit that indwells believers today.

Well you have somewhat of a point. Diseases were completely misunderstood, it was just demon possession. It was common knowledge that the Earth was flat and universe centered, although a few cohorts ahead of their time did know better. Literacy was an aristocratic privilege and stuff like stoning and crucifixion was performed for petty crimes. The Romans didn't even have a concept for zero in mathematics.

We weren't exactly dealing with scholars.
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2017, 01:16:53 PM »

Well you have somewhat of a point. Diseases were completely misunderstood, it was just demon possession. It was common knowledge that the Earth was flat and universe centered, although a few cohorts ahead of their time did know better. Literacy was an aristocratic privilege and stuff like stoning and crucifixion was performed for petty crimes. The Romans didn't even have a concept for zero in mathematics.

We weren't exactly dealing with scholars.

You're right the apostles weren't scholars or scientists....they were ordinary men.....laborers, fisherman and a tax collector....we don't know all their professions.  Only a few of them under inspiration of the Holy Spirit penned any of the NT books.
Report to moderator   Logged

Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2017, 01:31:17 PM »

MoS, I imagine most are unfamiliar with this idea.  Please go into it a bit if you wouldn't mind.

I gotcha.

Believers in Christ are going to exist on God’s new earth that he will create and establish.  He will destroy the current earth and heavens.  God’s new earth will be a new “heaven”.  Currently God dwells in his heaven (the divine) which transcends our physical universe.   Our eternity won’t be an existence in his current heaven.

So, in essence, Christ came from another world to join humanity.

Report to moderator   Logged

Las Vegas
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 6785


In God We Trust !


« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 02:15:44 PM »

I gotcha.

Believers in Christ are going to exist on God’s new earth that he will create and establish.  He will destroy the current earth and heavens.  God’s new earth will be a new “heaven”.  Currently God dwells in his heaven (the divine) which transcends our physical universe.   Our eternity won’t be an existence in his current heaven.

So, in essence, Christ came from another world to join humanity.



I've noticed that one of the more insistent-type things someone might question toward, say, is for the "exact location" of Heaven (probably GB inspired to ask) and that perhaps its dimensionality is what could lead someone to deny everything.
Report to moderator   Logged

FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 04:46:42 AM »

You're right the apostles weren't scholars or scientists....they were ordinary men.....laborers, fisherman and a tax collector....we don't know all their professions.  Only a few of them under inspiration of the Holy Spirit penned any of the NT books.

The original 12 denied Jesus and lacked faith, they were closed hearted. It took seeing Jesus after the resurrection to finally be convinced.

Image trying to convince them today with just an ancient collection of books.
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2017, 05:43:16 AM »

The original 12 denied Jesus and lacked faith, they were closed hearted. It took seeing Jesus after the resurrection to finally be convinced.

Image trying to convince them today with just an ancient collection of books.

Can you direct me to the verses of scripture that support this?
Report to moderator   Logged

FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 03:24:38 PM »

Can you direct me to the verses of scripture that support this?


Matthew 26:56, it's probably mentioned in the other 3 books too.

Peter denied him 3 times, if you don't know that one I'm not bothering looking it up

They also needed visual proof of the resurrection, again if you don't know that I really question your study.
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2017, 12:35:33 PM »


Matthew 26:56, it's probably mentioned in the other 3 books too.

Peter denied him 3 times, if you don't know that one I'm not bothering looking it up

They also needed visual proof of the resurrection, again if you don't know that I really question your study.

Ah I see what you're referring to and yes I'm quite familiar with all three passages of scripture.

So what we need here is context because a text without context is a pretext.

The difficulty I sometimes have is how to very succinctly unravel arguments such as these.  Oh I can certainly unravel them, but doing so in a way that is succinct yet thorough enough is hard because GB readers (including myself) have a limited capacity for what they're willing to read and digest.  It's super easy to lay down an argument or objection without doing your homework and walk away.  It's an altogether different circumstance to defend against that argument/objection in quick and concise manner.  It's still extremely possible to do so.

That said, we go back to the original premise which was that the 12 disciples hearts were closed (or hardened) and they lost faith.

The chain of logic is essentially the following: because Peter denied Christ 3 times, because Thomas required visual proof of the resurrection and because the apostles fled when Christ was captured by the Romans (on behalf of the Sanhedrin) that their hearts were closed/hardened and they lost faith.

So first things first, this logic is both an example of special pleading and a nonsequitur.  Why?  Because context is king and missing completely.  

Second, what is meant by a hardened or closed heart?   The Koine Greek defines the hardening of the heart as a callousing of the heart in which permanent denial of God has occurred.   The most notable example of that being the pharaoh of Egypt.

That said, you simply can't justify your premise with the examples provided as valid justification because the apostles all went to their deaths evangelizing the gospel message of Jesus Christ to many nations (Judas excluded).   Many of the apostles suffering brutal deaths for the cause of Christ.

Now, what's significant about historical context in this situation?

The Israelites/Jews had prophecy established hundreds of years prior to the birth of Christ.  Their expectation of the coming Messiah was that of a conquering king that would destroy the enemy nations of Israel.   Many expected the Messiah to arrive and destroy the Roman government.  Unfortunately the Jews errored in interpretation of prophetic scripture and ignored the portions of scripture noting the gentleness by which the Messiah would arrive.  Instead they focused on the conquering, vanquishing king to come and had difficulty accepting the meekness and humility of Christ.  

Why did Peter deny Christ and why did the apostles flee when Christ was captured by Roman soldiers (on behalf of the Sanhedrin)?  Well, despite all the miraculous situations they experienced while in the company of Christ and the divine revelations and teachings they received they were still overcome by fear when "things got real".   They are human beings after all and fear can cause any of us to shrink at times.

Remember, believers today have the luxury of looking back at established history and drawing upon centuries of theological teaching and the ability to study fully canonized scripture.  Believers today also have the definite guidance of the Holy Spirit that indwells them.  The apostles were experiencing all of this unprecedented activity live and in vivid color.  The Holy Spirit was not in them yet and they were afraid in those difficult moments and they errored in their ways.

Now, the infamous "doubting Thomas" story has NOTHING to do with a hardened/closed heart, but certainly does illustrate a lack of faith.  God has promised that our faith will be repeatedly tested and as we become stronger and stronger believers that rate of success with increase.  Again, everything that was being experienced live at that time was unprecedented and documented only via prophetic scripture which not all Jews had access to.  The Pharisees and Sadducees of the Sanhedrin were the keepers and interpreters of this scripture.

So there were definitely moments in which the apostles faith was tested and in some instances they failed, but that has nothing to do with a closed/hardened heart.  And it certainly doesn't make your argument work in anyway whatsoever.....unless you ignore context.  I can't overcome that.

Report to moderator   Logged

FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 03:14:09 PM »

Ah I see what you're referring to and yes I'm quite familiar with all three passages of scripture.

So what we need here is context because a text without context is a pretext.

The difficulty I sometimes have is how to very succinctly unravel arguments such as these.  Oh I can certainly unravel them, but doing so in a way that is succinct yet thorough enough is hard because GB readers (including myself) have a limited capacity for what they're willing to read and digest.  It's super easy to lay down an argument or objection without doing your homework and walk away.  It's an altogether different circumstance to defend against that argument/objection in quick and concise manner.  It's still extremely possible to do so.

That said, we go back to the original premise which was that the 12 disciples hearts were closed (or hardened) and they lost faith.

The chain of logic is essentially the following: because Peter denied Christ 3 times, because Thomas required visual proof of the resurrection and because the apostles fled when Christ was captured by the Romans (on behalf of the Sanhedrin) that their hearts were closed/hardened and they lost faith.

So first things first, this logic is both an example of special pleading and a nonsequitur.  Why?  Because context is king and missing completely.  

Second, what is meant by a hardened or closed heart?   The Koine Greek defines the hardening of the heart as a callousing of the heart in which permanent denial of God has occurred.   The most notable example of that being the pharaoh of Egypt.

That said, you simply can't justify your premise with the examples provided as valid justification because the apostles all went to their deaths evangelizing the gospel message of Jesus Christ to many nations (Judas excluded).   Many of the apostles suffering brutal deaths for the cause of Christ.

Now, what's significant about historical context in this situation?

The Israelites/Jews had prophecy established hundreds of years prior to the birth of Christ.  Their expectation of the coming Messiah was that of a conquering king that would destroy the enemy nations of Israel.   Many expected the Messiah to arrive and destroy the Roman government.  Unfortunately the Jews errored in interpretation of prophetic scripture and ignored the portions of scripture noting the gentleness by which the Messiah would arrive.  Instead they focused on the conquering, vanquishing king to come and had difficulty accepting the meekness and humility of Christ.  

Why did Peter deny Christ and why did the apostles flee when Christ was captured by Roman soldiers (on behalf of the Sanhedrin)?  Well, despite all the miraculous situations they experienced while in the company of Christ and the divine revelations and teachings they received they were still overcome by fear when "things got real".   They are human beings after all and fear can cause any of us to shrink at times.

Remember, believers today have the luxury of looking back at established history and drawing upon centuries of theological teaching and the ability to study fully canonized scripture.  Believers today also have the definite guidance of the Holy Spirit that indwells them.  The apostles were experiencing all of this unprecedented activity live and in vivid color.  The Holy Spirit was not in them yet and they were afraid in those difficult moments and they errored in their ways.

Now, the infamous "doubting Thomas" story has NOTHING to do with a hardened/closed heart, but certainly does illustrate a lack of faith.  God has promised that our faith will be repeatedly tested and as we become stronger and stronger believers that rate of success with increase.  Again, everything that was being experienced live at that time was unprecedented and documented only via prophetic scripture which not all Jews had access to.  The Pharisees and Sadducees of the Sanhedrin were the keepers and interpreters of this scripture.

So there were definitely moments in which the apostles faith was tested and in some instances they failed, but that has nothing to do with a closed/hardened heart.  And it certainly doesn't make your argument work in anyway whatsoever.....unless you ignore context.  I can't overcome that.



Never in a million years.
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2017, 03:55:16 AM »

Never in a million years.

It sometimes sucks that I take time out to provide an explanation and know full well it won't typically be read.  BUT at least I now have yet another pre-written answer to draw upon.  Today's effort for future use is fine.
Report to moderator   Logged

FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2017, 04:27:03 AM »

It sometimes sucks that I take time out to provide an explanation and know full well it won't typically be read.  BUT at least I now have yet another pre-written answer to draw upon.  Today's effort for future use is fine.

I read it. They also needed visual proof of the resurrection, you disagree with that as well?
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2017, 05:46:12 AM »

I read it. They also needed visual proof of the resurrection, you disagree with that as well?

Unfortunately still special pleading and a nonsequitur due to full lack of context.

So, the apostles were told by the women in their company that discovered the empty tomb first that Christ was gone.   So historical context comes in play yet again and in this case Israelite women were not give the same consideration as that of men.  The words of women simply didn't hold the same weight that a man's words did.  Further the tomb was sealed and guarded by the Romans.   Guarded by some of the best experts in killing people in the known world.   Safe to say the tomb of Jesus was fairly secure.   Yet, the women witnessed the empty tomb and reported back to the apostles who then went to see for themselves.  If they (the apostles) lacked faith they lacked faith in the words and testimony of the women.   They wanted to ensure that the body was not stolen since it was guarded by Roman soldiers.  They had to make sure, but again we're talking about an unprecedented event that had never occurred before.   If I was ever blessed with a prophetic vision of God I would absolutely believe it, but when it came to pass if I didn't witness it firsthand I'd wanna go and confirm it for myself.  Is that a lack of faith in God?  No, I'm not required to have absolute faith in the testimony of others.  God tells us to seek him and test the truth of his word.

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.  
Report to moderator   Logged

Agnostic007
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6672



« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2017, 03:04:03 PM »

interesting watching a debate about a resurrection that is alleged to have happened 2000 years ago based on a collection of stories from a book, and using the words special pleading and nonsequitur. I almost spit out my coffee
Report to moderator   Logged
FREAKgeek
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 5503


« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2017, 04:35:33 AM »

Unfortunately still special pleading and a nonsequitur due to full lack of context.

So, the apostles were told by the women in their company that discovered the empty tomb first that Christ was gone.   So historical context comes in play yet again and in this case Israelite women were not give the same consideration as that of men.  The words of women simply didn't hold the same weight that a man's words did.  Further the tomb was sealed and guarded by the Romans.   Guarded by some of the best experts in killing people in the known world.   Safe to say the tomb of Jesus was fairly secure.   Yet, the women witnessed the empty tomb and reported back to the apostles who then went to see for themselves.  If they (the apostles) lacked faith they lacked faith in the words and testimony of the women.   They wanted to ensure that the body was not stolen since it was guarded by Roman soldiers.  They had to make sure, but again we're talking about an unprecedented event that had never occurred before.   If I was ever blessed with a prophetic vision of God I would absolutely believe it, but when it came to pass if I didn't witness it firsthand I'd wanna go and confirm it for myself.  Is that a lack of faith in God?  No, I'm not required to have absolute faith in the testimony of others.  God tells us to seek him and test the truth of his word.


lol, I didn't mean to suggest sexism or misogyny. (although there is plenty of that)


Let me help you:

To Peter (1 Cor. 15:5; cf. John 20:3-9)

First Corinthians 15:5 declares that Jesus “was seen of Cephas (Peter).” There is no narration of this event, but the text says he was seen (Gk. ophthe) and implies that he was heard as well. Certainly Peter was not speechless. Jesus definitely spoke with Peter in a later appearance when he asked Peter to feed his sheep (John 21:15, 16, 17). Mark confirms that Peter (and the disciples) would “see him, just as he told you” (Mark 16:7). Peter, of course saw the empty tomb and the grave clothes just before this appearance (John 20:6-7). So Peter experienced at least three evidences of the physical resurrection; he saw and heard Jesus, and he observed the empty tomb and grave clothes. These are definite pieces of evidence that the body that rose is the same, visible, tangible, material body he had before the resurrection.

On the Emmaus Road (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:13-35)

During this appearance three evidences of the physical resurrection were presented. They not only saw and heard Jesus but they also ate with Jesus. Combined they provide clear proof of the tangible, physical nature of the resurrection body.

There were two disciples, one of which was named Cleopas (vs. 18). As they were walking toward Emmaus, “Jesus himself came up and walked along with them” (vs. 16). At first they did not recognize who he was; they nevertheless clearly saw him. When they finally realized who it was, the text says “he disappeared out of their sight” (vs. 31). Jesus’ resurrection body was as visible as any other material object.

They heard Jesus with their physical ears (vss. 17,19, 25-26). In fact, Jesus carried on a lengthy conversation with them. For “beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself” (vs. 27). Of course, they were not the only ones Jesus taught after the resurrection. Luke informs us elsewhere that “he appeared to them [the apostles] over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3). During these times he “gave many convincing proofs that he was alive” (vs. 3).

They ate with him. Luke says, “when he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them” (vs. 30).

Although the text does not say specifically that Jesus also ate, it is implied by being “at table with them.” And later in the chapter it is explicitly stated that he ate with the ten apostles (vs. 43). In two other places Luke states that Jesus did eat with the disciples (Acts 1:4; 10:41). So on this appearance of Christ the eyewitnesses saw him, heard him, and ate with him over a considerable period of time one evening. It is difficult to image how Jesus could have done anything more to demonstrate the physical nature of the resurrection body.

To the Ten (Luke 24:36-49; John 20:19-23)

When Jesus appeared to ten disciples, Thomas being absent, he was seen, heard, touched, and they saw him eat fish. Thus four major evidences of the visible, physical nature of the resurrection body were present on this occasion.

“While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.”’ In fact, Jesus carried on a conversation with them also about how “everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (vs. 44). So Jesus was obviously heard by the disciples.

The disciples also saw Jesus on this occasion. In fact, they thought at first that he was a “spirit” (vs. 37). But Jesus “showed them his hands and his feet.” So they clearly saw him as well as heard him. In the parallel account, John records that “the disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord” (John 20:20; cf. vs. 25).

It may be inferred from the fact that they were at first unconvinced of his tangible materiality when Jesus presented his wounds to them that they touched him as well. In fact, Jesus clearly said to them, “Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have” (vs. 39). Jesus’ use of “I” and “me” in connection with his physical resurrection body expresses his claim that he is numerically identical with his pre-resurrection body. Jesus also “showed them his hands and feet,” confirming to his disciples that his resurrection body was the very same nail-scarred body of flesh and bones that was crucified.

On this occasion Jesus ate physical food to convince the disciples that he was resurrected in a literal, physical body. “They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence” (vs. 43). What makes this passage such a powerful proof is that Jesus offered his ability to eat physical food as a proof of the material nature of his body of flesh and bones. Jesus literally exhausted the ways in which he could prove the corporeal, material nature of his resurrection body. Thus, if Jesus’ resurrection body was not the same material body of flesh and bones in which he died, he was being deceptive.

To the Eleven (John 20:24-31)

Thomas was not present when Jesus appeared to his disciples (John 20:24). Even after his fellow apostles reported who they had seen, Jesus, Thomas refused to believe unless he could see and touch Christ for himself. A week later his wish was granted: “A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you!”’ (John 20:26). When Jesus appeared to Thomas he saw, heard, and touched the resurrected Lord.

Thomas saw the Lord. Jesus was clearly visible to Thomas who later said to him, “you have seen me” (vs. 29).

Thomas also heard the Lord say, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe” (vs. 27). To this unquestionably convincing display of physical evidence Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” (vs. 28).

It can be inferred that Thomas also touched the Lord. Certainly this is what Thomas said he wanted to do (vs. 25). And Jesus told him to (vs. 27). Although the text only says Thomas saw and believed (vs. 29), it is natural to infer that he also touched Jesus. Jesus was touched on at least two other occasions (John 20:9, 17). So it may very well be that Thomas also touched him on this occasion also. At any rate, Thomas certainly encountered a visible, physical resurrection body with his natural senses. Whether Thomas touched Christ, he certainly saw his crucifixion wounds (John 20:27-29). The fact that Jesus still had these physical wounds from his crucifixion is an unmistakable proof that he was resurrected in the material body in which he was crucified. This was the second time that Jesus exhibited his wounds. It is difficult to imagine that he could have offered greater proof that the resurrection body is the same body of flesh that was crucified and now glorified.

To the Seven Disciples (John 21)

John records Jesus’ appearance to the seven disciples who went fishing in Galilee. During this appearance the disciples saw Jesus, heard him, and ate breakfast with him.

The Bible says that “Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Tiberias” (John 21:1). Early in the morning they saw him standing on the shore (vs. 4). After he talked and ate with them, the text says, “this is now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead” (vs. 14).

The disciples also heard Jesus speak (vss. 5, 6, 10, 12). Jesus carried on an extended conversation with Peter in which he was asked three times whether he loved Jesus (vss. 15, 16, 17). Since Peter had denied Jesus three times, not only did Peter hear Jesus speak but Jesus’ words no doubt rang in his ears. Jesus also told Peter how he would die (vss. 18, 19).

Jesus apparently also ate with the disciples during this appearance. He asked them, “Friends, haven’t you any fish?” (vs. 5). After telling them where to catch some (vs. 6), Jesus told them to “Bring some of the fish you have just caught” (vs. 10). Then he said to the disciples, “Come and have breakfast” (vs. 12). As they did, “Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish” (vs. 13). Although the text does not explicitly state that Jesus ate, nevertheless, as host of the meal it would have been noteworthy had he not. It is safe to say that, in addition to seeing and hearing Jesus, the disciples shared a physical meal with him.

To Commission Apostles (Matt. 28:16-20; Mark 16:14-18)

The next appearance of Christ was at the Great Commission (Matt. 28:16-20). As Jesus commissioned them to disciple all nations, he was both seen and clearly heard by all the apostles.

The text says that the disciples went to Galilee where Jesus had told them to go (vs. 16). And “when they saw him, they worshiped him” (vs. 17). Mark adds that they were eating (Mark 16:14), although this version is in the questionably authentic final section of Mark. However, it was not simply what they saw but what they heard that left a lasting impression.

Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:18-19). The fact that this small band shortly became the world’s greatest missionary society is ample testimony for how powerfully what the apostles heard Jesus speak impressed them.

To Five Hundred (1 Cor. 15:6)

There is no narration of this appearance. It is simply noted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:6 where he says: “After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still alive.”

Since Jesus was seen on this occasion and since he left such a lasting impression on them, it can be assumed that they heard him speak. Why else would Paul imply their readiness to testify on behalf of the resurrection, saying in essence, “If you do not believe me, just go and ask them?”

Despite its brevity this one verse is a powerful testimony to the bodily resurrection of Christ. It has the ring of truth about it. Paul is writing in 55 or 56, only twenty-two or twenty-three years after the resurrection (33). Most of these eye witnesses were still alive. And Paul challenges his reader to check out what he is saying with this multitude of witness who saw and probably heard Christ after his resurrection.

To James (1 Cor. 15:7)

Jesus’ brothers were unbelievers before his resurrection. The Gospel of John informs us that “even his own brothers did not believe in him” (John 7:5). But after his resurrection at least James and Jude, the half-brothers of Jesus, became believers (cf. Mark 6:3). However, the Scriptures say explicitly that Jesus “appeared to James” (1 Cor. 15:7). No doubt Jesus also spoke to James. At least as a result of his experience James became a pillar of the early church and played a prominent part in the first church council (Acts 15:13).

James also wrote one of the books of the New Testament in which he spoke of “the crown of life” (James 1:12) and of the “Lord’s coming” (5:Cool which was made possible only through the resurrection of Christ (2 Tim 1:10). So whatever James saw or heard during this resurrection appearance of Christ not only converted him but made him into a prominent figure in the apostolic church.

At the Ascension (Acts 1:4-8)

Jesus’ last appearance before his ascension was again to all the apostles. During this time they saw him, heard him, and ate with him. These three lines of evidence are the final confirmation of the literal, material nature of his resurrection body.

Jesus was seen by his apostles on this occasion. Luke says, “after his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive” (Acts 1:3). He adds, Jesus “appeared to them over a period of forty days.”

They also heard Jesus, since on this occasion he “spoke about the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3). And during this specific appearance Jesus commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about” (vs. 4). So it was not only a familiar voice but a familiar teaching that confirmed that this was the Jesus who had taught them before the crucifixion.

Luke also says in this passage that Jesus ate with the disciples, as he had done on many occasions. For this last appearance before the ascension was “on one occasion, while he was eating with them” (Acts 1:4). This is the fourth recorded instance of Jesus eating after the resurrection. It was apparently something he did rather often, since even the short summary of his ministry by Peter in Acts 10 declares that the apostles “ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead” (vs. 41). Surely, both the intimate fellowship and the physical ability to eat food was more than sufficient proof that Jesus was appearing in the same tangible, physical body he possessed before his resurrection.


 

https://www.jashow.org/articles/guests-and-authors/dr-norman-geisler-2/evidence-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ-from-the-dead/#Direct_Evidence
 



Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19250


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2017, 05:32:11 AM »

lol, I didn't mean to suggest sexism or misogyny. (although there is plenty of that)


Let me help you:

To Peter (1 Cor. 15:5; cf. John 20:3-9)

First Corinthians 15:5 declares that Jesus “was seen of Cephas (Peter).” There is no narration of this event, but the text says he was seen (Gk. ophthe) and implies that he was heard as well. Certainly Peter was not speechless. Jesus definitely spoke with Peter in a later appearance when he asked Peter to feed his sheep (John 21:15, 16, 17). Mark confirms that Peter (and the disciples) would “see him, just as he told you” (Mark 16:7). Peter, of course saw the empty tomb and the grave clothes just before this appearance (John 20:6-7). So Peter experienced at least three evidences of the physical resurrection; he saw and heard Jesus, and he observed the empty tomb and grave clothes. These are definite pieces of evidence that the body that rose is the same, visible, tangible, material body he had before the resurrection.

On the Emmaus Road (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:13-35)

During this appearance three evidences of the physical resurrection were presented. They not only saw and heard Jesus but they also ate with Jesus. Combined they provide clear proof of the tangible, physical nature of the resurrection body.

There were two disciples, one of which was named Cleopas (vs. 18). As they were walking toward Emmaus, “Jesus himself came up and walked along with them” (vs. 16). At first they did not recognize who he was; they nevertheless clearly saw him. When they finally realized who it was, the text says “he disappeared out of their sight” (vs. 31). Jesus’ resurrection body was as visible as any other material object.

They heard Jesus with their physical ears (vss. 17,19, 25-26). In fact, Jesus carried on a lengthy conversation with them. For “beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself” (vs. 27). Of course, they were not the only ones Jesus taught after the resurrection. Luke informs us elsewhere that “he appeared to them [the apostles] over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3). During these times he “gave many convincing proofs that he was alive” (vs. 3).

They ate with him. Luke says, “when he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them” (vs. 30).

Although the text does not say specifically that Jesus also ate, it is implied by being “at table with them.” And later in the chapter it is explicitly stated that he ate with the ten apostles (vs. 43). In two other places Luke states that Jesus did eat with the disciples (Acts 1:4; 10:41). So on this appearance of Christ the eyewitnesses saw him, heard him, and ate with him over a considerable period of time one evening. It is difficult to image how Jesus could have done anything more to demonstrate the physical nature of the resurrection body.

To the Ten (Luke 24:36-49; John 20:19-23)

When Jesus appeared to ten disciples, Thomas being absent, he was seen, heard, touched, and they saw him eat fish. Thus four major evidences of the visible, physical nature of the resurrection body were present on this occasion.

“While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.”’ In fact, Jesus carried on a conversation with them also about how “everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (vs. 44). So Jesus was obviously heard by the disciples.

The disciples also saw Jesus on this occasion. In fact, they thought at first that he was a “spirit” (vs. 37). But Jesus “showed them his hands and his feet.” So they clearly saw him as well as heard him. In the parallel account, John records that “the disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord” (John 20:20; cf. vs. 25).

It may be inferred from the fact that they were at first unconvinced of his tangible materiality when Jesus presented his wounds to them that they touched him as well. In fact, Jesus clearly said to them, “Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have” (vs. 39). Jesus’ use of “I” and “me” in connection with his physical resurrection body expresses his claim that he is numerically identical with his pre-resurrection body. Jesus also “showed them his hands and feet,” confirming to his disciples that his resurrection body was the very same nail-scarred body of flesh and bones that was crucified.

On this occasion Jesus ate physical food to convince the disciples that he was resurrected in a literal, physical body. “They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence” (vs. 43). What makes this passage such a powerful proof is that Jesus offered his ability to eat physical food as a proof of the material nature of his body of flesh and bones. Jesus literally exhausted the ways in which he could prove the corporeal, material nature of his resurrection body. Thus, if Jesus’ resurrection body was not the same material body of flesh and bones in which he died, he was being deceptive.

To the Eleven (John 20:24-31)

Thomas was not present when Jesus appeared to his disciples (John 20:24). Even after his fellow apostles reported who they had seen, Jesus, Thomas refused to believe unless he could see and touch Christ for himself. A week later his wish was granted: “A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you!”’ (John 20:26). When Jesus appeared to Thomas he saw, heard, and touched the resurrected Lord.

Thomas saw the Lord. Jesus was clearly visible to Thomas who later said to him, “you have seen me” (vs. 29).

Thomas also heard the Lord say, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe” (vs. 27). To this unquestionably convincing display of physical evidence Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” (vs. 28).

It can be inferred that Thomas also touched the Lord. Certainly this is what Thomas said he wanted to do (vs. 25). And Jesus told him to (vs. 27). Although the text only says Thomas saw and believed (vs. 29), it is natural to infer that he also touched Jesus. Jesus was touched on at least two other occasions (John 20:9, 17). So it may very well be that Thomas also touched him on this occasion also. At any rate, Thomas certainly encountered a visible, physical resurrection body with his natural senses. Whether Thomas touched Christ, he certainly saw his crucifixion wounds (John 20:27-29). The fact that Jesus still had these physical wounds from his crucifixion is an unmistakable proof that he was resurrected in the material body in which he was crucified. This was the second time that Jesus exhibited his wounds. It is difficult to imagine that he could have offered greater proof that the resurrection body is the same body of flesh that was crucified and now glorified.

To the Seven Disciples (John 21)

John records Jesus’ appearance to the seven disciples who went fishing in Galilee. During this appearance the disciples saw Jesus, heard him, and ate breakfast with him.

The Bible says that “Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Tiberias” (John 21:1). Early in the morning they saw him standing on the shore (vs. 4). After he talked and ate with them, the text says, “this is now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead” (vs. 14).

The disciples also heard Jesus speak (vss. 5, 6, 10, 12). Jesus carried on an extended conversation with Peter in which he was asked three times whether he loved Jesus (vss. 15, 16, 17). Since Peter had denied Jesus three times, not only did Peter hear Jesus speak but Jesus’ words no doubt rang in his ears. Jesus also told Peter how he would die (vss. 18, 19).

Jesus apparently also ate with the disciples during this appearance. He asked them, “Friends, haven’t you any fish?” (vs. 5). After telling them where to catch some (vs. 6), Jesus told them to “Bring some of the fish you have just caught” (vs. 10). Then he said to the disciples, “Come and have breakfast” (vs. 12). As they did, “Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish” (vs. 13). Although the text does not explicitly state that Jesus ate, nevertheless, as host of the meal it would have been noteworthy had he not. It is safe to say that, in addition to seeing and hearing Jesus, the disciples shared a physical meal with him.

To Commission Apostles (Matt. 28:16-20; Mark 16:14-18)

The next appearance of Christ was at the Great Commission (Matt. 28:16-20). As Jesus commissioned them to disciple all nations, he was both seen and clearly heard by all the apostles.

The text says that the disciples went to Galilee where Jesus had told them to go (vs. 16). And “when they saw him, they worshiped him” (vs. 17). Mark adds that they were eating (Mark 16:14), although this version is in the questionably authentic final section of Mark. However, it was not simply what they saw but what they heard that left a lasting impression.

Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:18-19). The fact that this small band shortly became the world’s greatest missionary society is ample testimony for how powerfully what the apostles heard Jesus speak impressed them.

To Five Hundred (1 Cor. 15:6)

There is no narration of this appearance. It is simply noted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:6 where he says: “After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still alive.”

Since Jesus was seen on this occasion and since he left such a lasting impression on them, it can be assumed that they heard him speak. Why else would Paul imply their readiness to testify on behalf of the resurrection, saying in essence, “If you do not believe me, just go and ask them?”

Despite its brevity this one verse is a powerful testimony to the bodily resurrection of Christ. It has the ring of truth about it. Paul is writing in 55 or 56, only twenty-two or twenty-three years after the resurrection (33). Most of these eye witnesses were still alive. And Paul challenges his reader to check out what he is saying with this multitude of witness who saw and probably heard Christ after his resurrection.

To James (1 Cor. 15:7)

Jesus’ brothers were unbelievers before his resurrection. The Gospel of John informs us that “even his own brothers did not believe in him” (John 7:5). But after his resurrection at least James and Jude, the half-brothers of Jesus, became believers (cf. Mark 6:3). However, the Scriptures say explicitly that Jesus “appeared to James” (1 Cor. 15:7). No doubt Jesus also spoke to James. At least as a result of his experience James became a pillar of the early church and played a prominent part in the first church council (Acts 15:13).

James also wrote one of the books of the New Testament in which he spoke of “the crown of life” (James 1:12) and of the “Lord’s coming” (5:Cool which was made possible only through the resurrection of Christ (2 Tim 1:10). So whatever James saw or heard during this resurrection appearance of Christ not only converted him but made him into a prominent figure in the apostolic church.

At the Ascension (Acts 1:4-8)

Jesus’ last appearance before his ascension was again to all the apostles. During this time they saw him, heard him, and ate with him. These three lines of evidence are the final confirmation of the literal, material nature of his resurrection body.

Jesus was seen by his apostles on this occasion. Luke says, “after his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive” (Acts 1:3). He adds, Jesus “appeared to them over a period of forty days.”

They also heard Jesus, since on this occasion he “spoke about the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3). And during this specific appearance Jesus commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about” (vs. 4). So it was not only a familiar voice but a familiar teaching that confirmed that this was the Jesus who had taught them before the crucifixion.

Luke also says in this passage that Jesus ate with the disciples, as he had done on many occasions. For this last appearance before the ascension was “on one occasion, while he was eating with them” (Acts 1:4). This is the fourth recorded instance of Jesus eating after the resurrection. It was apparently something he did rather often, since even the short summary of his ministry by Peter in Acts 10 declares that the apostles “ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead” (vs. 41). Surely, both the intimate fellowship and the physical ability to eat food was more than sufficient proof that Jesus was appearing in the same tangible, physical body he possessed before his resurrection.


 

https://www.jashow.org/articles/guests-and-authors/dr-norman-geisler-2/evidence-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ-from-the-dead/#Direct_Evidence
 

I've read Geisler's commentary, read his book on Islam, watched him debate, watched him preach....I've read many other books and commentaries from other authors/theologians.

So please forgive me, but what exactly is your point with the copy and paste?  What did you learn from the commentary?  Ready to give your life to Christ?

Or is this your support for hardened hearts and lack of faith of the apostles?  Or are you changing topics?

With your comment on sexism are you now changing topics in that direction?  I'm fully prepared to speak to that topic if you prefer.  

I assume with this you're redirecting and raising the standard God and his believers are "lying, sexist, hypocritical bigots" argument?   Women submitting to men, women being the helpers to men, women being lead by men, not speaking aloud in church, not being leaders in a church, OT instances of polygamy and men having concubines?  Or is it something else?  
Report to moderator   Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Theme created by Egad Community. Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!