A320neo VS 737 MAX

[Palumboism]

Peter Thiel recently made a comment that aerospace innovation has stalled because airplanes haven't changed much since the launch of the 747 back in 1969.  I believe most people would erroneously agree with this statement because they don't understand the kind of innovation the industry wants.  Case in point, the A320neo and the 737 MAX.  These aircraft typify the kind of innovation the customers want.  To say these aircraft are a hit is an understatement.  Their order backlogs are staggering.




A320neo family orders 5,053

737 MAX family orders 3,699

When these aircraft are delivered they will transport more than six million people per day.

[Palumboism]

Steven Hazy has probably had more affect on the airline industry than anyone else alive today and most people have never heard of him.

Steve saw in the 60's how airlines were having difficulties affording newly introduced jets which were significantly more expensive than prop aircraft.  With this insight he invented the industry of leasing aircraft to airlines.  Today leased aircraft account for almost half of all commercial airplanes flown.  As a senior at UCLA Steve brokered his first deal, a sale of a turboprop from Air New Zealand to Aleutian Airlines.

He convinced Airbus to develop the A350 and A330neo and Boeing to develop the 787-10.  His leasing company has ordered more aircraft from both companies than any airline.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/business/10flyboy.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all

[Palumboism]

First 737 (shown below) entered service with Lufthansa in February 1968.

Before Boeing lunched the 707 they were a distant third behind McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed.  The 707 changed everything and they followed it up with three hits, the 727, 737, and 747. 

[SF1900]

Palumboism, serious question:

Why such a strong interest in airlines?

[The_Punisher]

Peter Thiel recently made a comment that aerospace innovation has stalled because airplanes haven't changed much since the launch of the 747 back in 1969.  I believe most people would erroneously agree with this statement because they don't understand the kind of innovation the industry wants.  Case in point, the A320neo and the 737 MAX.  These aircraft typify the kind of innovation the customers want.  To say these aircraft are a hit is an understatement.  Their order backlogs are staggering.




A320neo family orders 5,053

737 MAX family orders 3,699

When these aircraft are delivered they will transport more than six million people per day.

I love me some Boeing, but the Neo is kicking some serious ass.....I have flown on these A320s, not neo,...they seem to have more leg rooms than the typical 737s.... the Neo has longer range than the 737 Max, at least that's what airbus claimed.....they said Neo should have a range of 3700 nautical miles on a Pratt & Whitney PW1100G engines.....but 737Max said they will match or exceed Neo's range claims.....based on orders so far, it seems that Airbus, somehow, is convincing customers to buy their Neos......either way, they're both two beautiful Birds

[JPM123]

I haven't flown commercial since 1986. I took my G5 to rehab.

[Palumboism]

Palumboism, serious question:

Why such a strong interest in airlines?

I've worked at four aircraft companies and have launched thee aircraft.    I'm interested in all aspects of the industry, but airlines are the only way most people come into contact with airplanes.

This is actually a time of great change in the aerospace industry.  Replacing aluminum with composites is drastically changing the design of aircraft.  Think 787, A350, 777X.  

The engine manufacturers are making significant improvements in engines.  The NEO and MAX are basically the same airplanes with new engines, but the engines are so improved that the whole plane is better.  

[Palumboism]

I love me some Boeing, but the Neo is kicking some serious ass.....I have flown on these A320s, not neo,...they seem to have more leg rooms than the typical 737s.... the Neo has longer range than the 737 Max, at least that's what airbus claimed.....they said Neo should have a range of 3700 nautical miles on a Pratt & Whitney PW1100G engines.....but 737Max said they will match or exceed Neo's range claims.....based on orders so far, it seems that Airbus, somehow, is convincing customers to buy their Neos......either way, they're both two beautiful Birds

Airbus gets the orders by offering a more attractive price. 


Skip to the 4:20 mark where Phil Scruggs (CEO AerCap)explains why he ordered 200 A320neo's and no 737 MAX.

[The_Punisher]

Airbus gets the orders by offering a more attractive price. 


Skip to the 4:20 mark where Phil Scruggs (CEO AerCap)explains why he ordered 200 A320neo's and no 737 MAX.

hahahah....I think that's a smart business move from airbus.....as far as US customers are concerned, I'm sure Delta, JetBlue, AA will be getting their Neos soon enough in these terminals......I heard South West already ordered 5 dozen or so MAXes

[jwb]

What plane is gonna replace the 757 they seem to be hanging on to until they are ancient?

[Palumboism]

What plane is gonna replace the 757 they seem to be hanging on to until they are ancient?

Good question.  The 757 and 767 are what is referred to as the middle of middle of the market or "MOM".  Currently Boeing has no replacement for these aircraft and the A321 is a much better replacement for the 757 than the 737-9.  Boeing is in the early planning phases of an aircraft for the middle of the market to be called 797.  The 797 will have about 240 seats and a range of 5000nm.  Also, expect both the fuselage and wings to be carbon fiber.  Airbus has said they will wait to see what the Boeing does with the 797 and then improve upon it like they did with the A350.  

Regarding the engines on the 797, GE's David Joyce said "Should Boeing choose multiple suppliers, we’re out,” adding that his company still carries “scars” from being one of three engine providers on the Airbus A330 plane 20 years ago.  

I expect the GE engine will be the only engine offered.

The 797 is important because it will foretell the future of all commercial airplanes from both Boeing and Airbus.

[Palumboism]

hahahah....I think that's a smart business move from airbus.....as far as US customers are concerned, I'm sure Delta, JetBlue, AA will be getting their Neos soon enough in these terminals......I heard South West already ordered 5 dozen or so MAXes

Largest 737 MAX orders:
Lion Air, 201   
Southwest Airlines, 200   
GECAS, 170   
SpiceJet, 142   
Air Lease, 118   
Norwegian, 108   



Largest A320neo orders:
IndiGo, 430      
AirAsia, 404      
AerCap, 211   
Lion Air, 178      
GoAir, 144      


Frontier was the first American Airline to receive an A320neo.

      

[Palumboism]

hahahah....I think that's a smart business move from airbus.....as far as US customers are concerned, I'm sure Delta

If you want to know how to buy airplanes cheap, follow whatever Delta does.  They know how to get the best deals.  That includes not ordering any new airplanes with fancy new engines.  No thank you, I'll buy the old discontinued model on sale.  Delta doesn't have a single NEO or MAX on order.  

Delt's current aircraft on order:
Bombardier CS100, 75
Airbus A350-900, 25
Airbus A330-900neo, 25
Airbus A321-200, 100
Boeing 737-900ER, 51

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet

[RJ DRIVER]

Not to mention delta picked up several 777's a few years ago for under 10
Million a piece. Slightly used of course. I think it was around 7 million. Delta
is always leading the industry in their practices.

[Palumboism]

I love me some Boeing, but the Neo is kicking some serious ass.....I have flown on these A320s, not neo,...they seem to have more leg rooms than the typical 737s.... the Neo has longer range than the 737 Max, at least that's what airbus claimed.....they said Neo should have a range of 3700 nautical miles on a Pratt & Whitney PW1100G engines.....but 737Max said they will match or exceed Neo's range claims.....based on orders so far, it seems that Airbus, somehow, is convincing customers to buy their Neos......either way, they're both two beautiful Birds

The 737 historically has been more reliable and fuel efficient than the A320.  In addition, Boeing is more responsive with spare parts and because of all this Boeing usually charges a premium.  I actually prefer the A320 as a passenger because it feels more modern.  Neither company produces an airplane that's not good, now that the A340 has been discontinued.  I'm sorry, but the A340 was a flop.

[Palumboism]

Not to mention delta picked up several 777's a few years ago for under 10
Million a piece. Slightly used of course. I think it was around 7 million. Delta
is always leading the industry in their practices.

Delta Air Lines CEO Richard Anderson said Wednesday that wide-body models coming off leases are creating an “aircraft bubble,” offering his airline opportunities to acquire used 777s or A330s on the cheap.

A glut of wide-body models coming off leases is creating an “aircraft bubble,” Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson said Wednesday.
“The aircraft market is going to be ripe for Delta over the course of the next 12 to 36 months,” Anderson said on a conference call after the airline’s third-quarter earnings report. “Prices are going to get lower.”

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-shares-fall-as-delta-ceo-predicts-glut-of-wide-body-jets/

One hundred percent agree.  If you wanted to buy a wide-body recently the best choice is a used 777 or A330 coming off lease.  Delta is by far the best run airline of the big three domestics

[The_Punisher]

If you want to know how to buy airplanes cheap, follow whatever Delta does.  They know how to get the best deals.  That includes not ordering any new airplanes with fancy new engines.  No thank you, I'll buy the old discontinued model on sale.  Delta doesn't have a single NEO or MAX on order.  

Delt's current aircraft on order:
Bombardier CS100, 75
Airbus A350-900, 25
Airbus A330-900neo, 25
Airbus A321-200, 100
Boeing 737-900ER, 51

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet

hahahaha....Delta is getting a Bang for their Buck....they said Delta planned on getting Rid of their aging 747 fleet....I'm sure they will convert them to cargo or sell them

[Palumboism]

hahahaha....Delta is getting a Bang for their Buck....they said Delta planned on getting Rid of their aging 747 fleet....I'm sure they will convert them to cargo or sell them

Delta still flies (116) MD-88, (65) MD-90, and (91) 717.  These are airplanes derived from the DC-9, which first flew in 1965.  The MD-88's are twenty-nine years old!.  Cycles (one takeoff and landing) are what count regarding aircraft age and you can keep an aircraft running for very a long time (see third world counties), but usually after thirty years the "C" checks become prohibitively expensive and so do the repairs and corrosion they discover.  

The aircraft in Aloha Airlines flight 243 accident was a (737-200) that had 89,000 cycles (the most in their fleet) with 19 years of service. The 737-200 was designed for 75,000 cycles but inspections and repairs can keep aicraft fuselages flying indefinitely.

[tres_taco_combo]

I am excited for the NEW 737

cant wait to they do a 737 max BBJ ! 

[jwb]

If you want to know how to buy airplanes cheap, follow whatever Delta does.  They know how to get the best deals.  That includes not ordering any new airplanes with fancy new engines.  No thank you, I'll buy the old discontinued model on sale.  Delta doesn't have a single NEO or MAX on order.  

Delt's current aircraft on order:
Bombardier CS100, 75
Airbus A350-900, 25
Airbus A330-900neo, 25
Airbus A321-200, 100
Boeing 737-900ER, 51

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet

i live in Hawaii and flew delta lax to Honolulu recently. Great cabin crew but OLD 757 that decided to start vibrating rather weirdly half way across. I asked if they could ask the captain what the problem was and was told they were having trouble getting the engines to run at the same rpm or something to that effect thus there was a harmonic imbalance and bad vibrations.

[Sokolsky]

This was a plane

man is it a shame they fell thru.

[Palumboism]

This was a plane.  man is it a shame they fell thru.

The Concord is a perfect example of the general public's lack of understanding of the type of innovation commercial aviation needs.  It was a monumental flop and probably one of the biggest financial failures in aviation history.  The most important thing when designing an aircraft or any product is understanding what the customer wants and needs.  

This short, fat, stumpy little aircraft is what genuine commercial aviation innovation looks like.  It may not be pretty, but it's exactly what the customer wants and has sold 9,522 units, as opposed to only 20 for the Concord.

[OLKE_TEXAS]

Lots of couch pilots in this thread.

[The_Punisher]

Lots of couch pilots in this thread.

shut the fuck up, I have an ATP

[The_Punisher]

Delta still flies (116) MD-88, (65) MD-90, and (91) 717.  These are airplanes derived from the DC-9, which first flew in 1965.  The MD-88's are twenty-nine years old!.  Cycles (one takeoff and landing) are what count regarding aircraft age and you can keep an aircraft running for very a long time (see third world counties), but usually after thirty years the "C" checks become prohibitively expensive and so do the repairs and corrosion they discover.  

The aircraft in Aloha Airlines flight 243 accident was a (737-200) that had 89,000 cycles (the most in their fleet) with 19 years of service. The 737-200 was designed for 75,000 cycles but inspections and repairs can keep aicraft fuselages flying indefinitely.

this incident was a testament of how strong they built these 737s....only one fatality from this incident... one flight attendant was sucked out of the plane and she was never found