Left-Wing Agitators Call For Escalated Tactics In Response To Charlottesville

[TuHolmes]

Yes, Tu.  I'll admit that IMO you don't seem the type to do that.

And I'd bet most of the ones who were doing that, couldn't get on a message board to discuss something if their life depended on it.  They wouldn't know the first thing about it and probably wouldn't care.

That's probably true.

Now I have to ask then, on a slightly tangential subject, if a city council or government, decides to remove something like a statue of a confederate general due to stigma, is that within their right as well?

Who makes the determination that it's ok to do so? Where does that come up? Is it something that should be voted on? Where does the ultimate decision stem from? Who can make it?

[Las Vegas]

That's probably true.

Now I have to ask then, on a slightly tangential subject, if a city council or government, decides to remove something like a statue of a confederate general due to stigma, is that within their right as well?

Who makes the determination that it's ok to do so? Where does that come up? Is it something that should be voted on? Where does the ultimate decision stem from? Who can make it?

I hate to admit, but the whole riot thing caught me by surprise and I'd only learned a couple days ago about the alleged origins of it.

Not sure whose land it was on (the statue) but I hope there was notice given about the plan, and a place and time given for concerned citizens to express themselves about it.  And in cases like that, the individuals pressing for something like a statue-removal should be made to get up and state the case like everyone else.  Don't hide behind "it's a city government decision" or it's a "recreation dept decision" or some bullshit like that.

Obviously, someone or someones had strong feelings about it, so let those individuals tell the public about their reasoning, and let them be challenged on it in full view.

[Dos Equis]

Because it's oversimplification.

I mean, let's be real here. There is no dictatorial leader, they certainly are not exalting the nation above all other, nor the race.

You are highlighting one piece, but surely you can highlight other pieces.


exalts nation and often race above the individual - That's not the liberals here.

That's why I'm saying it's more complex than what the dictionary definition is. If we go by that, then both sides are fascists and at the same time, neither side is.

It might be an oversimplification, but I previously looked at the wiki page you referenced and that is overly complicated. 

My overall point in creating the thread was to highlight how liberals use threats, intimidation, and violence to silence opposing viewpoints.  I don't have a problem calling that fascism. 

The concern I have on the heels of this Charlottesville matter is the only person talking about the left's violence is Trump, and he's being vilified for it.  The end result will probably be emboldening these people to not only continue their tactics, but escalate them. 

[TuHolmes]

I hate to admit, but the whole riot thing caught me by surprise and I'd only learned a couple days ago about the alleged origins of it.

Not sure whose land it was on (the statue) but I hope there was notice given about the plan, and a place and time given for concerned citizens to express themselves about it.  And in cases like that, the individuals pressing for something like a statue-removal should be made to get up and state the case like everyone else.  Don't hide behind "it's a city government decision" or it's a "recreation dept decision" or some bullshit like that.

Obviously, someone or someones had strong feelings about it, so let those individuals tell the public about their reasoning, and let them be challenged on it in full view.

True points on all fronts.

I still find it odd that we would have statues of people who fought against the USA in the USA itself. Just seems weird to me.

It's not like we have statues of Hitler, Hirohito, or Santa Anna hanging around do we?

[Las Vegas]

True points on all fronts.

I still find it odd that we would have statues of people who fought against the USA in the USA itself. Just seems weird to me.

It's not like we have statues of Hitler, Hirohito, or Santa Anna hanging around do we?

You probably know more about the CW than I do (no doubt about that), so what makes you say this?  Is it conceivable that the South could make the same claim against the North, as far as which of them was fighting for the rightful meaning of this nation?

[TuHolmes]

You probably know more about the CW than I do (no doubt about that), so what makes you say this?  Is it conceivable that the South could make the same claim against the North, as far as which of them was fighting for the rightful meaning of this nation?

The southern states  (at the time, because today, no southern state really can say they are all for states rights in the same capacity or they will give back their welfare money and their military budgets) will surely and rightfully have a point in saying that they were the ones who valued the constitution, and to be completely fair, they would have a valid point, however, they couldn't fight the machine that was the north in the long run and they lost.

That's how it goes right?

Victors write history. It's not fair, but it is what happens.

We can split out right vs. wrong or cause vs. effect, but ultimately, it's about winner vs. loser.

The CSA happened to lose, and with that, they are forced to submit to the will of the USA as the victor.

[Las Vegas]

It might be an oversimplification, but I previously looked at the wiki page you referenced and that is overly complicated. 

My overall point in creating the thread was to highlight how liberals use threats, intimidation, and violence to silence opposing viewpoints.  I don't have a problem calling that fascism. 

The concern I have on the heels of this Charlottesville matter is the only person talking about the left's violence is Trump, and he's being vilified for it.  The end result will probably be emboldening these people to not only continue their tactics, but escalate them. 

Oh, no question about it.  Absolutely it is going to do that.  It will ramp up with an all-new sense of "justification" brought on by the "logical" assessments of MSM.

I'm telling you, this thing has become dangerous.  Trump needs to fix this Lie Machine and its broken muffler as a top priority, or he might as well hang it up now.  One way or another, he is absolutely NOT credible unless he fixes it.  And he deserves all the bad things coming his way as a result of leaving it unfixed.

[TuHolmes]

It might be an oversimplification, but I previously looked at the wiki page you referenced and that is overly complicated. 

My overall point in creating the thread was to highlight how liberals use threats, intimidation, and violence to silence opposing viewpoints.  I don't have a problem calling that fascism. 

The concern I have on the heels of this Charlottesville matter is the only person talking about the left's violence is Trump, and he's being vilified for it.  The end result will probably be emboldening these people to not only continue their tactics, but escalate them. 

It is complicated. That's the point I'm making I guess.

There are obvious parts of both the left and the right that appear to be fascist. The KKK and Nazis have for many years used threats, intimidation, and violence to silence opposing viewpoints as well.

I'm not disagreeing that two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, using any of those things is bad and are traits of fascism, but neither side holds the reigns of doing them and neither side is perfectly fascist at this point.

It is a complicated issue that I don't think is accurately depicted in a few sentences.

Hell, I can find things like the political spectrum for information and there is crap all over the place.

Ultimately, I don't understand how hard it is to treat everyone with dignity and equality across the board. My brain just doesn't get it.

[Las Vegas]

The southern states  (at the time, because today, no southern state really can say they are all for states rights in the same capacity or they will give back their welfare money and their military budgets) will surely and rightfully have a point in saying that they were the ones who valued the constitution, and to be completely fair, they would have a valid point, however, they couldn't fight the machine that was the north in the long run and they lost.

That's how it goes right?

Victors write history. It's not fair, but it is what happens.

We can split out right vs. wrong or cause vs. effect, but ultimately, it's about winner vs. loser.

The CSA happened to lose, and with that, they are forced to submit to the will of the USA as the victor.

But isn't this a good reason people might give, for appreciating and respecting that statue?  And no one can deny our history.

[Dos Equis]

Oh, no question about it.  Absolutely it is going to do that.  It will ramp up with an all-new sense of "justification" brought on by the "logical" assessments of MSM.

I'm telling you, this thing has become dangerous.  Trump needs to fix this Lie Machine and its broken muffler as a top priority, or he might as well hang it up now.  One way or another, he is absolutely NOT credible unless he fixes it.  And he deserves all the bad things coming his way as a result of leaving it unfixed.

I agree, although I'm not sure Trump can fix this.  But I do give him credit for taking on the establishment and punching them in the mouth.  

[TuHolmes]

But isn't this a good reason people might give, for appreciating and respecting that statue?  And no one can deny our history.

Not when you lose the war to be honest.

How can you revere a statue on one side that depicts a treasonous act (according to the US) and then on the other side call yourself a lover of the US and hold a US flag?


I just found this btw. This is a timeline depiction of exactly when confederate statues were erected.

Things are a lot different now in the US and the world at large.

[Dos Equis]

It is complicated. That's the point I'm making I guess.

There are obvious parts of both the left and the right that appear to be fascist. The KKK and Nazis have for many years used threats, intimidation, and violence to silence opposing viewpoints as well.

I'm not disagreeing that two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, using any of those things is bad and are traits of fascism, but neither side holds the reigns of doing them and neither side is perfectly fascist at this point.

It is a complicated issue that I don't think is accurately depicted in a few sentences.

Hell, I can find things like the political spectrum for information and there is crap all over the place.

Ultimately, I don't understand how hard it is to treat everyone with dignity and equality across the board. My brain just doesn't get it.

People often say both sides are bad.  I've said that a number of times.  I don't believe they are equivalent anymore.  Look at what has happened since the election.  When have conservatives tried to convince electors not to follow the results of the election?  How often do you see college Republicans rioting and trying to prevent liberal speakers from being heard?  Even when Trump was running, a number of protesters tried to block traffic to keep people from being able to hear him speak.  In this vein, we're talking about people left of center.  They pose a threat to our democracy IMO.  

[TuHolmes]

People often say both sides are bad.  I've said that a number of times.  I don't believe they are equivalent anymore.  Look at what has happened since the election.  When have conservatives tried to convince electors not to follow the results of the election?  How often do you see college Republicans rioting and trying to prevent liberal speakers from being heard?  Even when Trump was running, a number of protesters tried to block traffic to keep people from being able to hear him speak.  In this vein, we're talking about people left of center.  They pose a threat to our democracy IMO.  

They may, and I mean this, pose a threat, but they are not doing something that hasn't been done by people such as the KKK and other groups in the past. They blocked people from voting and a host of other things.

I think our democracy will survive as it always has because I believe that most of these people on both sides are squeaky wheels. They do not represent a majority of anyone.

Have liberal speakers been blocked? Honestly couldn't tell you. I haven't heard of any, but that doesn't mean I know of every single thing going on around the country at every moment. On the surface of the question, I would say no, conservatives have not blocked liberals recently.

[Dos Equis]

They may, and I mean this, pose a threat, but they are not doing something that hasn't been done by people such as the KKK and other groups in the past. They blocked people from voting and a host of other things.

I think our democracy will survive as it always has because I believe that most of these people on both sides are squeaky wheels. They do not represent a majority of anyone.

Have liberal speakers been blocked? Honestly couldn't tell you. I haven't heard of any, but that doesn't mean I know of every single thing going on around the country at every moment. On the surface of the question, I would say no, conservatives have not blocked liberals recently.

It's true the KKK did what fascist liberals are doing today, and much worse, but that was decades ago.  That is not today's KKK.  Today's KKK is impotent and irrelevant.  They are not a part of the two-party system and don't have the support of the MSM.  But liberals?  They are part of the Democrat Party and the MSM gives the violent ones cover, repeatedly.  Did you see the clip I posted of the woman shoving her two middle fingers in the face of some racist idiot?  That's the kind of aggressive behavior Trump was talking about, the MSM refuses to highlight. 

If we're talking about what is happening today, it's old and unfortunately young members of the Democrat Party who are trying to silence opposing viewpoints, by any means necessary. 

[Las Vegas]

I agree, although I'm not sure Trump can fix this.  But I do give him credit for taking on the establishment and punching them in the mouth. 

Really, I think he's the only one with a chance to make an effective effort.  Anyone else can be silenced and scattered by the noise in this MSM, except him.  No one else has a chance to speak to so many, and to explain to so many, without being drowned out.

Because, of course, the thing which now passes for a "free press" is something which works against that idea, and so much so that it must require an extraordinary voice to climb outside of it to talk to us.  Other than him, I don't know who could do that.

We need new entities to investigate all claims of the standing MSM, done in the form of new media, and all the more of it is all the better.

[Dos Equis]

Really, I think he's the only one with a chance to make an effective effort.  Anyone else can be silenced and scattered by the noise in this MSM, except him.  No one else has a chance to speak to so many, and to explain to so many, without being drowned out.

Because, of course, the thing which now passes for a "free press" is something which works against that idea, and so much so that it must require an extraordinary voice to climb outside of it to talk to us.  Other than him, I don't know who could do that.

We need new entities to investigate all claims of the standing MSM, done in the form of new media, and all the more of it is all the better.

I agree.  I'm just not all that optimistic he can do it, particularly on those occasions when he acts like an undisciplined idiot. 

[Las Vegas]

Not when you lose the war to be honest.

How can you revere a statue on one side that depicts a treasonous act (according to the US) and then on the other side call yourself a lover of the US and hold a US flag?


I just found this btw. This is a timeline depiction of exactly when confederate statues were erected.

Things are a lot different now in the US and the world at large.

But you're not saying that dissenting voices against the claimed "official" ones, period, are to be lost.  Are you?  Doesn't that in itself go against what we know to be true about America?  

To say nothing of the fact it can't be done, no matter how much some would like to see it happen.

[TuHolmes]

It's true the KKK did what fascist liberals are doing today, and much worse, but that was decades ago.  That is not today's KKK.  Today's KKK is impotent and irrelevant.  They are not a part of the two-party system and don't have the support of the MSM.  But liberals?  They are part of the Democrat Party and the MSM gives the violent ones cover, repeatedly.  Did you see the clip I posted of the woman shoving her two middle fingers in the face of some racist idiot?  That's the kind of aggressive behavior Trump was talking about, the MSM refuses to highlight. 

If we're talking about what is happening today, it's old and unfortunately young members of the Democrat Party who are trying to silence opposing viewpoints, by any means necessary. 

Do you not believe that the KKK is not voting against things that the Democratic party are voting for?

Do you believe they didn't vote in 2016?

Yes, today the young members are trying to silence opposing viewpoints and that is wrong. No one should be silenced for speaking their mind, no matter how disgusting it may be.

[Dos Equis]

Do you not believe that the KKK is not voting against things that the Democratic party are voting for?

Do you believe they didn't vote in 2016?

Yes, today the young members are trying to silence opposing viewpoints and that is wrong. No one should be silenced for speaking their mind, no matter how disgusting it may be.

I'm sure some of them voted.  I'm also fairly certain they had zero impact on the election.  They are as relevant to politics as the Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity. 

[Las Vegas]

I agree.  I'm just not all that optimistic he can do it, particularly on those occasions when he acts like an undisciplined idiot. 

Oh, I know.  Believe me.  And he probably wakes each day hoping he won't get broadsided with something from his past, which causes him to tread very lightly and avoid all sudden but meaningful moves.

Lucky us.  

[Las Vegas]

DNC worked to dynamite Bernie Sanders and he turned out to be too much a weakling to fight them.

And I don't give a damn about his personal feelings on the subject.  He owed his followers a good fight, and he failed to deliver.

[Dos Equis]

Oh, I know.  Believe me.  And he probably wakes each day hoping he won't get broadsided with something from his past, which causes him to tread very lightly and avoid all sudden but meaningful moves.

Lucky us.  

Sad but true.  

[TuHolmes]

I'm sure some of them voted.  I'm also fairly certain they had zero impact on the election.  They are as relevant to politics as the Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity. 

Some of the states were pretty close. We know there are about 915 hate groups in the US according to data, so if they can dictate just a few very close states, which there were a few right? Could they have made enough of an impact to change an election?

Maybe not, but maybe they could have... We always said that Romney didn't motivate the base, well, this is a part of Trump's base right? Maybe they squeaked out just enough votes to make it happen. I am not saying it did, but it makes me wonder.

[Dos Equis]

Some of the states were pretty close. We know there are about 915 hate groups in the US according to data, so if they can dictate just a few very close states, which there were a few right? Could they have made enough of an impact to change an election?

Maybe not, but maybe they could have... We always said that Romney didn't motivate the base, well, this is a part of Trump's base right? Maybe they squeaked out just enough votes to make it happen. I am not saying it did, but it makes me wonder.

We're talking about the KKK, not "hate groups" in general.  You realize the Southern Poverty Law Center has defined most of these hate groups?  They include, for example, any group that supports traditional marriage.  Even Dr. Ben Carson made their list. 

The KKK is a limp noodle.

[TuHolmes]

We're talking about the KKK, not "hate groups" in general.  You realize the Southern Poverty Law Center has defined most of these hate groups?  They include, for example, any group that supports traditional marriage.  Even Dr. Ben Carson made their list. 

The KKK is a limp noodle.

I'm not talking about the Southern Poverty Law Center and their definition, but you're right about me confusing 2 separate issues.

Yes, the KKK is very small and has a very small footprint around the US, but white supremacist groups, are, I believe, capable of turning an election if it's close like 2016 was.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not helping because I'm voting against pretty much everyone else, but that's just me. I'm not giving nor taking votes away to or from either of the big 2 parties.